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Author
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Topic: Can we have a serious discussion about shotguns for coyotes?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2011 06:15 PM
I was to the range recently, patterning my 835 for buckshot. I used a .775" choke and my pattern measured 21"WX28"H. Don't laugh. This was 41 pellet 3" shells #4Buck.
I think this is not satisfactory, but I am not sure if I need a turkey type tight choke, or just a bit tighter. The choices I have, on hand are .708", .742", .765", and the .775".
When they talk about tight turkey chokes, they generally mean used with maybe #4 or #6 shot, right? I wonder what these tight chokes do with buckshot? I'm thinking that I don't want too tight, and obviously, the .775", marked IC for lead and MOD for T & F steel, is not very encouraging since I can imagine a coyote being hit with no more than 8-10 pellets?
First of all, I really like #4Buck and I'm a tightwad on spending what they are asking for Dead Coyote, unless maybe during a contest. But, for casual killing coyotes with #4Buck, please point me in the right direction?
Somebody has already done this stuff. What's the story?
Then, (teaser) I will share with ya my second gunsmith project of the month.
Good hunting. LB
edit: patterning was at 35 long paces
[ December 26, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 26, 2011 07:35 PM
Leonard,
Nominal bore diameter of your 835 is .774 I think. Try your FULL choke tube with the #4 BUCK. If that don't suit you, take a look at the Kicks BuckKicker Xfull. http://www.kicks-ind.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=Kicks&Category_Code=Chokes
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 26, 2011 08:04 PM
I shot mine on paper just a couple weeks ago. I'm using a Dead Coyote choke and it's significantly tighter than yours, .660 I believe. I didn't measure or even concern myself with the overall size of the pattern. I am interested in how many pellets I get in a 10 inch circle around my point of aim.
Using similar 3" 4 buck ammo, I got 10 pellets inside that circle at 50 lasered yards and that's with a 21" barreled shotgun. At 40 yards that number was 18 and I didn't even bother to count at 30 yards. If I have a few or even several fliers that don't hit what I'm aiming at, who cares, as long as enough pellets DO hit what I'm aiming at and where I'm aiming them.
That little excersise gives me a little more confidence in breaking out the shotgun. I think I will still leave shots over 40 yards to those who are trying to sell snake oil.
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted December 26, 2011 08:16 PM
I have done a LOT of patterning with my SP10. My testing was done on my own handloads, from #4 BUCK to #F BUCK to #BB hevy shot and maybe even a few more Buck sizes. When I did my testing, I used 5 different chokes. I know it's not a 12 gauge, but I think my conclusions would be somewhat applicable to your situation Leonard. In my patterning with the above, I found that the tighter the choke, the better the pattern for me. I had been told that a more open choke might be better with large buckshot/hevyshot (due to possible deforming of the shot). That was not the case in my testing. Now, as anyone that knows a couple things about shotguns will tell you, not all shotguns pattern the same. So take my experience with my gun for what it's worth. My final conclusion with my particular SP10 was that it liked my TruLock XFull choke (with a recipe of 1 5/8 oz Hevyshot BB). If I were you, I'd go with the tightest choke you have and a few different rounds of #4 Buck (3" and 3.5") and see which ones pattern the tightest. I think your .775 is too open IMO. Rich recommended the Buckkicker Xfull which I've heard good stuff about but I have no experience with. You might call George Trulock also and ask him his opinion as well. That's what I did. He will even send you one and let you pattern with it and send it back if you don't like the results. (That was about 5 years ago though, so not sure if that deal is still available?) Another conclusion of mine is that, even with my 10 gauge shooting handloads, anything over 45-50 yards is real iffy for good patterns and penetration. And anyone that tells you otherwise, good for them! They can have their 50-60 yard hail marys!! I'm not going to argue with them. At this point in my testing I don't even know why I punish myself with the 10 ga. A 12 is good enough for the 40-45 distance I feel comfortable shooting at. I guess I just think it's cool that I have a 10 gauge. LOL And my shoulder has no problem taking it so WTH. Good shooting. Maybe Tim will come in soon and tell us all how to do it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2011 08:45 PM
Thanks for the replies, thus far. As Joel just said, I was under the impression that buckshot generally needed a more open choke, but what I'm reading above is that conventional wisdom is not necessarily true.
The reason for the .775" choke was that there I was, at the range, and I had not pulled this gun out since opening day on doves and that's what I had screwed in. So, I figured it is useful information, even if it tells me, (and it did) that that choke and that load in this gun isn't the best choice.
That buttkicker is a little spendy, Rich! $70!
Well, I will go back and try my tightest choke. .706". I completely agree with what Jim said about how many pellets I can get in the kill zone rather than the overall pattern spread.
When I start getting close, I might risk a few of my precious dead coyote shells. I also have some 3½" #4Buck but have not tried it yet. I did try some 2½" #4Buck with 27 pellets. Actually, it patterned about the same as the 3" 41 pellet#4Buck.
I need to go back. I have a big hunt coming up, need to be ready.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 26, 2011 09:27 PM
I've had good luck with 12 gauge, 3 inch, copper plated lead BB thru a full choke. It will generally roll a coyote out to 40 or 45 yards. If I take a shot out between 45 and 50 yards I plan on a double tap before I pull the trigger the first time.
The downside to the super tight 70 & 80 yard patterns that can (allegedly) be obtained is that when a coyote does a run-by in the brush at 20 yards, they're kind of hard to hit with shot that hasn't opened up yet.
YMMV
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2011 10:26 PM
Yeah, that's like I have used for many years, from the truck, (edit: at night) on a coyote that busts out of brush with little warning. I like the Federal 3" 2 oz BBs, and also plan on a second round, or at least keep an eye on him for a good while. But, that's a little different than what I have in mind here. I want to knock the snot out of him at a dead run.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 26, 2011, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 27, 2011 06:31 AM
Heck, I resepct the guys who take the time to load test their shotties, but that ain't my cup o' tea. I'll happily seek out & find the 'perfect' rifle load, but just won't bother going through that with a shotgun. The extent of my effort is to maybe try a few loads & pick the best of those. But that's it. For me, good enough is good enough in a scattergun...
That said, I do run Kick's chokes in my SBE. The "High Flyer" for waterfowl (steel shot), and the "Gobblin Thunder" for turkeyand the occasional predator stand. The GT choke has a .665" constriction and it flat peppers a turkey head at 45yds with Winny Supreme #5s. And it also throws cheapo Remmy 3" #4 buckshot in the same fashion. Don't recollect the pellet count, just that looked good enough to me at the time.
Never had a need to look for much better, and I don't carry a shottie on stand enough to warrant the effort. But again, I do admire the efforts of the guys who do. Lots of good info to learn from them...
Good luck, Leonard!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 27, 2011 07:23 AM
I keep reading about shotties and shottyguns. Is that what you use to shoot "yotes"? or "yoties"? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
BTW Leonard, I have always had the best luck with 4 Buck out of an improved modified choke. If you are using a shotgun at shotgun ranges anyway. I figure if they are past 50 yards they are in rifle territory. I want a shotgun for the hard chargers coming in close.
[ December 27, 2011, 07:28 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 27, 2011 08:20 AM
#4 buck will no doubt dirt-nap a coyote and do it with style. Where I have a problem with it is when a bobcat or a fox is spotted in the brush, facing you in the crouched position out about 35 or 40 yards. #4 buck just doesn't pattern dense enough to be a sure thing on a target the size of a softball. At today's bobcat prices I want a sure thing, therefore, BB gets the nod. I'll save the #4s for cougar at night.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2011 10:31 AM
Shit? So this is a friggin' Shottie? I'm with 3toes, next we will be talking about yoties, song dogs and cuticle softeners. By the way, Cal. Did you just buy yourself a NightForce? What happened to that Huskema?
Appreciate the info, koko. But remember, this application is 4 serious coyotes, or "yoties" if you will?
Next, I have to admit that I am far from an accomplished shotgunner. I hate to tell you how many shells it takes me to get a limit of dove.
Sooo, with that in mind, I bought myself a 552 EoTech. The only problem, this 835 one of the first 2,000 produced is not drilled and tapped for scope bases.
I ordered a universal base, actually, it is a heavy duty base for any Mossberg, and that brings up the concern.
I wasn't sure I could drill the aluminum precisely enough for the caphead torx screws included with the base. The screws are #8-40 and I just happened to have a couple although they are not real common, and the #29 drill.
I used some super sticky fiberglass tape and used a centering punch and went full speed ahead. I left it in place throughout the drilling and tapping so I wouldn't drift, if you know what I mean? But this is for keeps and I didn't want to mess up.
Came out very well. At the range, I only had to move elevation and windage two clicks to be dead on, at 35 paces, and it looks professionally done, and didn't involve leaving it at the gunsmith for three months.
I will post a pic in a bit, but this thing is super fast acquisition, I think I can get on a coyote a lot faster than before? The thing is, I don't miss a lot of coyotes with a shottie, but I'm kinda slow to get on them, and they can be out of sight in that time, therefore I thought this was worth a try.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2011 11:25 AM
I have a lot to learn about posting pics. I think I hate this camera!
Good hunting. LB
[ December 27, 2011, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted December 27, 2011 12:03 PM
I know im not telling any of you old timers....I mean experienced hunters anything new, but in the end its what ever you have confidence in...just like your rifle.
I shoot a lot of shot gun ammo in a year at birds. 3-4 cases of shells a season. The fact I have figured out is that you get used to a certain brand, size, etc and its best to stick with what works for you. I can go 10 for 10 with my favorite shotgun ammo and then have someone hand me 10 shells of a different brand but same size shell and shot...and I will go 3 for 10. It makes a big difference. Speed of shot and lead on a moving target are crutial for shotgunning. You change one thing and it will throw you off. Now granted birds are much harder to hit than a running coyote but changes can mess you up. Stick with what you are comfortable with.
Guess what I am trying to say is that for every gun you have to try every combination and narrow it down from there. Some people will have better luck with a less restrictive choke than others due to barrel length and shell selection etc. Same size shot and same size shell from two differnt ammo companies will pattern differently.
Some may not like it and I really dont care but I use steel shot. I use the same round that I use for all my goose hunting. Winchester Xpert 3" BB at 1550 fps out of a Briley goose choke. Bottom line I am comfortable with it and the shell/pattern ratio is what im used to. I shoot everything with that round. I know my leads on tagets at all ranges like its second nature because I stick with it and it patterns well for me. Ive killed coyotes stoned dead at 40 yards with it. Now with that said my limit is 30-40 yards and you have to know your limits to use any weapon effectively. I dont have to make many follow up shots if I get a chest/head shot out to 30-40 yards. Ive only had one run off that I knew I hit so far this year with my shotgun. Which is not bad for someone that shotguns half his coyotes in a season.
That 60-80 yard stuff is bullshit in my opinion.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 27, 2011 01:11 PM
El Bee;
The photos came thru fine, but all of the sudden I have to scroll left to right to read the whole page. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2011 02:18 PM
Yeah, sorry. That's what I meant by "I hate this camera". I have tried every mode on the camera, and the one I used was supposed to be message board friendly, but it's too big. This camera is 16 megapixtals, I guess to compete with smart phone cameras? If it helps, I find it as annoying as you do.
For jimbo: I hear ya, on the center and the payload, but What I was trying to do is zero the EoTech and for that, I wanted to see what the whole pattern looked like. I think it will make it easier when I come up with an adequate choke.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted December 27, 2011 04:19 PM
Resize the pics
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted December 27, 2011 05:23 PM
quote:
For jimbo: I hear ya, on the center and the payload, but What I was trying to do is zero the EoTech and for that, I wanted to see what the whole pattern looked like. I think it will make it easier when I come up with an adequate choke.
Maybe, but I wouldn't bet the ranch that the center of a "diverse" pattern like that will still be the center when you slim it down some. Should be close though, but sounds like you were already. It will be interesting to find out either way. Shottyguns ( for you, Cal) can be kinda fickle when swapping loads and chokes, as Patterson eluded.
BTW, don't be bitchin' about a $70 choke tube when you went all out with the sighting system. lol.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 27, 2011 06:35 PM
LB, I have 1 NightForce, but I have had it a while. I really like my Huskemaw and it is on my 22x47 Lapua and I have been shooting coyotes with it. It was on my 7mag all fall and killed 2 big antelope, a 198 inch muley,and a decent whitetail all with different trigger pullers. One antelope at over 700 yards.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2011 06:38 PM
Yeah, I know I'm just "ballpark" on the kill zone, but it should be close, as you said, no guarantees.
Anybody have a kick tube for a Mossberg they don't need? The damned thing already won't fit in the case it has traveled in for about fifteen years. I had to use a rifle case due to that big hump thingie. And, I don't have that many spare rifle cases that LONG!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2011 06:41 PM
Cal, I talked on line to a guy named Milo? who said you share the same gunsmith and you were interested in his NF scope?
Good hunting. LB
Man, bragging! All the time, bragging! lol ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 28, 2011 06:12 AM
Patterson, good point on using different ammo & screwing up your 'mojo'. For waterfowling, I used Kent Fasteel #2s, 1550 fps. That HV stuff didn't require as much lead as the slower velocity shells I had been using. Heaven forbid I switched ammo during a hunt, I'd start smooth missin' like a damn fool!
Leonard, lemme check when I get home, I might have an X-full choke for an 835 laying around. If so, you can have it...
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 28, 2011 08:49 AM
Wow! LB, No one gets anything past you! lol!
I am supposed to stop and look at a 2.5 x 10. But I didn't know the news had got to Cali already. I'm guessing I will be to cheap to buy it unless I can get a pretty good deal.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2011 10:42 AM
That's right, so don't try and get away with anything. You are being watched.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 29, 2011 08:41 AM
Leonard, I'm sorry. I must've given my both of X-full chokes along when I sold my 835. IIRC, I had a Kick's .680 GT choke for it...
I'm sure if ya called Kick's they'd pair you up right, based on your ammo preference.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted December 29, 2011 08:43 AM
Oh, and what's with the AR uppers in your pic???
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