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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 17, 2013, 09:07 PM:
 
Anybody tried the Nosler 40gr BT's on coyotes ? noticed a box on the shelf the other day, probably should have bought 'em if nothing else for sage rats.

Instead bought the last two boxes of Sierra 39gr BK's which shot well in my last 204, for rats, never shot a coyote with a 204.

Still not sure what to think of the Barnes match bullets ? Don't matter can't find 'em anyway.

Just curious..
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 17, 2013, 09:16 PM:
 
I haven't tried em myself but my cousin (usual hunting partner) uses them and loves em for coyotes but says with the damage they do on coyotes, he prefers his 17 Rem. for cats.

I do have a few boxes of them and will try them out due to the results I'm getting with 40 gr Vmax's. the boat tail will make loading much easier than the Hornady's.

The 39 gr Sierra is the reason I gave up on the 204 the first go round. Way too frangible.

[ February 18, 2013, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 17, 2013, 09:24 PM:
 
Dave I'm useing the 40 gr. V-max's at the moument in my 20x47 lapua and get 50/50 results as far as damage goes. Either get one hole in or a big splash. I'm moveing them along at 3900-4000 fps. and maybe if shot at a little slower speed they would'nt be too bad..(????)
I also have a full box of Noslers 40 gr. I was hopeing to get around trying next week if we get the big snow Thur. A friend recommended them over the Hornadys so we will see how they do...

What kind of Vel. does the 204 get with a 40 gr. bullet??
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 17, 2013, 09:38 PM:
 
Dave i was just on Sinclair's web site. They show the Berger 20cal, 40gr Match Varmit in stock in 100 rnd box for 31.99. I'm not sure if that is what you're looking for tho.

[ February 17, 2013, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 17, 2013, 09:45 PM:
 
I was kinda thinking with the flat base, or whatever it's called the Nosler might hold together better than the BK or V-max, hmmm ?

Might have to check and see how large the "meplat" is. I'm not a big fur type of guy, just like things dead.

The light recoil is certainly interesting in these small calibers. Oh yeah it's a nifty CZ American..BTW.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 17, 2013, 10:08 PM:
 
Dave i'm not sure if i have ever fired anything in 20 cal. I was looking for some Berger's in 6mm and saw the 20 cal 40gr bullets in stock. I think this is Tom's second go around with the 204 and i'm sure he has some good info.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 18, 2013, 07:57 AM:
 
from several guys i know that hunt coyotes with a 204, seems that either the 40 bt's and bergers are the best in a factory load.
i'd be all over a 204 "if" someone would come out with a mid 30's high b.c. bullet with a tough construction
 

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Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on February 18, 2013, 08:30 AM:
 
IMO...the Noslers are about the best for coyotes. I didn't like the 39gr Sierra. As said, way too frangible. The Sierras usually shoot some of the tightest groups though...
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 18, 2013, 08:35 AM:
 
Been running some 40gr Bergers at 4000 out of a 204AI. Works pretty good.
Had to get the dogs out to find a couple.
Pretty sure I can make any bullet or caliber look bad from time to time.

Will say I like the 40 bergers better than the 35 berger if just shooting coyotes.

Been fireforming with the 35's on cat stands.

Let me know how the 40gr NBT work after you shoot some coyotes with them Dave.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 18, 2013, 11:05 AM:
 
There he is: Cat Daddy. Vic said recently, (like last Thursday) I don't know why Kelly thinks I am his hero, he's killing a hell of a lot more coyotes than I ever did?

Me too. LB
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 18, 2013, 12:15 PM:
 
Vic,
Because you get it done without a bunch of fluff. You just take care of business. I admire that.
Plus thanks to LB’s campout I got to meet you in person and found you to be a true Gentleman.
Not many folks I say that about.

Stay after them
Kelly
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 18, 2013, 03:32 PM:
 
Yes, he is that. And, does that; and I consider him to be a good friend. And, remember, he reads this stuff every day so he's getting the message.

As far as the campout. Hell yeah, I have met some real good people at these campouts. Including Kelly and Vic. Never would have met any of these guys if it wasn't for the campouts. Worth it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 18, 2013, 03:52 PM:
 
Speaking of camp-outs..........
Last year's could have been planned a wee bit better. We didn't know until the last minute when, where or even if.
So.........
Might I suggest that we kick it around until, say, the first day of summer, after which El Bee (since it IS his board) can choose the when & where or pull a date and place out of a hat.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 18, 2013, 04:10 PM:
 
I agree, koko. For my two cents, I wasn't getting any feedback on anything, location dates anything and somebody said just pick it and let 'em scramble to make it but get something posted asap. So, talking with Clint, I just threw up my hands and said screw it, let's get it done.

I know it wasn't the best but better than nothing. This year we will do a little advance planning and maybe that will make the difference. Hope so?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 18, 2013, 04:26 PM:
 
I bet if I would of made it there would of been standing room only...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 18, 2013, 04:58 PM:
 
Yes, just like that attraction on I-10 between Tucson and Benson, called "THE THING". Some peeps would pay money to get a look at Tim Anderson. You need an agent?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 18, 2013, 05:02 PM:
 
i want to be first in line
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 18, 2013, 05:25 PM:
 
Would be cheaper to just come down here, but then again. Whats the price of a funeral these days.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 18, 2013, 05:35 PM:
 
I had half of Alaska here from April thru Nov last year. Tom and i spoke of it a couple of times tho maybe this yr? And Tom, Ryan is settled into his new place in Chandler and you are welcome there. But his shitty pool isn't heated! Or he won't run the heater for some silly reason.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 18, 2013, 06:51 PM:
 
DO it early to mid Oct if possible.
Things get real busy towards the end of the year.

I would like to see AZ again if Clint and Paul will have me...

Take care
Kelly
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 18, 2013, 06:54 PM:
 
Okie Dokie, I'm now on a search for Noslers, thanks for the help everyone.

I'll blow up some rats with the BK's this spring.

Kelly, I'm glad I held on to my 204 brass, was gonna ship ya some for free !! Lol..Didn't mention that @ the time though, did I...
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 18, 2013, 06:57 PM:
 
Thx Dave - I got plenty of Norma 204 brass now, along with 900 40gr bergers and 600 50gr Bergers.

But its the thought that counts.
kj
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 18, 2013, 10:44 PM:
 
Another good thing about the 204, components are everywhere.
 

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Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 19, 2013, 09:29 AM:
 
I've never tried anything but the bergers in both the 35 and 40, because I've never seen the need to. Both bullets seem to work for me, very well.
And of all the horror storys about surface spash resulting in run offs, I can't remember any of those storys including bergers. It was always some bullet in the 32 gr. size with plastic tips, every time.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 19, 2013, 10:42 AM:
 
TR - here is a post I made last Feb 17th with 35gr Bergers....Like I said above, I can make any caliber or bullet look bad from time to time...

Took a half day vacation, headed north and west in about an hour to hunt a contest tomorrow.

Had a little time before I had to hit the road, so went and made a cat stand about 4 miles from the house. At 11 minutes had a coyote coming hard. Barked it to a stop about 80 yards out. Perfect broadside shot, put it right behind the shoulder and touched the 204 off.
Coyote takes off into a herd of momma cow like it aint even hit. Foxbang has kicked in and pick my bottom jaw off the ground to see a 2nd coyote about 220 out. Take my time and make the shot right behind the shoulder.
Wait a few more minutes and nothing else shows, so I go down to look for the 2nd coyote and find NOTHING….go to where the 1st one was…Nothing.
Walk back to where I think I shot the 2nd one and make a big circle, while my mind is spinning as to what just happened. Still nothing.
Find an old bottle and set it up 175 yards out and walk back to where my sticks are. Get set up, press the trigger and watch glass explode in the scope. I KNOW I HIT THOSE COYOTES……
Walk back down to exactly where I shot the 2nd coyote and find blood and hair. Got a good blood trail for about 30 yards leading into a wide open area……no coyote to be seen. Make another circle and find nothing.
Load up and head home for the CRT – COYOTE RECOVERY TEAM. Get the dogs loaded and head back.
Dump them out where I shot the 2nd coyote and told them to hunt dead. Less than a minute they have it found. Coyote had doubled back and was dead under a log. I had walked within 10 yards of it and not seen it.



Took them to the last spot I had seen the 1st coyote and told them to find him dead. They started looking and I was walking to a plum thicket where I thought the coyote might be. No coyote, I see Pepper heading south at a good clip and then into a blackberry thicket. See a coyote come trotting out the other side. I think it might be another coyote as we are 700-800 yards from where I had made the shot. Pepper is hot behind the coyote, then Peaches and Tater is bringing up the rear. Coyote gets to the next blackberry thicket and I heard Peach squall. I knew the coyote had ahold of her. By the time I got there they had it bayed up and thinking it would be dead by now, I didn’t bring my gun.





Dogs had a good hold, so I waded in and finished it with my knife. Never done that before on a coyote, but it is what it is.

Contest pics add 50 points for team 4 SCORED





Not real happy with the 204, as I will lose a few coyotes every year with it, but it works so well on the cats, I still carry it. Both of these coyotes where hit behind the shoulder and the bullets appear to have splashed on a rib…. On the 1st coyote, I did catch a little leg meat, but no bone.

Wish me luck and think no rain for the contest tomorrow.
YAll have a good weekend and stay after them
Kelly

edit to add, you can see why this is one of my better cat spots. Tends to hold a few coyotes also.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 19, 2013, 11:43 AM:
 

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Not real happy with the 204

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It's more where you hit em than with what.

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What about...

A coyote standing in a position where only the last third of his body is exposed?

A shot where you have to shoot thru a little brush or grass?

A coyote running straight away?

These are situations that arise from time to time while calling coyotes. I have tried them all with the 204 with very dismal results. Then you have the perfect broadside shot like Kelly outlined and you gotta go get the dogs. One year was enough for me.

I want to be able to at least immobilize the coyote in every shot situation that might present itself. Guess that is why I use a cannon. LOL
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 19, 2013, 12:56 PM:
 
Randy - shot this one running away just at dark yesterday evening with the 204AI....the sub cal will still work, if you are lucky enough to break both hind legs with the first shot....lol



kj

edit to add I know TR has good luck with his 204, I think he has shot about 80 coyotes with it this year.

[ February 19, 2013, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2013, 12:56 PM:
 
First of all. Damn, coyotes are tough! If you don't smack them right, (and even if you do) they are going to run off, maybe dead on their feet, but without a pack of dogs, you might never find it.

On the one hand, I hardly ever need a coyote that bad to drove XX miles to get the dogs, unless it's a curiosity factor in play.

Second, for some reason, I never fell under the spell of the 204 rage. It's a "sub-caliber" to my way of thinking, and since .224" seems to do the job, I just never caught the sub-caliber fever?

But, like Kelly, said, there have been a very few occasions when my lower jaw hit the floor while watching a coyote run off.

in fact, AR Shaw saw it happen a while back. I was so shocked to see the coyote get up and run, I was very late in jacking another round in the chamber. As we both banged away, that coyote made a clean getaway and I caught some shit over my choice of firearm on that day; 223Ackley. Hence, the cannon I have been using lately.

It don't take very many of those lost coyotes to convince me. I hate to see one get away, and while not bragging, I don't miss very many standing shots. (missed one, complete miss, in front of Vic once, totally embarrassed, but it was because of my sticks and a borrowed stool)

Those two described above and one other would be the total number of run offs I have had in probably the last ten years. I suppose everybody will experience a heart shot that runs off, once in a while? That's a mind blowing experience and occurs rarely enough that I will always go check it out to discount what appears to be a complete miss, when it happens. Seems like those coyotes and cats run about 50 feet to fifty yards flat out and seldom drop where you can see them, so it looks like a clean getaway. I will continue to be fooled by that little situation for quite a while, I suspect?

But, when using adequate gun, you have to have confidence.

Then there is the deal that happened six or seven years ago. Vic is to my right and I'm sitting next to a big yucca, which blocked out the coyote approaching from my 8: o'clock. Then he stopped right in front of me about 50 yards and I put a 6MM middle of mass. But he ran off! I couldn't believe it and by the time I semi recovered, I flung a useless round over his head and that's when Vic nailed him at a dead run with a 17 or 19 or whatever he was using and rolled him-way out there.

That coyote had a big nasty hole behind the shoulder, and of course, you couldn't even see where Vic's bullet had finally anchored him, somewhere along the back? Humiliating to be backed up by a pea shooter when my cannon would have resulted in a clean escape, since I am not to be trusted on flat out coyotes beyond 200 yards, as this one was.

All I can say is, I remember shit like that long after the memory of routine bag/flops fades away.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 19, 2013, 12:59 PM:
 
Randy, that's why I had a 243ai built and have a 22-250ai on the way.

The 204 ain't perfect, it ain't my only choice but ever tear up a cat with a 243ai? That's where the 204 fills in. It's just big enough for coyotes and just right for cats.

No it won't work in all situations but take a high shot on the last 3rd of a coyote and spine him, he's down. Try for the back of a coyotes head if he's running directly away.

It is where you hit em.

[ February 19, 2013, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2013, 01:04 PM:
 
Hey Kelly, I remember breaking FOUR legs, once! Couldn't find him and the sun was going down on a big contest. I went back and sat down where I had made the stand and was searching through the scope and directing my partner.

Suddenly, I saw movement right in front of Pat and yelled out just as I saw the flash of the shottie. That coyote had laid there and let us walk all over the place until Pat kicked him out and he was wiggling like a snake or like a dolphin in the water, and seemed to be moving pretty good. It was unbelievable how well he was moving through the grass on his belly. Never forget it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 19, 2013, 01:14 PM:
 
They are tough and have a will to live, that is for sure.
kj
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 19, 2013, 02:11 PM:
 
Tom, I hear you. Don't get me wrong, I have seen a lot of coyotes shot with the 204, but he is a hell of a shot and knows the limitations of the cartridge.

For fox and cat only, I like the 17 fireball and only at ranges less than a 100 yards which is pretty much the norm when dealing with these animals. As far as I am concerned, it is not a coyote cartridge at any range. I have been down that road too.

Spine shots and running head shots.....I ain't that good. I need to aim in the center of something which leads me back to the cannon. LOL
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 19, 2013, 02:15 PM:
 
Yeah, but I have seen you kill a couple running coyotes that had already disappeared? Luck or skill?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2013, 02:56 PM:
 
I've seen and skinned out quite a few coyotes taken with a 204 out to about 200 yds., the cartridge did what was needed as far as killing the coyotes goes and it also seemed to work better than the 223 that the 204 owner had prior.. What I did'nt like about it was the performance of the bullets that he was useing at the time some good some bad as far as hide damage goes..

As for the 17 mach-4/17 F.B. its a heck of a good cartridge for Red fox out to about 300 yds when useing the right bullet, 25 gr./30 gr...
And if in a pinch works ok on coyotes with a 30 gr. bullet out to 200 yds...
The little cal.s can get the job done just like the big boys if you match the right weight of bullet to the size of animal you intend to kill..
Back in the day when Reds were plentifull I would of liked to have tried the Berger 20 gr. H.P. on them...
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 19, 2013, 03:13 PM:
 
I'm not too sure which is my favorite.

I am still a fan of the 17 cals, even when having some 25 Bergers go "POOF", and costing me a few coyotes. Maybe my Sako's barrel was getting rough. Using my 17-204 with 30gr Nagels has really restored faith lost with the 17, well the old Hornady 25gr HP's have always made it to the target too. But I generally use the 17 out west, not so much back here at home.

With the 20 cals, I've only used the 35 Bergers and when they work, they really work. I have had a few runners with it too.

Oddly, I haven't used a 223 much on coyotes.

The 6's seem to always work, but I am afraid to shoot a cat with one. So that leaves ole faithful, my 22-250AI. I just keep coming back to it. Even if it is a cannon.
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 19, 2013, 03:13 PM:
 
Leonard....100% luck.

quote:

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The little cal.s can get the job done just like the big boys if you match the right weight of bullet to the size of animal you intend to kill..

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TR - here is a post I made last Feb 17th with 35gr Bergers....Like I said above, I can make any caliber or bullet look bad from time to time...

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double lungs don't work for crap.

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Tim.....you will never convince me of that.

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Not trying to Randy, just saying is all..
But hey you know I got plenty of pic.s of dead coyotes, called or hunted...

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double lungs don't work for crap.
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I'm very interested to hear about this.

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+2
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 19, 2013, 05:08 PM:
 
while i don't consider myself a huge coyote slayer, i've taken a fair amount and so far, my 17-204 kills em deader and cleaner than ANYTHING i've used before. chest/lung shots are face in the dirt dead, most without a twitch. the more i shoot coyotes, the more i hate plastic tipped bullets
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2013, 05:09 PM:
 
The sub calibers for coyotes will fade away just like other fads, and I am serious about that. Sure you can kill a coyote with a needle gun if you are lucky, but why take the chance? Rifles that chamber the .224 caliber bullets is where coyote calibers start. The various 6mm choices are an even better way to go. Now even with a .243 it is important to choose the right bullet. Too many folks shooting gopher bullets at coyotes and wonder why their results are bad.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 19, 2013, 05:37 PM:
 
thats what i USED to think Rich.
a hot .17 with a good bullets flat out SMOKES em.
only trouble is with an ass (Tim) shot. not enough weight to get into the vitals.
here are 4 beauties that DiYi brought me to put up. he's a new 17 convert this year. he sure ai'nt complaining about the performance



the last pic is the only one with ANY visable blood showing. if last years results are repeated this year, these could all be 100+ $ coyotes

[ February 19, 2013, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 19, 2013, 06:23 PM:
 
I wish we had better coyotes. I was talking to my fur buyer last week and here in SE Okie land, there just ain't a market. Head West and things change significantly.

A buddy in Western Oklahoma sold 8 cats and a few coon for $1800, my 2 small cats brung $150 but it still beats our coyotes. Thus the 204 during cat season and cannons the rest of the time.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2013, 06:45 PM:
 

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The sub calibers for coyotes will fade away just like other fads, and I am serious about that.

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only trouble is with an ass (Bear) shot. not enough weight to get into the vitals.

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And like I told your dumb azz you can only push the bullets so fast and thats why I don't have a 17-204 or ever plan to have one built.... Maybe you'll figure it out sometime or have someone else do it for you...

I've put a few rounds in the back end of a coyote and had the same results as if I shot them in the chest...Dead...
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2013, 06:49 PM:
 
Tom you have a few random pic.s of some coyotes that are'nt all bloodied up???
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 19, 2013, 07:05 PM:
 
no Tim. you don't have a 17-204 because you've pimped your Pred so long, you won't admit there is somthing better. kinda like your WT.
you won't (can't) admit you're wrong.
p.s., hows your tooth??
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2013, 07:39 PM:
 
"And like I told your dumb azz you can only push the bullets so fast and thats why I don't have a 17-204 or ever plan to have one built.... Maybe you'll figure it out sometime or have someone else do it for you."
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So you have just recently figured out that a bullet of any certain caliber can only be pushed just "so fast? P.O. Ackley figured THAT out when you were just a baby. I have known THAT for more years than you have been even SHOOTING guns. You certainly are NOT in any position to call anybody a "dumb azz" WHEN YOU ARE THE KING OF ALL DUMB SHITS!!!! Now if you had any smarts at all, you would have figured out that if you had purchased a .243 in the first place, you wouldn't have wasted your money on needle guns. If you doubt that statement, just ask Kelly Jackson about his .243 and his 55 grain bullets for same. Callers who have an I.Q. above that of a chimpanzee, actually look at the result they are getting from their coyote rifle before wasting more money on the calibers that give questionable results. You on the other hand will NEVER do that because you don't have the smarts to realize when you are wrong. Do you listen when REAL coyote men speak? Hell NO! You just stumble along in the same old rut. I would feel sorry for you if you were not such a smart ass. There is no cure for DUMB, so we can't blame you for that, but the Smart ass thing could easily change if you just force yourself hard enough.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2013, 08:13 PM:
 

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So you have just recently figured out that a bullet of any certain caliber can only be pushed just "so fast?

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Now if you had any smarts at all, you would have figured out that if you had purchased a .243 in the first place, you wouldn't have wasted your money on needle guns.

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I still own a 243 Rich and had another one chambered in a Sako.. Yes I wasted my money on both of them and the 243 I still have has'nt had a bullet down the barrel in years. I don't need them to kill coyotes, as my needle guns work just fine..

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If you doubt that statement, just ask Kelly Jackson about his .243 and his 55 grain bullets for same.

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Do you listen when REAL coyote men speak?

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no Tim. you don't have a 17-204 because you've pimped your Pred so long, you won't admit there is somthing better. kinda like your WT.

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Is the 17-204 better and if so how???
You just admitted you have difficulty killing coyotes shot in the azz end and forward, I don't.. The answer is posted above. Oh! and your welcome..
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 19, 2013, 09:35 PM:
 
When hunting a contest I carry a 243AI with a 55 or 87gr.
KJ

edit to add, I like odd ball stuff and if I can find one cartridge that will kill hell out of coyotes and not blow hell out of a cat, thats what I will shoot.

The 6MM still rocks...lol
KJ

[ February 19, 2013, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 19, 2013, 09:47 PM:
 
Tim,

I doubt that you have known about P.O. Ackley's findings longer than me. At 72 years of age I have quite a jump on you. I will NEVER understand your attitude, and your deep belief that you absolutely know everything there is to know. That is sad. You either have never counted the number of coyotes that you punched a needle sized hole in that ran off anyway. I know that you have lost more than you will ever admit. Everyone loses a coyote once in awhile because of a bad hit or a poorly chosen bullet. If you really believe that your needle guns are superior to a .243, it is because you were using the wrong bullets. With a strongly constructed 55-58 grain bullet, you can drive those bullets to 3800 fps with a standard .243.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 20, 2013, 12:00 AM:
 

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I doubt that you have known about P.O. Ackley's findings longer than me. At 72 years of age I have quite a jump on you.

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You either have never counted the number of coyotes that you punched a needle sized hole in that ran off anyway.

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If you really believe that your needle guns are superior to a .243, it is because you were using the wrong bullets.

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Never said the 17 cal.s I use are superior to a 243 win.. I said as far as calling goes and most hunting conditions I can do the same with a 17 cal. that a 243 can do and thats kill coyotes, dead is dead and I guess in the 243 case the coyote is more deader..LOL

Some of my buddies use a 243,22-250 and so on, I don't have a problem with it and they don't have a problem with what I use as we both get the same results,"DEAD COYOTES".....
I kill just as many as them and the big kicker is I don't have to use as many stitches to fix my hides up vrs. there's...

[ February 20, 2013, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 20, 2013, 12:03 PM:
 
Boy I've never felt under gunned while shooting my .17 Tactical at called Coyotes. The 27 grain bullets I'm shooting at 4000 fps seem to put them down with no problem at all...Maybe I've just been lucky.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 20, 2013, 12:26 PM:
 
....or good?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 20, 2013, 12:36 PM:
 
Nah,probably just lucky. Now DAA and Vic that's a different story. They are Good.....

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 20, 2013, 05:54 PM:
 
I guess if you shoot enough of anything your going to have some "WTF just Happened" moments. Being just a recreational coyote hunter, I have gotten more of the WTF just happened, than I like. I should keep a logbook, and I just may starting now.

Anyhoo, If my memory still serves me correctly, I believe that most of my spinners and runners were hits pretty much in the middle on a side shot. I used to aim there for whatever reason escapes me, but forced myself to bring the crosshair further forward, basically even with the back of the leg when I get those shots.

Yep shot placement, the old adage following any 17 cal thread. I guess I was getting more liver shots than lung, hence more runners. Funny thing was I actually believed I made a perfect shot.

Maybe the old saying of "Too soon olt and too late smart" applies.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 21, 2013, 07:00 AM:
 
Needle guns, Baaah HumBug! Just last night I ordered a box of dangerous bear ammo from Buffalo bore. They are 350 grain jacketed flat nose "penetrater's in .45-70. Advertised velocity is 2000 FPS. Them oughta do it.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 21, 2013, 08:11 AM:
 

quote:

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They are 350 grain jacketed flat nose "penetrater's in .45-70. Advertised velocity is 2000 FPS. Them oughta do it.

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You like them flat shooters? LOL

I paid attention to Vic, he didn't know it, but I took notes.... BLUE DENIM, yep, I think that is his secret. Sorry Vic, I spill't the beans...

[ February 21, 2013, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 21, 2013, 09:11 AM:
 
Now Rich,
If you neck that 45-70 down to .17 you might have a coyote shooter.
A couple of old farts that hung out at the gun club up in Olympia were into black powder 45-70s & 45-110s. They shot some pretty sweet little groups at 200 yards with peep sights.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2013, 09:18 AM:
 
Yes, blue Jeans, probably Wranglers because that's the uniform, down there and the White Boots, wrangler type, don't know what they are called but that's all he wears, I guess? The ball cap must be a specific blue or gray color, as well.

But, I did notice that his camo shirt had a hole, a rip in the back that must have been 8 inches long? This was in a gray ghost type of camouflage, so if anybody has a spare XL they don't need, I know he would put it to good use.

About time he spent a day in the barrel, don't you think? Anybody know a story?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 21, 2013, 01:41 PM:
 
I might as well weigh in on this.Back in the late 70s,80s and 90s,I shot a 17 Rem much of the time and killed hundreds of fox with it in western Mn.The perfect fox gun IMO and I loved it.So much so that I had 3 at one time,Rem 700,Sako heavy barrel and a custom with Shilen barrel etc.Had a case of the 17s so bad I was all over everything involving them-even lurked around JH’s ‘Coyote Gods’ for awhile.As fox declined and I shifted more and more to coyotes in the wintertime I(we since I had 3 hard core 17 partners)learned it had definite limitations on coyotes.I'd estimate I shot maybe 30 or so but lost others,had lots of spinners,etc.We didn’t call much then but were primarily spot and stalkers and soon learned that anything beyond 300 was trouble as were ‘angled’ shots,runners,etc.I remember we tinkered a bit with loads and so on but best I recall there wasn’t much out there for bullets and the ‘big’ 17s weren’t heard of much so gradually all of us drifted away from the 17s.
Then Bearhunter got his 17-204 and I saw the results.Still maybe wouldn’t have messed with going back except for fur prices.Since he puts up my fur it quickly became apparent that my ‘blow ups’ weren’t acceptable anymore so mid season I started using one most of the time and have been very pleasantly surprised.IMO it’s the ideal calling rifle in most situations I deal with here.On the other hand,IMO it has limitations.Like,R Shaw,I don’t like limitations but with these fur prices I will try live with them.I will say it’s a joy to shoot and man does it shoot!!!Anyway,I guess I’ve shot 17 with it now.One got away,not sure where I hit it but it ‘felt’ good and yet….Most of the other 16 dropped like a sack of potatoes-rarely even a twitch.Enter front center,no exit,just drop dead.4 of them required follow up shots but suspect a couple would of required that follow up regardless of caliber.One was likely cause I violated my self imposed ‘limit’ of 375 yds.(2nd horizontal bar of my varmint reticle)That one sat at about 432 and barked,and barked and barked…I couldn’t even back out and it was clear my calling sucked as far as he was concerned so I popped him.Pretty good hit but had to follow up and finish him.
IMO anything on the move is potentially trouble.I had one pop up where it wasn’t supposed to and had to stand up,run to the crest of a hill,and shoot it running away.Hit the rear ham/thigh and knocked it down but clearly needed a follow up as I approached it.
So,with distance and angle limitations,IMO it’s a great calling rifle for ‘fur’.IMO the 17-204 wit a 30 gr Nagel at 4100 + is a considerably more lethal paralyzer than my old 17Rem with a 25 gr Hornady at 4025.On paper maybe not so much,on coyotes a lot.Good hunting.

[ February 21, 2013, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2013, 03:36 PM:
 
That's a good, honest report. And, that's what slays me about most 17 users, it's so incredible how well it kills, and how far out, etc.

I used one enough, back in the day to decide that it was limited, no matter what case it was based on, or what bullet used. I used it at night on coyotes and tried to limit the shots to 150 yards basically because we always had two or three others in the rack for longer shots, plus one set up for 400 yards and beyond.

But, I have listened and read more bullshit about seventeen caliber than a man should have to, and my mind is pretty well made up. Except for the fact that I tried to buy DAA's 17 Predator from him last year, I am sort of like Uncle Jay; I like to let them prime up before I leave 'em lay. Not really, I at least make a diligent effort to recover every animal before I dispose of them. I have not seen, much less killed a cat this season so I might be tempted to case one, if I have the chance.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 21, 2013, 05:29 PM:
 
Sure leonard a 17 cal. can be just as worse as a bigger cal when coyotes are hit poorly,especialy in the ass.. Copper tracked down four coyotes wounded this year by bigger cal. than mine. One of them was hit in the lower front shoulder and the other three hit back behind the rib-cage (azz). Poor hits are just that poor hits..
Learned a long time ago never to try and hit a coyote at center mass when it was running as most cases its going to hit farther back than you want..Seen it happen many times...
When I shoot at runners I'm aiming or giveing enough lead for a head or neck shot or a miss..
You miss just send another one there way and if they get away no big deal as you don't have to go looking for them cause they have a hole in there azz...
Call B.S. all you want on the 17 cal. but they can get the job done if a hunter knows how to use one to begin with... DAA vidio on his 17 pred pretty much shows the norm on how well it works for me as well...
Another thing I learned if your mind set is'nt right a guy would be better off without one as some have there expectations set too high....
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 21, 2013, 05:41 PM:
 
that was a good read DiYi and perdy much how i would have said it. i have maybe killed 100 with mine 17-204 and can't imagine a better 300 and under calling rifle.
i'm new to the .17 game (1 year) and always poo-pooed them just like Rich and L.B. than i watched DAA's video and had a few phone chats with him. it was he that convinced me to do a 17-204 over the Pred.
from what i gather from you "old timers" that dismiss the .17's as a legit coyote rifle, i think way back when, 25 grain hornadys were about the mainstay. now there are 30's and even 37's which i can assure you make the hot .17's shine. if shot in the chest, they POUND coyotes into the dirt, even at 400 yards.
some places DiYi and i hunt, the coyote bring 100+$$. i'll bring out the 22-250's and 243 for summer work.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 21, 2013, 05:46 PM:
 
DANS,

I confess!! It isn't actually for coyotes, and the rainbow trajectory is anything but flat. I think it is old age catching up to me. Even though I probably will never go Grizzly or Brown bear hunting, I thought it would be nice to have a load for the .45-70 that was a time tested Griz killer. After some research on the internet, I decided to give the Buffalo Bore ammo a try. I may buy some Hornady 350 grain jacketed flat nose "Interlock" bullets, load up a few and compare those bullets with the Buffalo bore ammo as far as penetration goes. I may even see how big of a tree I can shoot through.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 21, 2013, 07:42 PM:
 
Rich,
My brother is a big 45-70 fan. I shoot his Sharps and a lever rifle occasionally. It is a hoot.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2013, 09:48 PM:
 
Excuse me,

I'm on the phone, inquiring about lead time to get me a nifty 17-204 coyote slayer.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 21, 2013, 11:48 PM:
 
Save your money Leonard, I'll borrow you a 17 Pred. next fall.. I'm planning on getting another one built and possably a new barrel for the old one I have.. I plan on going with a long neck on the pred. vrs. the short neck..
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2013, 04:07 AM:
 
"Save your money Leonard, I'll borrow you a 17 Pred. next fall.. I'm planning on getting another one built and possably a new barrel for the old one I have"
-------------------------
Leonard,
Banish that guy to the consolidated pin head forum please.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 22, 2013, 04:09 AM:
 
DanS,

Take a look inside this link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s3ac7vuP5w
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 22, 2013, 07:32 AM:
 
I took my .17Predator along to Oklahoma last week and was very happy with the performance on a couple coyotes and a cat. I was sure wary of making sure I had a completely unobstructed lane to shoot through, which did limit shot making ability.

If I saved fur, I'd not carry anything else!
Took my 2nd bobcat with the .17 and it works like a dream.

If I was just getting on the .17 "hotrod" bandwagon, I'd prolly build a 17/204. At the time I became enamored with Dave's .17Predator, it was from watching his VS 4 video. And I wasn't aware of any wildcats off the recent .204.
Based on how well this rifle shoots and my very limited use of it on game, I have absolutely no regrets with the Predator. Dave was a big help in getting me started...
Little red @ entrance, no exit

Can't even find the entrance!


chest on, if it weren't for the red, you couldn't find the hole


Should add, I did have one 30Gold pencil through a neck @ 50yds. Exit was about dime sized, looked like the bullet hardly expanded? Coyote got up about 30seconds after being flopped & needed 2nd shot. Still scratching my head about that one???
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 22, 2013, 09:03 AM:
 
TA: I plan on going with a long neck on the pred. vrs. the short neck..

Tim isn't that just a 17 Tactical?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2013, 09:54 AM:
 
Or, is there a nickel's worth of difference between these chamberings?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 22, 2013, 10:13 AM:
 
LB,

There's really not alot of difference between the hot .17's.

I think the .17 Tactical has about a grain and a half more capacity than the .17 Remington.

The .17 Predator has about that much more capacity than the .17 Tactical and the .17-204 has about a grain and a half more capacity than the .17 Predator.

But that seems to equate to about 100-150 fps increase in velocity as you bump that grain and a half of powder.....

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 10:20 AM:
 
I don't know Chad, I don't have one..
All I'm going to do is make the 17 Pred. brass from 204 brass and leave most of the neck.. Its much easier also to make cases from the 204 vrs. the 223 parent case, as with the 223 case you have to make a false shoulder for fire-forming and the 204 you don't...
The only issue I have with the 17 Pred. is the neck length, its to short for useing 30 gr. b.t. bullets and keeps me from getting the bullet a little closer to the lands...
I like the shoulder angle on the 17 pred. vrs the 17-204 so thats one of the reasons I will stay with it. The other reason is you can only push a 30 gr. bullet so fast or its going to start to come apart or open too soon and you won't always get the penatration that is needed..
I've only lost one or two coyotes and that was because I was useing a fire-form load and other than that I see no reason to change what works..
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 22, 2013, 11:30 AM:
 
But you're gonna change it anyway?

To me, the 17-204 would get my vote for the simplicity of brass. You could always down load it if you wanted too.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2013, 11:36 AM:
 
I'd like to hear from Dave. Tell us about the pros and cons of the 20-250 versus a 17-204. What overlaps and where the other is left alone?

Observations and conclusions, applications and speculation. Come on, Dave, don't sugarcoat it, tell us like it is.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 22, 2013, 12:13 PM:
 
Leonard, bullet selection was the big issue with the .20-250. Finally did get that worked out, and it does everything I wanted it to do. Main difference between it and a hot rod .17 is that it isn't nearly as fur friendly (not nearly!), but also has more ass for anchoring coyote.

I've since moved on to the 6/284. It does everything the .20-250 does, except more of it. It is even less fur friendly, which is the biggest downside. The other negative, as compared to the .20-250, is recoil (and muzzle blast, I started actually wearing ear plugs on stand with it after one good morning with lots of shooting...). One of my goals with the .20-250 was seeing all my bullet impacts through the scope, which it does allow. With the 6.284, it's one of those deals where I see most of my hits, but don't get a real clear view of the misses. That is to say, recoil (with 55 gr. bullets at ~4300 fps) isn't bad at all, I only lose the sight picture for a fraction of a second and almost always see my hits going down and KNOW they are settled hash and I'm free to concentrate on other customers (which is important to me, especially with multiples). Misses though, which, honestly - not bragging, just the facts, I've only killed about 60 coyotes with this rifle and have only had 3 misses (and I killed one of those on the second shot anyway...), so small sample and all that. But - the misses, I don't see EXACTLY how/where I missed. That fraction of a second I lose sight picture is when the miss (or hit) is happening I guess.

In practice, it hasn't really amounted to anything. I know before the muzzle blast has ended whether I have a hit or a miss. And hits, it really doesn't seem to matter where or how, with that rifle, they ain't going anywhere. I've made some really poor hits with it that would have required follow ups with the .17 but they were just bang-flop with the Big Six.

My .17P is still my all time favorite coyote calling rifle though, for sure. But variety is the spice of life and I definitely like to try new things once in awhile.

With the fur prices I've seen this year, I'll definitely be campaigning the old .17 again instead of the 6/284 next year. That 6/284 is one wicked coyote killing machine though! Flattest shooting rig I've ever owned and hits coyotes like a sledge hammer. For the non-fur hunter, I think it is the closest thing to a perfect daylight rig I've ever used or seen used.

I think I've drifted from the question again...

- DAA
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 22, 2013, 12:15 PM:
 
Oh... I lied. That 6/284 is NOT the flattest shooting rig I own. Forgot about the .20 Dasher . 39 BK's at 4500 fps shoot seriously flat...

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2013, 03:35 PM:
 
Laughing...'sokay, Dave, drift all you like.

So, I surmise that I was not asking a valid question, comparing a 17-204 to a 20/250AI and you suggest that bullets are an important factor in the 20, right? Okay, so you have not experienced the 17 type blowup inside without an exit, in 20/250AI. Is that accurate?

We have had some comments here in this thread suggesting the 17-204 is suitable for coyotes out to 400 yards. Now, I AM NOT TAKING ISSUE WITH ANY STATED OPINIONS, I am just polling your data and experience.

What you are saying is; the dasher and the 2--250AI are more or less discarded in favor of a 6/284, right?

You know, I used a borrowed 6/284 25 years ago for a few trips, and even then I think the barrel was half shot out. I don't remember the load other than it was 80 grain Speers. That is my concern, I like practical performance and is why my latest is a 243AI, even if I might have made a mistake in specifying a 8.5 twist.

So, what do you think?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 22, 2013, 03:45 PM:
 
well shit......... i just averaged 120.00 on my red fox and 118.00 on coyotes.
thinking i;ll stick with the .17's
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 22, 2013, 04:27 PM:
 
Don't worry ElBee, my latest 243AI is an 8 twist so you can still make fun of me.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 22, 2013, 04:32 PM:
 
Can't argue with that kind of money. That's a lot more than I can ever remember for either reds or coyotes, and I go back a long ways. $80 bucks is the most I remember back in the early 70's. Damn, good for you, BH.

And, you attribute it all to your 17-204. nah, just poking at you. Glad t see a plan come together.

Hey, how's that woof huntin' coming along?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 22, 2013, 05:38 PM:
 
Bearhunter

I assume that was at NAFA??

Are those Canadian dollars before the exchange rate and commission?

Thanks
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 22, 2013, 07:09 PM:
 
wolf hunting sucked Leonard. hunted my ass off for 21 days,seen 1 wolf on posted property.
i thought going into it, it was gonna be like killing a coyote...... not even in the same league. smart sombitches. and yes, there is no way i would have got those prices if i were shooting my 250's, 243's.
bout fell off my chair when i seen what red fox brought. and i sold some earlier to a local buyer for 50.00.
when i was about 14 or so, 78-79, i shot a red with a .22lr. was a breeding pair and they were locked up got 76.00 for it in the round. that was some serious cash to a young kid.
Randy. yes, to NAFA. i stand corrected on the 118 for coyotes. ended up being 98.00 avaerge. had a scrub sell for 20.00 that knocked down the avearage.
thats U.S dollars before commish which is 11%.
still damn good for MN coyotes.
top lot went for 1400.00 (each)

[ February 22, 2013, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 22, 2013, 07:33 PM:
 
Tim why not just get a reamer with shorter freebore so your bullets can be loaded into the lands?

I went to the 17-204 for a few reasons.
1. It was different and I wanted to try a 30gr bullet.
2. Easy to ream out an already chambered 17 Rem barrel,
3. I have a bunch of 204 brass, simple to form 17-204,
4. and basically what Fred mentioned somewhere, I can get the same speed as the 17 Pred without the need to push the gas pedal all the way to the floor, giving me better brass life with lower pressures.

[ February 22, 2013, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 08:55 PM:
 
First off I don't buy reamers,its a waste of money unless you are a gunsmith to begin with...
My 17 pred. was set up with no or minimum free bore and the bottom of a flat base bullet is flush with where the shoulder and neck meet.. The B.T. tail bullet has a better B.C. than the flat base but because of the B.T. design you have less of it touching the neck walls and to correct this you either seat the bullet in deeper or you come up with a case with a longer neck..... The Pred. has a nice sharp shoulder simular to an improved cartridge so you have less stretching compared to the 17-204 and the shoulder helps keep some of the flame from burnt powder directed away from the throat, a longer neck would help here as well to reduce throat wear..
The 17 Pred. takes a little more to make compared to the 17-204, but also requires less maintenance to keep it running...

Also I don't believe in reduceing a load (down loading) to get a slower vel... If you want a lower vel. then get a cartridge that produces that vel... Example say you want a 22 cal. bullet to move along at 3000 -3200 fps(easier on fox), you could reduce the load in a 223 or you could just go to a 221 F.B. and use a safe max. load.. Same could be said for a 17 rem. and a 17 mach-4. 22-250/22-250 imp., 6mm HLS/ 243....

[ February 22, 2013, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 22, 2013, 09:40 PM:
 
Yep sounds like a 17 Tactical to me. Look at Todd Kindlers blog on the 17 Tactical second from the bottom.

http://www.woodchuckden.com/blog.aspx

[ February 22, 2013, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 10:20 PM:
 
Chad whats the length of the tactical from rim to shoulder.

Hard to tell but the 17 Pred has a little sharper angle and my case looks to be a little longer from the base to the shoulder and perhaps blown out more. I think there is a grain or to in difference, not that big of a deal..
Both are made from 223 brass and the tactical has the longer neck vrs. the Pred. and what brass was saved from makeing the neck shorter was used in the cases volume instead..
I still plan to use the 204 case as the parent case, just not going to trim the necks down to 17 pred spec.s..
I have made and use 204 brass in the 17 pred. but at the moument I trimmed the necks back to 17 pred. specs, but will do a chamber cast and see how long I can leave the next batch of cases..

In this pic. the 17 Pred is on the far left, as you can see there is'nt much neck there to play with as far as seating the b.t. bullet..

 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 22, 2013, 10:28 PM:
 
Yeah I see the difference.

The Tactical from base to shoulder is 1.415 and the Predator is 1.465. and overall length for the Tact is 1.755 and the Predator is 1.765

[ February 22, 2013, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 22, 2013, 10:41 PM:
 
Ok guys i have read about everyones favorite wilcat('s). Now i will post what the avg case capacity in water grains measured at the case shoulder.
223 Rem - 28.2 grs.
222 Rem Mag - 29.4 grs.
22-250 - 41.5 grs.
220 Swift - 45 grs.
6x47 (222 Rem Mag necked to 6mm) - 27.7 grs.
243 Win - 49.5 grs.
6mm Rem - 52 grs.
250 Sav (250-3000) - 43 grs.
257 Rbts - 54 grs.
284 Win - appx 62 grs (memory)
7x57 Mauser - 53.5 grs.
300 Sav - 46+ grs.
308 Win - 50grs (+ -)
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 10:49 PM:
 
The 17 tactical would be my second choice if I was going to start all over from scratch. I already have Pred. dies and my gunsmith has the reamer so it don't pay to switch at this point...
The 204 brass has been pretty good as well so I'm going to stay with them as well....

Been shooting the new 22-250 a bit, boy that sucker is loud compared to my 17 cal.s, the recoil sucks as well..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 10:55 PM:
 
P.P. 10 of those cases burn way to much powder IMO..

If you look at the pic. of varis cartridges I posted, these are some of my favorite wildcats and each has a purpose/use....These are mostly for coyotes...
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 22, 2013, 11:11 PM:
 
Any of the bakers dozen listed have a legimate chance to be named the only case ever needed to make the best wildcat.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 22, 2013, 11:23 PM:
 
As far as going easey on the hides 7 of those listed did'nt make the cut...

Edit to add: Correction 8 did'nt make the cut. I don't consider the 223 as a coyote round..

[ February 22, 2013, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 23, 2013, 07:53 AM:
 
Given that the 17Tac and 17-204 are straight necked down from their parent cases, this pic might help illustrate the difference in shoulder angle and neck length.
L-R, 20Tac, 17Predator, .204

 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 23, 2013, 08:22 AM:
 
Tim, there are a few of your opinions I differ with.

There are a few chamber reamers that my gunsmith doesn't have. That old benchrest guy does great work. If I give him all the parts needed, he will usually rebarrel a rifle for me in about 3 days. Sometimes as I wait. Plus he is way below reasonable on his prices to me. So I'll buy the reamer sometimes, instead of paying half like some GS's charge and I get to keep it and sell it later if I choose.

I still believe if you had zero freebore a BT bullet could reach the lands. I like longer neck cartridges so I won't argue that point, get what you like.

I'm not yet a full believer that the longer neck and steeper shoulder saves your throat. I just seems that brass is softer and has a much lower melting point than the barrel steel, whether CM or SS. Seems to me the brass would melt first and then wear out faster. But again I don't have a background in metallurgy or thermodynamics. We all know the throat does wear.

Loading down? I am not trying to load down the the 17-204 to 17 FB levels or even 17 Rem, but If I can safely push a 30gr bullet at 4K FPS or slightly more at reasonable and very safe pressures, it seems to work for me.

But in the big picture, you already have all the loading dies and stuff needed for your 17 Pred, and if you have your gunsmith run a neck reamer in to lengthen the neck on your chamber, and that makes you happy, then Freaking a Skippy, go with what ever floats your boat, buddy.

I actually like the 17 Tac or a longer necked 17 Predator, But the 17-204 is just so easy and uncomplicated.

Luckily for me, I have two brothers that are machinist/tool & die makers, so I get many special items done for free. It's nice. It makes my fondness for wildcat cartridges much less complicated.

[ February 23, 2013, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 23, 2013, 08:45 AM:
 
Sorry this is a crappy pic but these are L-R
17 FB, 17 Rem, 17-204, 204 Ruger, 223IMP



[ February 23, 2013, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 23, 2013, 09:11 AM:
 
The .223 isn't a coyote round???
That's good information to know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2013, 10:05 AM:
 
He has me convinced. Especially in an AR.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 23, 2013, 10:50 AM:
 
Dan,

I really like the looks of that .17-204....

If I were still using the 30 grain Golds, the .17-204 would be the way I would go...

Good Hunting Chad

[ February 23, 2013, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 23, 2013, 11:29 AM:
 
This fits this theme I guess.I lobbied Bearhunter that I should swing over to 'big' bores now cause fur season is about done.(and I'm sick of those 'barkers beyond 400.)Then this morning this guy shows up.Dam nice for this time of year-especially in SoDak.
First pic reminds me of a 17 hit.Flip it over and not so much.243 with 70 gr Nosler BT.He said 'save it' but he ain't happy.



 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2013, 03:52 PM:
 
That 17-204 looks really cool.

Cuzz has fell in love with his 17 Rem chambered AR since he's killed a few coyotes, cats and even a hog, it would drive him nuts if I had one bigger and faster... Of course it would be a bolt gun.

So 223's out of AR's bounce off of coyotes, good to know.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2013, 03:55 PM:
 
DiYi,
I knew it. I shot ONE coyote with a 70 grainer about twenty years ago and he ended up with a big hole on exit side just like yours.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 23, 2013, 04:39 PM:
 
gotta get DiYi's story straight. he was (suposed) have come up and hunt with me for the day. emailed me last night and said he could'nt make it. i'm quessing his wife is putting the screws to him for hunting/fishing 300 days a year
anywhoo, i replyed, no problem.
headed out at the crack of dawn and was in heavy fog till about 10:30a.m. sucks for spotting stalking. tried calling a few spots on the river in the fog...no luck. than the fog lifted and the fun began..
fox at 322 yards, 1 coyote at 280 1 at 330 and one at????. range finder would not pick it up but was 400+
did i mention i LOVE my 17-204
edited to add. all the blood is from 1 coyote i hit in the femoral and just threw him on top of the others. ZERO pelt damage on any



[ February 23, 2013, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 23, 2013, 05:33 PM:
 
Yeh,yeh,figures.And,thanks for sending your fog down here.
Looks like you shotgunned all those.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 23, 2013, 05:36 PM:
 
nooooo.... 30 grain Nagel .17 boolits in all of them
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2013, 06:34 PM:
 
Bear,
Man O Man that coyote in the middle is HUGE. Good job sir! Now I know you are trying to sell me on a .17 but ain't no way. I have a hard time even TYPING .17, let alone actually owning one.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 23, 2013, 06:42 PM:
 
your loss Rich
yunno, sometimes you old duffers need to re-ascess your ways..... DiYi did and he's REALLY diggin his little lazer
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2013, 07:32 PM:
 
See, that's when I start throwing up. If a seventeen works for some of us, that's great but I'm not in the mood to reassess my ways, since what I got seems to work satisfactorily. And then some.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 23, 2013, 08:52 PM:
 
Bearhunter,
I have been using the 30gr Nagels in my 17-204 also and have been having great results. Have not been able to stretch it out, my furthest shot has got to be under 150 yards so far with this cartridge. I won't complain about that though.

I wish I had stocked up on Chan's bullets. I have some 30gr Golds for when I run out.



[ February 23, 2013, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 23, 2013, 10:44 PM:
 
The bad-mouthing of the .223 kinda irritates me. It ain't an HMR and it ain't a 6mmAI. Use it within certain perameters and it's hard to find a better caliber. Cheap, easy to come by, WTF else can you ask for? Not for every application, but more predators fall to a .223 than any other, I'll bet.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2013, 11:17 PM:
 

quote:

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but more predators fall to a .223 than any other, I'll bet.

---

At some point in time, the only question is when..
Blow smoke all you want, I've seen what they can do in the right hands as well as the wrong with results being the same... The 223 is too big for fox if you save fur and too small for coyotes day in day out... maybe for calling its the cats ass but for general hunting I don't see it that way.. I can also see why most use it in a AR. platform, can't kill it with just one then give it another and another..LOL
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2013, 11:25 PM:
 
Jim just do what I do, every time I kill one with an AR in 223, I just thank The Lord for the good fortune he's bestowed upon me to be able to do what Tim and Leonard can't.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2013, 11:26 PM:
 
Okay, big guy, I will dance around my experience with the 223, if it will make you feel better?

But, all any of us can do is go by our personal experience and for me I had a problem with clean kills, and it's distracting. Maybe I just can't shoot but after a while, I decided it weren't fer me. Then again, at night you really can't afford to have an animal move after the shot because it makes recovery that much more difficult. And, I am used to a lot more gun and a lot better, more satisfying result.

But, if you like it, I'm happy for you.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2013, 11:32 PM:
 

quote:

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I just thank The Lord for the good fortune he's bestowed upon me to be able to do what Tim and Leonard can't.

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Yep you got me on that, but for some reason I can do it better with a bullet half the size and weight... Go figure..
Yeah I'm happy for you 223 guys as well...

Got a few kills today with the new 22-250 Savage and its all comeing back to me why i stopped useing one years ago..

[ February 23, 2013, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 24, 2013, 04:09 AM:
 
DanS. what powder are you using??. have you crony'd your load??.
i've got about 140 30's left. i've ordered some bullets from 2 different custom makers recently.
some 30's from H-G bullets and some 24's and 26's in an all copper from a fellow in Wy that turns them on a lathe.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2013, 04:14 AM:
 
Good luck with the solid Copper bullets,they won't work in most guns...
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 24, 2013, 04:56 AM:
 
DanS,
Cool lookin rifle.Is(was)it a CZ with kevlar stock?Any feeding issues with the magazine?Anyway,nice!

Also,assuming that is in fact 'mother earth' surrounding that coyote,can't imagine the sheer joy of not worrying about whether you need big or little snowshoes on your next set.

[ February 24, 2013, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 24, 2013, 07:22 AM:
 
Yep, the 223 tears em up and doesn't kill reliably. Wait, what???

 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 24, 2013, 08:22 AM:
 
Well had no trouble @ all rounding up the BT's 250 of 'em showed up yesterday, might get some more for the heck of it if nothin' else, I'll have a hell of a supply for rats..

Tom's right .204 stuff is out there while .224 seems pretty hit and miss, at least for what I want.

Now just gotta figure out a scope that doesn't look clumsy on this petite little rifle ? I'm thinking 4x12 so I can see rats @ about 200 yards or so..Anybody notice any closeouts on something decent ? like $200-300 dollar range ?

[ February 24, 2013, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2013, 08:38 AM:
 
Yeah I'm with Leonard and Tim on the .223. And I'm only speaking from my experience. I owned both the .223 Remington and the .223 Ackley Improved and had problems with killing Coyotes with both of them,sent both down the road along with a .221 fireball,haven't missed them one bit..... That being said I know quite a few guys that swear by them and not at them like I did. lol

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 24, 2013, 08:44 AM:
 
Diyi,

That is a factory CZ527 Varmint rife. I removed and added some wood here and there. Rattle can paint for that custom look. <LAFFIN> The CZ's have high scope mounts, so I added a cheekpiece. It is walnut, so It still falls into that internet "Custom Stock" classification. No real recoil, so not worried about cheek slap with this rifle.

I did change out the factory 17 Rem mag for a 204 mag and it feeds slick as deer guts down an ice hole.

That coyote was shot in an area one guy on the Coyote Gods called the "Armpit of Arizona". Though I hear they did get some snow there too.



JFYI, I am watching TV, the DIY channel, and I really like that Alyson Victoria, Yep she is nice.

Oh yea, I am using 28.3grs of Biggame and getting 4000 with the 30 Nagel.

[ February 24, 2013, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 24, 2013, 09:34 AM:
 
Well, if ignorance is bliss I must be one blissful sum-bitch. I've not only killed a shit-load of coyotes with the .223 round, I did most of it with a (gasp) Mini-14.
I've since upgraded to a Thompson Contender set up as a scoped carbine rifle. Short, sweet, accurate & lightweight........and it's a .223.
No regrets, but bear in mind that I think 200 yards is a really long shot. I prefer it when the fur buyer asks "Are those POWDER BURNS on that fur??????"
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 24, 2013, 09:44 AM:
 
Koko, what bullet ya shootin' ?
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 24, 2013, 09:51 AM:
 
Thanks.Sweet deal.I have a 204 CZ in the Kevlar and your mods make them look identical.On the advice of a friend I recently bought the only 204 back up clip I could find.
Had some feeding issues with the mag spring in my 17-204(Rem 700)and envy the clip feed.Think I have the issue resolved but that used to be an ongoing feeding issue back in the ol days with the 17 Rem 700s as well.The base of the spring is movable and has to be in the right place.A hassle and makes me always wonder if I'll have a second shot or not.Never had the issue in the 700s with any other caliber.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 24, 2013, 10:13 AM:
 
I have a question maybe some1 can 'splain to me.

Aren't the 22-250 at 300 yds and the 223 at 200 yds about the same velocity, assuming the shooter is using the same bullet? If so, wouldn't the 223 be just as effective at <200 as the 22-250 at 300?

Understandable that the 22-250 is much more powerful than the 223 at equal distances.
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 24, 2013, 10:56 AM:
 
Dan, the difference between the 22-250 @ 300 vs a 223 @ 200 yds using a commom bullet comes down to rifle twist and or quality of the barrel and bullet. An AR15 with a mass produced barrel these days tend to be in 1/9, 1/8, 1/7 twist rates. Throw in a chrome lined barrel + thin jacketed varmit bullets and stories start floating around about the users manhood.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2013, 12:42 PM:
 
Let's not get carried away, here. Yes, the 22-250 is marginally effective as a coyote caliber, if a man does his part. I long ago decided to transition to the 220Swift as it was just that much better than a plain vanilla 22-250 Remington. This is my opinion, which has not changed since 1975.

I don't think there is room for intelligent discussion as to the effectiveness of the 220Swift against coyote sized game. It sets the standard while anything less is a pretender. Sometime in the 90's I discovered the 22-250Ackley for which I give thanks because it exceeds what a Swift is capable of doing..........with much better case life; truly a miracle.

200 versus 300 is far too simplistic.

Good hunting. El Bee!
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 24, 2013, 03:20 PM:
 

quote:

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200 versus 300 is far too simplistic.

---

I honestly wonder how many coyote hunters can actually hit a coyote at 200-300 yards, say 90% of the time?

I guess using sticks and bipods help quite a bit, or perhaps a solid shooting platform or a ring mount on a truck.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 24, 2013, 03:35 PM:
 
Dave;
Not knowing any better, I've been using Black Hills Match Hollow Points.
Probably not the best choice but most of my rifle shots are in the 75 to 125 yard range. Vitals are usually bang-flops. Bone is invariably ugly.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 24, 2013, 05:22 PM:
 
A 200 yard coyote that stand broadside long enough for me to pull the trigger is soon a very dead coyote. Any further than that becomes iffy. I took my .22-250 to north central Nebraska once, and shot a 240 yard coyote. The shot was aimed at the rib cage, but the strong cross-wind caused the bullet to drift off course enough that it blew the top right off from top of the coyote's head. About a year later, I took same rifle to north Texas where the wind blows very strong. I guess north Texas thinks it is near Rawlins or Douglas Wyoming.
To shorten this story I will simply tell you that it didn't take long for me to figure out that itty bitty bullets don't handle strong cross-winds very well. I had a .25-06 built and my luck changed. I later had a Mexican Mauser built into a .257 Ackley. Talk about the King of the coyote whackers you need look no further than the .25 bore's with a good strong bullet. One small but important tip---Don't try shooting coyotes with an 85 grain Nosler ballistic tip at 3500-3600 fps.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 24, 2013, 05:34 PM:
 
yeah Rich. i've had 2 25's. really liked both of them. however..........
a good day here is 5-7 coyotes. an average day is 2. now at 100.00 a hide, i'll stick with the .17 thank you very much
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 24, 2013, 06:14 PM:
 

quote:

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a good day here is 5-7 coyotes. an average day is 2

---

I'm feeling really good if I get 2 in a weekend lately around here.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 24, 2013, 07:53 PM:
 
"now at 100.00 a hide, i'll stick with the .17 thank you very much"
-------------------------
Around here, the buyers don't dock you for quarter sized exits. But then again, they don't pay 100.00 a pelt either. Last of all, a dead coyote in the hand is worth a whole bunch of needle gun runners.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2013, 08:03 PM:
 
What's a "needle gun runner"? never experienced the phenomena. lol

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2013, 09:12 PM:
 
Chad, it's like a bad accident on a motorcycle; if you have not experienced it yet, you will.

Just kidding. Them 17's are like lightning in a bottle!

Leonard B
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2013, 09:31 PM:
 
I've heard that same thing about getting hurt on a horse.... lol

The 17's aren't the perfect coyote caliber by any stretch of the imagination. But for the intended purpose of harvesting fur with minimal to no fur damage,and used at realistic ranges(0-300 yards) they are hard to beat,with the higher B.C bullets though. Some people don't like them and that's fine,and some have never tried them. Some guys WILL NEVER find a use for the 17 calibers,just like I won't ever see a need for the OVER KILL of a .25 caliber for Coyotes... It's all about personal preference

Good Hunting Chad

[ February 24, 2013, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 24, 2013, 10:49 PM:
 
While I don't sell my coyotes, I have used a 25-06 and they don't even make for good pictures and I used them enough to know they ain't immune to the wind. So if you want to talk about the perfect cannon, one that comes closer to defying the wind, that would be one that would launch a high BC bullet of the 6mm variety or even better the 7mm. 25's need not apply.

But then there's the high BC .224 bullets...

We all have our favorites but I've been killing my coyotes a lot closer than 200 yards for a long time. That's why I like calling, to get em close.

[ February 24, 2013, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2013, 07:07 AM:
 
Well now Tom, if you were blowing big holes in you coyotes with a .25-06, it was your choice of bullets rather than the caliber. That is why I warned against shooting coyotes with 85 grain ballistic tips. I agree that 6mm bullets could well be the answer, but it would take something hotter than a .243 or 6mm Remington to beat a .25-06. Now the standard .243 with 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips may well make a liar out of me. I would love to see some photo's of coyotes shot by Kelly Jackson with his .243 and 55 grainers. I have some .243 ammo here that are straight from the factory 55 grainers bu I have not tried them on coyotes. I suspect surface blowup when you hit bone with one of those little speed demons. I am still in love with my .257 Ackley. With that rifle, I have been surprised by the lack of fur damage when shooting Sierra 100 grain "Pro Hunter" bullets. Can't even find an exit wound on most of them. Sounds nuts I know, but that seems to be the case right now.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2013, 07:10 AM:
 
Leonard,
This board is becoming a haven for needle gun shooters. How the hell did THAT happen?

 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 25, 2013, 07:49 AM:
 
Rich - I could go back to last year and show you a pile of them shot with the NBT 55's.
Still have a bunch loaded.
That bullet does some crazy stuff. My partner tried them and splashed several coyotes in a row.
Out of my rifle they work fine most of the time. I have had a few runners, but not from what you would think. My runners were from LACK of bullet expansion if you hit in the soft spot behind the ribs.

This year early I played with a 17-204 and I must have a bad barrel. Half the coyotes I shot splashed with the 30gr Kindler golds.
Killed a few with 25gr bergers.
Rechambered and tried again.
The 25 gr Bergers went poof at 17 Rem vel.
Pulled the barrel and chambered a 9 twist PacNor in 204 AI - cause I hate to trim brass.
It will shoot the 40gr Bergers over 4K and does an OK job on coyotes. Still get a runner from time to time.
Have some 50gr Bergers to try and it should shoot 55's ok. Will do some testing over the summer.

I save my cats and I have a line on a buyer that wants my coyotes, so I will work with the sub's the find what I need.

Have shot enough cats with the 35 gr Bergers to know it works good on them.
Will shoot fireform loads with the 35's on cat stands.
40's and 50's loaded AI on the coyote stands.

The sub's are fun and I like to shoot them when I can.
Kelly

edit cause I can't ype or spell.

[ February 25, 2013, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2013, 08:43 AM:
 
Well Kelly, it's a journey, ain't it? One thing I will say about the 243. I do not understand the 55 grain bullet? I started using a 6MM LONG AGO and while I did play around with the 60 gr. Sierra HP, mostly, I used 75/87 grain bullets. Yes, the velocity is not up there, but I shot enough running coyotes, drilled through the hips to know that they didn't understand the word, "surface blow up".

Right now, in my walkabout gun, my little Model 600, I am using a 56 grain bullet. Have been for three years now and until I manage to use up a hundred of 'em, I'm not changing. But, it's mostly an inside 100 yard brush country gun, at this point. That will change, as soon as I use up what I got.

I walked away from a 17 so many years ago because it just does not suit my style. I said, many times, that I never met a contest hunter, (or a night hunter) that used a 17 caliber rifle. Maybe Chad has discovered something, or he saves it for opportune situations, but it's not a sound choice, in most cases.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2013, 09:30 AM:
 

quote:

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This year early I played with a 17-204 and I must have a bad barrel. Half the coyotes I shot splashed with the 30gr Kindler golds.

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quote:

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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.

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If ya don't need a range finder, than surely ya don't need to worry about wind drift either! And surely at those same ranges, a pellet shooting rifle probably would have plenty of kick left to kill a little'ol coyote, don't ya think Rich?
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2013, 10:10 AM:
 
Leonard,

I couldn't agree more with your last statement. If I'm hunting a contest,or at night,or from March thru October I will always grab the .22-250 Ackley Improved.It kills them very dead,and I really don't care about the damage.But like I said it is really hard to beat the 17 Tactical from 0-300 yards for a fur gun,especially since I gave up the 30 grain Kindler Golds in favor of the 27 Grain Golds running almost 4100 fps. Seems to kill Coyotes very effectively with VERY little to no fur damage.NO SEWING......

The only thing you have to remember is they do hav e there limitations and for me it is the 250-300 yard range...

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 25, 2013, 10:13 AM:
 
I use the 55 NBT's in my 6/284. Haven't had a splash yet. But ginourmous exits are common. Very few without big holes on the off side. Even the classic facing chest shot - my personal favorite, especially with a .17 - with the 55 NBT's at ~4300 fps I usually get a huge hole coming out one, and occasionally both sides. No splash though - so far, the bullet has always gotten adequate penetration before wreaking ten different kinds of deadly havoc.

Lots of variables in play. Velocity, twist, distance - and, as Kelly mentioned and often under appreciated, barrel quality and condition.

I'm shooting them out of a Lilja that appears to be a good one, like I said at about 4300 fps, and, to me this is likely the biggest difference between my use of the 55 NBT and others - I'm shooting them out of a 13 twist. Whole 'nuther world from the typical 9 or 10, or even 8 twist most guys use in a 6mm bore.

And Rich... Don't sell needle guns short in the wind. Especially not if you are comparing them to mid weight 6mm bullets at "normal(?)" coyote calling ranges. You might be not just surprised, but shocked, to know that my .17 Predator, shooting 30 grain bullets, has NO MORE wind drift at 400 yards than a .243 Win shooting 70 gr bullets. It actually does a little bit better in the wind, than a .224 55 gr. being launched at 4000 fps.

For called coyotes, at reasonable ranges, a hot rod .17 gives up nothing in wind deflection to traditional varmint calibers. High BC fast twist rigs, 'nuther story, of course.

Same story with the 55 NBT's. Out to 400 yards, they don't give up anything in the wind compared to mid weight 6mm bullets. Maybe 1/2" difference, at 400 yards, compared to a 70 grain.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2013, 11:02 AM:
 
Well, first of all, Dave. I appreciate your input on this important subject. I very much agree with your choice on barrel twist, (13") specifically for the short 55 grain bullet.

But, getting back to the reasons for a 6/284, let's say rather than a 243AI or a 6MM Improved. You really feel the extra case capacity and resultant velocity with carefully selected propellants is the best choice? Is that in a 5R or a three groove barrel, and what's the length?

I'm just a tightwad with barrels. I don't like changing out barrels every year, (okay, a slight exaggeration) and I think a fast twist contributes to an abbreviated barrel life, all things being equal.

So, your reasons, (which I am most interested in learning) for the 55NBT is? Is it pure velocity? Do the drop numbers show better against a 68 or 74 Berger, for instance? I kind of like the 70Nosler Ballistic tip for terminal performance at 243 velocities, but am currently using the 74 Berger, with no negatives, thus far.

I know that you are uncomfortable with advocating, so you are excused of that. I'm trying to get inside your head about the 6/284, 4300fps, 13 twist and 55 gr. bullets?

On the other hand, me and everybody else would like to know how you arrived at this particular formula? Was it deliberate, or a happy discovery?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 25, 2013, 11:37 AM:
 
Rich at the time I was shooting 100 gr Partitions.

My 243ai with a 1/9.250 twist shot the 75 gr Vmax and they tended to be pretty fur friendly.

[ February 25, 2013, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 25, 2013, 12:36 PM:
 
Tim - I was pushing the golds 3900 to just under 4000. Got some 30gr Nagel's to try, but got pissed and ran out of time "cat season" after the rechamber job failed...so I just rebarreled with the 204AI.

Will have to look at my notebook on the 25's, but I was trying to duplicate 17rem vel.
Note: I poofed the 25's straight away at max vel out of a new barrel and a 17-204 full house load...

My next 17 barrel will be a 9 twist Lilja, but I plan on playing with the 20 cal as I bought a couple of barrels with the PacNor. So it will be awhile.
kj
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 25, 2013, 01:43 PM:
 
KJ, got any 30 Nagels ya want to get rid of??
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on February 25, 2013, 01:58 PM:
 
Not yet. I got all the 17-204 stuff boxed up and on hold.

If you get in a bind, let me know and I will send you some.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2013, 02:45 PM:
 
Are they not making the Nagel bullets anymore? I was wanting to get some 20 grain Match type bullets for my 17 Ackley Hornet, for cats and fox.

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 25, 2013, 02:57 PM:
 
Leonard, arriving at 55's in the 6/284 was semi-deliberate and semi-happy discovery. Call it a deliberate happy discovery.

The goal, setting out, was flattest possible trajectory for called coyotes. Another way of putting it would be longest possible point blank range, or furthest possible hold on fur. With the other goals of delivering plenty of energy, excellent killing performance and trying to minimize recoil.

So... On paper, the 55's looked ideal. Simply because they can be pushed the fastest and therefore give the flattest trajectory (calling distance trajectory) and the least recoil. But, without trying it, I didn't know how well they would actually perform on the terminal end. I've had some big disapointments in bullet performance when pushing the velocity envelope and was not going to be surprised if the 55's had turned out to be another. I also could not know, until I tried it, how accurate they would be in my rifle, compared to other bullets. And accuracy is kind of an obsession for me.

So... I went into the project prepared to "settle" for 70 gr. bullets, if I had to, but hoping the 55's would work.

Turns out, they did.

When working up wildcat data on my own, I always start with the heaviest bullet and work my way down from there. Just makes it easier because max. with a 70 is going to be a safe place to start with a 65, max with the 65 is going to be safe to start with a 58 and so on. I start with the fastest powder I plan to try for each given bullet for ths same reason. Well, this barrel shot everything pretty decent, starting with the 70 gr. bullets, but as the bullets got lighter groups kept sucking in a little bit. When I got to the 55 NBT's, they shot lights out right from the start. But then, as I worked up and the loads got hotter, the groups just kept shrinking and were still getting smaller when I reached max. and back off to a sane working load. I just love it when a barrel shows that it likes to run with the pedal to the metal.

The barrel is 25" long, plaing old 6 groove, in a #4 contour (heavy sporter). Because it gets hot fast, I only shoot 3 shot groups with it, but the working load with 55 NBT's at about 4300 fps puts all 3 into one ragged hole pretty consistently.

So I had everything I was looking for at that point, except I still wasn't sure how well they would really kill coyote. Like I said, I've had some disapointments in bullet performance, when pushing them real hard. Was not going to be surprised if these were prone to splash. But, with about 60 coyotes killed with it so far, it hasn't been an issue at all. That rig just hammers them down with a vengeance.

Who knows though, maybe within another couple hundred rounds a roughening throat will be all it takes to start getting splashes? Wouldn't really surprise me, but it won't suprise me if it just keeps hammering them, either.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 25, 2013, 03:40 PM:
 
Chad, from what I've heard Chan Nagel is having a hard time getting jackets. I think he was buying J-4 jackets from Berger, but something has happened ?

(edit) here's his contact info if you want to reach him. cenagel@bonnersferry.net

phone is (208)267-2860

[ February 25, 2013, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 25, 2013, 04:03 PM:
 
yes Dave. that is correct. i've talked with him on the phone and that is what he told me.
really sucks as they are (were) a fantastic bullet.
he could still get the jackets but only in a 100,000 lot and he said he's really not interested in doing that many as he's doing this part time.

ok Kelly. thanks.... seems to me a real handsome coyote killer from Mn sent a few to you a while back

[ February 25, 2013, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2013, 05:02 PM:
 
Thanks Dave and Bear thats good to know. Speaking of Berger,I'm getting DAMN sick of them. They are constantly changes or discontinuing bullets or changing the B.C to the point I'm ready to stop buying Berger bullets..... No more 20,22 and 25 grain Match 17 caliber bullets. Just the 25 grain varmint bullet with it's shitty B.C and light jacket.....

I'm thinking if I want to continue to use the 60 and 64 grain bullets for my 22-2250AI I better buy a shit load before they shit can them too...

Good Hunting Chad

[ February 25, 2013, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2013, 05:34 PM:
 
....and that's where I'm at with the .224" 62 grain Bergers. Of course, I knew they were a close out item when I bought them but I should have bought all 17 boxes.

I don't think it will happen, but if they stop selling 60 and 64, I am fucking lost!

By the way, I suppose everybody knows that Walt Berger, of Arizona has nothing to do with Berger Bullets, anymore? They are being made in California, these days. And, I don't understand their marketing, at all.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2013, 05:34 PM:
 
Berger stopped makeing jackets (j-4) for the 30 gr. bullets in 17 cal.. Most of the 17 cal . bullet makers bought and used Berger jackets.. Berger will still continue to make jackets for the 25. gr. bullet though...
I stopped useing Berger bullets when they stopped makeing the 30 gr. LTB in 17 cal....
Yeah they will make a special run of bullets or jackets for anyone thats got the cash which would be around 5000.00 or more in advance....
Maybe the bullet makers will pool together and get Berger to make up some more 30 cal jackets..

I hear there is a guy makeing solid copper bullets in 17 cal, I tried them years ago and had issue with them and like many others so a word of caution, just buy a few to try before you dive in..
A solid copper bullet is just that solid and not soft enough to form a gas seal when going down the barrel if your barrel inside dementions are a little over or you have deep rifleing...
You can measure the inside dia. of a barrel by running a 17 cal. pellet down the barrel with a cleaning rod or wooden dowl and then measure the pellet and it will give you your barrels inside demensions.. You'd be lucky to find two barrels to measure the same...
Back when I tried them the only way to get them to work sometimes was to measure the inside of your barrel and send them the demensions and they would make the bullets custom for that one barrel..
A solution to the problem is they need to put a pressure ring around the bullet torwards the base and hope the little bullet will stablelize when fird out the barrel..
Its been done before in .224 and other cal. for BR. shooting and I think there are still a few guys around that still make them.. Bullets with the pressure ring have much less material touching the barrel walls which reduces friction along with barrel wear.. I'll have to digg around as I may have some of these bullets yet...
For those that don't know what a pressure ring looks like its simular to what they call a belt on a Weatherby case....
As for the 17 cal. 30 gr. bullets I still have a few friends that stocked piled up on them years ago and they have been takeing care of me when I run short and my thanks goes out to them..

[ February 25, 2013, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2013, 05:45 PM:
 
Yeah Leonard. Walt moved shop to Cali. and had some other outfit make bullets for him under his sons suppervision I believe.. This took place back when Berger was still makeing the 37 gr. VLD 17 cal. bullets and they took a big shit when he moved, they never worked the same after that.. Now I think his son is still in charge and he caters more the the P.D. shooters and some of the match bullets for the military or big-game hunting... Still don't understand why he can't feed the coyotes hunters as well even though we are fewer in numbers...

Edit to add:
They also need to get that J-4 jacket non-sense out of there heads, yes the jackets are good for slow moveing bullets like used in BR matches but useless as far as a hunting bullet goes.

[ February 25, 2013, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 25, 2013, 06:11 PM:
 
j-4 jackets are useless???
oh Lord, another T.A. moment
i've shot about 100 coyotes in the last year using them and have seen more bang-flops with no damage than i EVER have with my 250's and 243

after 10 minutes i have to add: am I the only one who feels just a little bit stupider for reading Tims post??

[ February 25, 2013, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 25, 2013, 06:25 PM:
 
J4 bought out Berger many years ago. Actually, Spivco bought Berger and already owned J4. Then a few years later Spivco sold them both to Caran.

But, J4 is Berger, Berger is J4. Both in the same building and both owned by the same company. So I don't think they are going to be getting away from themselves anytime soon .

Walt had already moved to semi-automated equipment several years before the sale to Spivco though. The "real" Berger bullets, the ones that made Walt famous, were the ones made by hand, one at a time, with an educated elbow at the press. I still have a few hundred of those. But they haven't actually been made for, jeeze, I'm not sure, at least 15 years?

Got a bunch more no longer made, obscure but excellent custom bullets. More than I can actually remember, I'd have to look. Thousands of Starke .17's and .224's though. Few thousand Fowlers (made on Jef's original world record setting dies, before they started to wear out...). I even have 500 or the original 52 gr. Remington benchrest bullets Mike Walker had made. A lot of people think they were the most accurate .224's ever made.

I like bullets .

- DAA
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2013, 07:08 PM:
 

quote:

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Walt had already moved to semi-automated equipment several years before the sale to Spivco though. The "real" Berger bullets, the ones that made Walt famous, were the ones made by hand, one at a time, with an educated elbow at the press. I still have a few hundred of those. But they haven't actually been made for, jeeze, I'm not sure, at least 15 years?

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quote:

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i've shot about 100 coyotes in the last year using them and have seen more bang-flops with no damage than i EVER have with my 250's and 243

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Yeah the J-4 jacketed bullets work great for hunting and BR shooting at slow speeds but thats not the problem with them.. The problem is getting them to keep going down range in one piece after a gun has had a few hundred rounds down the tube.. If you think I'm yanking your chain just ask DAA or even Cal, they both have had some of the same issue I have with them in 17 cal and in 20 cal..
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 25, 2013, 07:45 PM:
 
hhmmm? still flopping coyotes at 400 rounds in mine.... musta got a gud barrel
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2013, 07:52 PM:
 
No, really. 400 yards, cold, degrading Minnesota performance conditions, and no runners? I believe you, but you might be living a charmed life, thus far.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2013, 08:08 PM:
 
Enjoy the flopps while you can, hard times are comeing..LOL
 

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