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Author
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Topic: Dial in or differ the load?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 23, 2012 03:06 PM
Alright, I am starting to feel like I might be coming down with something. Have been trying my damnest to go by something Q told me a couple years ago - The best way to get comfortable with 3 and 400 yard shots is to start taking 3 and 400 yard shots. Pretty soon, they'll be no harder to hit than a 100 yarder is now. It's what you're used to. - and have been taking some coyotes at some impressive ranges, even with witnesses.
About a month ago, I was hunting a small local comp with a buddy of mine and I'd successfully f'd up on four different coyotes that day. Knowing I needed to redeem myself in a major way, we were hunting what appeared to be the last setup of the day when he motioned me forward to where he could see up a primo drainage. As I approached, a coyote bumped out at about 350 yard and began quartering away and to the right on the other side of the big valley we were overlooking. He asks me, "Can you hit him from here?" I honestly didn't know if I could or not as it was a fur stretch for me. But, I placed my sticks, sat down, and took a few moments to find the coyote in the scope. Even at 12 power, he looked purty small. He was running at about 1/2 speed up the stair step hillside, so I wagged the range, pulled windage out of my ass and led him about six feet with a good 4 foot holdover before letting one rip. The next few seconds went about like this...
BOOM
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"Well, looks like you fucking missed hi..."
WHOP!
"Holy crap!!!"
I let Brooks gauge the range after it took us most of twenty minutes to walk from where we were to where the coyote had been standing and he agreed that it was easily all of 500+ yards, with a 22-250 Savage, factory barrel/ trigger.
Well, I bought me a relaoder. Nothing fancy and I'm fixing to work up a load that suits my rifle well. The stuff I've been shooting is grouping 1/2-inch groups at a hundred yards on a calm day, so with those POI's, it's been hard to convince myself to pull the trigger on the homegrown stuff. But, as I've been tumbling brass, measuring and sorting the good stuff from what won't work for me, decapping and learning how to use all the new toys I've got in the shop, I've been thinking. ACtually, I may be over thinking.
As I've said before, my neighbor is a former Army sniper. Between the talks we've had and reading a line of books like Lone Survivor and American Sniper (an excellent read, BTW), I've been over thinking some things.
For one, for now, I'll be hunting both the winter for fun, but always have some work to do in the hot months, as well. Knowing that my POA/ POI will differ due to burn rates, and that I'm using Reloader 15 behind Sierra Blitzkings in 55 grain, would it be easier to work up a good cold weather load now, and a warmer weather load later, and use the load that appropriate for the temps, or would it be easier to dial the scope in and out due to the temps? I'd rather have the loads than screwing with my scope all the time. It's dead on right now for the loads I'm using and I don't like messing with stuff that ain't "broke".My manual shows 3600 fps to be the max load, and I'm used to shooting a round that's chrono'd at 3500 fps at the muzzle. I'd like to keep that speed as I've come to gasped it real well as far as leads at range. Just wanted to hear y'all's thoughts on this.
Tear me apart....
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 23, 2012 03:39 PM
Just that maybe you are overthinking it, a bit? I know it is hard to read all the pros and cons and all the different reasons.
But, I have never felt a need for cold and warm weather loads. I have one load for each rifle I own.
However, I need to know how it performs in subzero and that it is SAFE in warm weather. In places where I hunt, I can easily see a temperature fluctuation of 85-90˚ during the middle of the day and in the teens in the middle of the night. Come on, do you really think I would change loads and zero twice a day?
But, I always like to be sure where I am hitting and that involves sending a round through a piece of paper or a cracker box once in a while.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 23, 2012 03:46 PM
Work up your summer load so you know where your at as far as a safe load for your gun.. Then give it a try in the colder month's and see what it does as far as vel. loss if any and how the bullet performs.. As far as coyotes goes at 200 yds or less you may not have to change a thing as it willbe close enough..
Now if you plan to take some of the longer shots you may have to turn the dials sooner or later so start getting used to it and check your zero often so you can get a pattern of how the gun performs in different temps. and humidity.. I think the super snipers keep a log of this, I don't...
Another thing you could do is avr. out the temp.s you willbe hunting in and do the load work-up dureing the avr. temp for your area...
My avr. temp is around 25-30 degrees and thats when I work up my loads for.. I don't hunt or shoot much in the summer but I do check my loads to be sure they are safe at that time and may reduce it a few grains if I have to shoot a contest..
Running around with two different loads is'nt the safest way to go about it as a load could get misplaced and then found again and you maynot know what it is...
I have a little gun range in the county and just make a habit of stopping by when out hunting to double check my zero as you never know. Some of the guys I hunt with just carry a portable target along and check there zero at least once a week....
Another way to get around the temp. issue is just have two guns, one set up for summer use and the other for winter.. good luck....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 23, 2012 04:49 PM
The good thing is you are already using RL15. I switched to it last year and my summer chrono readings ran 3833fps (10 shot avg) at 90 degress I think, at 50 degrees it was almost the same.
Of course I'm shooting the dreaded 50gr NBT but this year it's going in and leaving a quarter size exit on the few coyotes I've killed and one cat. I sent off for my custom CDS dial with this load info so it has to work now...
But I have noticed conditions other than temp makes a difference so I'm fixing to start playing with Ballistic FTE app for my I phone. It takes current conditions and feeds me numbers.
I know I had too much time on my hands when I was laid up.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted February 25, 2012 10:52 PM
I think you are going to like that app, Tom. I've got something similar on my phone and have used it a bit. The first time you're out and dial in the corrections it gives you and then actually hit something waaaay out there, you're gonna smile. The elevation has been spot on so far, but windage corrections given from whatever source your app uses to determine speed and direction will probably be hit and miss. Might be better in the wide open spaces of OK than it is here with the geography effecting wind so much. The app I use can be coupled to a Kestrel via bluetooth and THAT would be the shit. There are wind meter apps for these damned smartphones too, but I'm not convinced of the accuracy. At any rate, all this technology just amazes me.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted February 26, 2012 07:07 AM
I am no expert by any stretch, but here are a couple of things I believe are needed by long range shooters. A chronograph is mandatory, because reloading manuals are only giving what amount to estimated velocity. I would consider a scope mounted level also.
[ February 26, 2012, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted February 27, 2012 07:29 AM
I've got levels on my big guns.
I like & use my chrono, but still have to prove/disprove drops at distance. Exbal program has a "Trajectory Validation" feature that will modify the muzzle velocity to match the drops you are actually seeing in the field. The steel plate don't lie... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
I also gots me a Kestrel 4500, but don't rely on it much for wind. I'd rather take in the conditions a while, then call it...
The 4500 does provide both DA and station pressure (when altitude set to "0 feet"), for data input to your preferred ballistic program. Mine is too old to have the 'bluetooth' upgrade...
Have one load using RL-25 that is safe in summer. Last I checked, I'm losing ~45fps with a 60degree drop in temp for winter shooting. Which shakes out to adding 0.1 mil (one click UP) @ 600yds. No big whoop...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted February 28, 2012 03:39 PM
Lance,
My Savage Predator likes 35 gr. of Varget under a 55 gr. Hornady softpoint. Shoots around 1/2" and velocity is around 3,550 over my Shooting Crony. I don't hot rod it, as I am more concerned with how well it shoots rather than how fast it is going.
Varget is one of Hodgdon's extreme powders and you will get consistent pressure and velocity when it is cold or really hot.
I usually do my load work up in the late spring and summer and have found that there is very little variance in the groups when I start shooting again in late October.
I have been in the load work up room at Hodgdon, and they actually have a freezer and some sort autoclave thing to heat up the loads to 140 degrees. They go from the freezer/heater to the pressure guns to record pressure and velocity...it is really pretty cool.
[ February 28, 2012, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: booger ]
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted February 29, 2012 10:13 AM
booger,
I totally agree about the Varget powder.Very consistant regardless of Temp.'s. Seems like that's all I use anymore.It works great in my .17 Tactical and it worked extremely well in my .22-250.I really hope it will work as well in my .22-250 AI.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 29, 2012 10:46 AM
H414 deserves (at least) a look.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted February 29, 2012 06:21 PM
N-550.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted February 29, 2012 07:17 PM
Okay, Varget, H414 and N550.
Why? And why is one better than the other two?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 29, 2012 09:59 PM
22-250imp: N-540, Hybrid 100,, Ramshot big game, N-550..
N-550 canbe pressure sensative in some loadings...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted March 01, 2012 08:51 AM
Making routine kills at 300-400 yards,indeed takes practice. 300 yards is a good starting point, use the same setup you would use on a stand and see how accurate you and your rifle are. Most folks will find they have no fucking business attempting to shoot that far!
Unless you are shooting a "point and shoot" rifle, you need to know the distance.Otherwise, you are only guessing. Making a bad hit, only to have the animal run off wounded is unacceptable in my book. I see no one mentioned using a laser? And who has the time to range a moving Coyote? Unless you catch one standing out in a pasture or are stalking them etc, putting a laser on them and making elevation adjustments is not going to happen. If you are using a 22-250 with 55 grain bullets, you better know the distance out past 275 yards, if your at + 1" at 100 yards(better to be at +1-1/2"). 50 grain bullets, preferably Nosler Ballistic tips, will do what the 22-250 was intended for, flat trajectory. The 50 grn. NBT kills them just as good. One MUST know the velocity of their loads/BC of their bullets,etc.etc., to accurately use a ballistic program. Don't rely on book values for velocity.
Gary
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 01, 2012 09:46 AM
Gary, I use my Leica CRF before I start calling. I make a mental note of "my range limit" and go from there. The CDS dial marked out to 700 yards will be quicker than looking at a chart and dialing MOA when needed.
I've practiced a bit from 700 yards and am not ready for a shot on live targets but as in my running I'm not ready for a marathon either, it takes practice and training for sure.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 01, 2012 11:09 AM
All of which explains why some people seek a flat shooting rifle/cartridge/bullet combination. From experience, I limit my shots to what is possible for a couple reasons. But, I also like to hold on fur. This is why I have acquired a few Ackley's. I feel they give me a slight edge.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 01, 2012 01:44 PM
Most of the guys that competed in the Mr. coyote constest have no problem hitting a coyote out to 500 yds. I seen some pretty good shooters at both contests that I attended.
Ecept for Kelly, he pussed out on the 500 yd target... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Edit to add.. Some guys don't realize there are a few short cuts a shooter can take to still be on target out past 300 yds and still make a clean kill....
For coyotes standing side ways you have roughly a 6x14" target to put the bullet in...
With my BDC dial I just take a rough guess with the distance and dial the drop in and then hold the cross-hair even with the top of shoulder or spine. There is plenty of room if you should be off with your bullet drop...
[ March 01, 2012, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted March 01, 2012 05:42 PM
quote:
Making routine kills at 300-400 yards,indeed takes practice. 300 yards is a good starting point, use the same setup you would use on a stand and see how accurate you and your rifle are. Most folks will find they have no fucking business attempting to shoot that far!
Isn't that the truth?
I've seen too many missed coyotes at under 100 yards, I don't think 1/2 the shooters can hold 1-2 MOA with factory rifles in hunting conditions at 300.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 01, 2012 07:31 PM
You got that right Dan, except I'd up the ante a bit, more like 3-4moa, 3-400 yards is a hell of a long poke. I would guess I might have a shot presented at that range, maybe once or twice a season in Arizona. I see them way past that many times, but of course it's called coyote calling, so they come from out there, to the 40 yard mark, where my feeble eyes and boney elbows propped on my shakey knees are more likely to hit them, rather than just shooting at them:)
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 01, 2012 10:05 PM
As Q said, the only way to make long shots is to start taking long shots. That's why I have a few AR500 targets and am finding it a blast to hear it ring.
It can be done.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted March 03, 2012 08:18 AM
Most ball powders you will find to be more temp sensative than stick types. The extreme powders by hodgons does really work I have found them to have the lowest SD and not very much in temp swings versus other types of powders.
I would invest in a range finder and not go by Kentucky windage. I want more precision than guessing and guessing in more wide open country is far tougher not alot to gauge distance with, get a range finder, as you increase range the smaller your off with your "guessing" the more magnafied the end impact will be.
I want to properly place the bullet as much as I can and a good range finder I have found to be a must for consistant shooting. You can rnage objects prior to calling and know if they hang up at that rock, tree, hay bale etc what the range is or if they are butt sitters you should have ample time to rnage them.
Lastly get rid of the AR and get yourself a nice accurate bolt gun
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 03, 2012 11:21 AM
My coyotes won't cooperate! I have to guess at range or let them walk.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted March 04, 2012 09:57 AM
Mostly, I just rely on a rifle that lets me hold the same sight picture from 10 yards to 350 yards and hold on the back line if I think they are closer to 400 with no adjustments, no muss no fuss. Just point and shoot.
If they are far enough I have to think about holdover, I usually just don't bother. Especially when using the .17 since it doesn't have a lot of energy that far out. Every once in awhile though, it just feels right or whatever and I'll take a long shot. Usually when they are sitting on their butts facing me and I figure I have a lot of vertical target area to work with. Tipped over both of the ones I shot at like that this year, one over 500 and one over 600 yards. That was with the 6-284 though. Don't think I'd have taken either shot with the .17.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 04, 2012 11:31 AM
quote:
Mostly, I just rely on a rifle that lets me hold the same sight picture from 10 yards to 350 yards and hold on the back line if I think they are closer to 400 with no adjustments, no muss no fuss. Just point and shoot.
That is exactly my way of doing things too.
Also, I keep my scope power set on 10 day or night. Never change for brush or wide open. After a while a person gets an idea of how big or how small the coyote looks in the scope in relationship to the range. Your brain gets a mental picture and this comes in handy during the heat of the moment.
One more thing concerning attempting shots at coyotes at 300 yards or more.If I am laying prone, a staionary coyote at 3 to 4 hundred is in deep shit. In my opinion, there is no such thing as minute of coyote.
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 04, 2012 11:33 AM
cw,
My primary gun is a bolt gun. The AR is essentially a truck gun and what I use when the spot where I'm sitting offers 50-150 yard shots, and not beyond. Beyond 150 yards to "way the hell out there", I carry my big gun and for the record, I'm not new to the game. BTW, the AR is grouping <1-inch at a hundred and barely > 1-inch at 150 so its a solid shooter. Most days, I have the AR alongside the front seat and my .22-250 and 12 gauge in the carrier, grabbing whichever one the particular setup indicates. You've maybe noticed that I don't post as many pics with my guns in them anymore because I really don't want the cybercommunity knowing what I have for irons.
As for the range finder, I have one of those, too. My country very much allows me to sit down and range landmarks, whether it's a fence line, bush, drainage, whatever. I don't usually try to keep track of a bunch of landmarks as much as I range a 200- yard swath across in front of me and remember that and anything inside that line is hold on and anything beyond, adjust accordingly.
The purpose of my initial inquiry isn't because I'm new to calling or shooting. The purpose was because although I do 95% of my hunting in the cooler months, I will get calls when it is 110-degrees and humid as hell from landowners making good on my offer to show up any time of the year to help them with a coyote they want removed in exchange for land access. As a newbie to reloading, I'm reading material citing temperature variations of different powders, and from talking to experts in the field, I'm aware that there will be changes in pressures based on ambient temps and was just looking at whether or not I should have loads specific to summer versus winter conditions, whether that means loading different loads using the same components and varying the powder charge or working up a summer load which will result in a POI to match the zero on my rifle using a different powder/primer/volume combination. I would rather leave the rifle alone and vary loads than be screwing with the zero on my rifle all the time - personal preference only. I'm not concerned with the fluctuations I'll see on any given December day here, from 15- to 40-degrees, as much as I am concerned about variations from hunting in December (30-degrees) versus August (115-degrees), and if history is any indicator, I'll likely be out in both, and in between, ticks, skeeters and all of that. But, thanks for the good information.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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