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Author
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Topic: opinion's asked
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted June 19, 2010 08:11 AM
It's slow, I'm bored, time to ask questions.
I don't have the years nor the numbers than many of you have, so what is everyone's opinion, dealing with the 223 cartridge, used in a calling rifle setup.
I don't dislike the cartridge. It has made it possible to get brass for many wildcats I've played with, is basically cheap to shoot and pretty accurate as far as hunting cartridges, plus I have a few.
I know some feel it is inadequate for coyotes, however some believe the 22-250 is perfect or near to perfect. Wouldn't the 223 serve just as well if kept to 250 or so yards? Same bullet, and perhaps the same velocity at 250 yards as a 22-250 at 350? Or is my thinking backwards, being that the extra velocity of the 22-250 makes it so much better at the closer distances and marginal at the longer ranges? Then that is where the 6mm or larger caliber cartridges shine.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted June 19, 2010 08:18 AM
I've used both for years, IMO, to 300 yards or so there is no difference, especialy if your 223 is a 9 twist or faster. the extra spin enhanses terminal performance. From my experience, If I had to hunt yotes and deer with either a 223 or a 22-250, I'd pick the 223 hands down.
RR
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Born To Hunt, Forced To Work
Posts: 31 | From: WV | Registered: Aug 2009
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 19, 2010 08:53 AM
Ive stood around a few campfires and listened to more than one guy pontificate that the .223 just wasn't quite enough gun for coyotes, and just kept my mouth shut and grin.
The truth is, that within reasonable calling distance, and for most of us thats under 100 yards,or out to 200, the .223 is a great cartridge for coyotes. To say any different, one simply is ignorant, or doesn't know any better.Ive taken more deer with the .223 than I can count on my hands as well as antelope, and everyone fell over dead, so Im pretty sure it can handle a 25 pound animal without much problem.
[ June 19, 2010, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2010 09:24 AM
Yeah, well, I'm just kept my mouth shut and grin.
I don't just think, I know that a 223 is marginal for the type of hunting that I do. It's based on emperical studies, eye witness type stuff and in order to appreciate it, you have to use stronger medicine, as well as the cartridge under discusion. One's opinion cancels another opinion, sure enough, but I have seen perfectly shot coyotes fuss more than necessary, hit with a standard 223. Deer have nothing to do with the question, nor does it matter how many taliban have been shot and killed with an M4 or similiar.
HEY! I thought we solved this question years ago, and now some malcontent (instead of keeping his mouth shut and grinning) wakes up and stirs the pot!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2010 09:33 AM
I have been trying to unprove fact for a couple years now. I have been using a Remington chambered in 223Ackley and shooting the best bullet I have found, for the purpose of killing a coyote dead, the 55VMax.
A couple months ago, while hunting in Texas with AR Shaw, he "kept his mouth shut and grinned" at my chosen hardware. Until I dusted a coyote within 100 yards and after he rolled around a bit, got up and ran off like he wasn't injured, at all, but on three legs.
Mr Shaw didn't wait too long to tell me that he was unimpressed with my 223Ackley, and I "kept my mouth shut and grinned". There is a first time for everything, and once is enough, in this case, for me to form the rough outline of a half baked opinion.
A 223 is marginal for coyotes. Sooner or later.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 19, 2010 09:43 AM
I know that a .223 will kill a coyote, but then again, I've killed two Nebraska coyotes with the mighty .17HMR. Two shots - two kills. Doesn't mean I think it's a go-to round for coyotes. I also took a small whitetail buck with a Mini-14 the one year the state of Kansas let us use .223's on deer. Hit him through the neck on the left side and broke things down righteously. Doesn't mean I support either the .223 or the Mini-14 as a deer rifle. Fact is, it's been my experience that serious predator hunters are far more anal about their shooting than just about any other sportsmen's groups with which I have been in contact. Thus, if this discussion is to be had anywhere, this is as good a place as any for dependable conclusions.
I don't fancy myself the authority on guns as many of you are (far from it), but to me, I prefer a coyote gun that produces a good solid meat report that a guy can hear and really appreciate (which the .223 rarely does) and which drops him in his tracks, whether he tea kettles forward or does that stiffening up thing where they rock back on their hindquarters before falling over dead. I seriously appreciate both outcomes and just don't see that with the .223 like I do with the .22-250.
Now, interestingly, and as I have posted before, I feel that whether either happens is more a matter of velocity than caliber and this past year, I began killing coyotes with one round that left the bore at 3680 and finished with rounds exiting at 3500. I've been amazed at the benefits of that last 180 fps because the latter rounds seem to perform more like the .223 that I like by allowing them to spin into the ground. I also prefer the extra hundred yards or so afforded me by the 22-250 since our coyotes locally don't tend to always stop to take a parting glance until they're past the 200 yard marker. I've taken coyotes at 340 yards with a .223, and saw my partner this year anchor one at nearly 400 with a .223, but I wouldn't count on it regularly to go so well.
I agree that the matter has been all but talked to death - and will no doubt be talked to death again - and the last time, didn't it devolve into how the wildcatters were a socioeconomic rung above us box rifle lowlifes?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 19, 2010 10:54 AM
I suspect that the projectile used and how you load it has a lot to do with the .223's performance as a coyote load. Picking a lighter bullet at high speed like you might choose for groundhogs or prairie dogs could be a big mistake for hunting coyotes. A 52 grain Sierra Blitz King, loaded properly, will take care of Wiley out to 300 yards. I personally like it better than a Vmax. The 22-250 is much more effective from 300 yds on out.
A good comparison in another caliber is the .204. My grandson was shooting a 32 grain bullet and was experiencing a lot of coyotes running off. I started loading him the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King and he has had no problem on the last 25 coyotes he has shot out to 250 yds.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted June 19, 2010 12:25 PM
Dan, 223AI is the biggest coyote gun I have. I have had great luck with it shooting a 52gr AMax. Kills dead and mostly very little fur damage. Sierra 1365 55 gr GK works great too.
Im not sure a better coyote combination has been invented? Im sure there is, but I havent been exposed to it. I used a 243 for quite a while, but it blows em all to hell. I guess if I were hunting contests only, a 243 or 6.5 Swede or even 25-06 would be good. But those are pretty big guns for coyote huntin.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted June 19, 2010 12:48 PM
Nothing I've seen puts the smackdown on a coyote like a 6mm at higher velocities... I like to hear the "WOMP!".
I still like the .223 for it's cost to shoot and low recoil. Never owned or shot a 22-250 but fell in love with a friend's 22br, a 6br would be excellent coyote medicine!
I also like the 55vmax's and have seen many coyotes turned to jello inside using my 22PPC at around 3400fps. I agree that keeping shots under 300yds is important... that's why I like to call them in close!
I chased a coyote almost 2miles once after a 55vmax splashed on a front legbone and took off his whole leg just below the shoulder! He'd still be running if he had more blood. The shot went low and right on a quartering towards me shot. Even a 6mm would have likely had the same result. Now if I'd had an AR... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Nik ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) nut
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luckyjack
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3462
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posted June 19, 2010 12:49 PM
For calling, the .223 has worked great for me.
A 22-250 has worked great also. Years ago when it was all I owned, a .300 Win mag worked great, but was messy.
These days I prefer and use the .223 for a callng rifle.
Now I will just keep my fingers off the keyboard and grin too.
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better to be lucky than good
Posts: 41 | From: 4 sections North of Clem | Registered: Jul 2009
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted June 19, 2010 01:27 PM
Why limit youre self to 100-200 yds??? Shoot them where they stand..
[ June 19, 2010, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 19, 2010 01:37 PM
Three cents worth; (adjusted for inflation)
Far more inportant than a pissing contest over caliber, bullet, spin, & feet per what-ever;
(1) Knowing WHEN to shoot & when to WAIT for a higher percentage shot. This comes with experience reading body language & such.
(2) FIELD ACCURACY is not the same critter as benchrest shooting. Shooting a tight group off of the bench is fine. Making an accurate cold bore shot off of the sticks is final......and takes different skills.
(3) CONFIDENCE IN YOUR SET-UP. There's open prairie and then there's mixed scrub; use the RIGHT gun for the area that you're in. What works for me may not work so well for you & vice-versa. Doesn't mean that either one of us are 'wrong'.
All in all, I like the .223 for coyotes. The times that I've had problems with it have been my fault, not the rounds fault. Of course, if the fur marker doesn't come back, I may hunt this fall with an open sight 30-30 just 'cause it's a cool gun. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 19, 2010 02:07 PM
WHAT? Uncle ElBee thinks the 55 gr V-max is king and he scolded me for suggesting (and using) the 50 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip???
Oh well, ya I like the 223 even been using heavier bullets like the 77 gr SMK. Koko said it best, "There's open prairie and then there's mixed scrub; use the RIGHT gun for the area that you're in."
I used a 243AI last year and it kills fine but I just don't have much of the "open prairie". Got a 22-250 too but this year I'm going back to the 223 and in a machine gun or 2 or 3 for goodness sakes. I also like the 222 Rem and even ran the 17 Rem for a spell, they all work and they all can fail.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted June 19, 2010 02:57 PM
I have had front leg amputations with both 22-250 and 223 both were Quartering to me and I was aiming for a chest shot and missed both were the shooter not the caliber. Other than that not a lot of runners.Sumbitches run very well on three legs!
My son has dropped em stone dead with an hmr one shot in the boiler room but at 35 yds. after 50 yds I wouldnt take a shot with a .17 hmr. Niether would he. Right gun , right job they all work for their intended purpose , within the limits of their capabilities.
Except for the seventeen predator which is lethal at all distances but only in Minesooootah.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted June 19, 2010 03:29 PM
I dont want to get into a caliber debate, I'm pretty sure I'll never kill the amount of coyotes LB and Vic have..
It's interesting they have different thoughts on the 223 though. Good conversation.
A new hunter who doesnt reload and has a 223 I'd suggest shooting factory loaded 55gr sp's
For a reloader I'd suggest 55gr Sierra sp's number #1365 from what I've seen the #1365 is a pretty dang good bullet.
Is the 223 good or bad ? Dunno for sure,everyone seems to have different experiances, I guess I'd have to say its fine..It is what it is..
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted June 19, 2010 03:55 PM
I rarely ever hunt coyotes with the 223. When I di it is with the 60 V-Max.
All shittin aside, it kills em better than my HMR.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted June 19, 2010 04:18 PM
This is interesting, to say the least. Especially the conflicting opinions of some members.
The 223 is a cartridge I have rarely used. I do have a 223 AI. I had luck with the 60 Vmax, because that is the bullet Byron S. from PM uses, (OK I am kidding) and the Sierra 1365.
I went from a 243 to a 17 Rem, and then all over the place. Heck I have a 6mm-250 that shoots 1/2" groups with a 75 Vmax. Probably will save it for the coyotes down on the AZ border.
Dan Carey barreled up a sweet shooting rifle for me, and I'll start this falls season off with it, even if I have to bring out the needle and thread.
I could have my 17 AR15 rechambered to 17 Predator and really slay 'em way out there "where they stand".
I'll sit back, cierre mi boca, and do some reading now.
[ June 19, 2010, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted June 19, 2010 04:28 PM
On a side note anybody ever tried Bud-Light Lime ? Sounds pretty gay doesn't it ?
I've been doin' yard work and my sister in-law called and asked what I wanted for fathers day, I said a six pack would really hit the spot.
(Edit) I didn't specify any particular brand.
Well she just dropped off my present a day early, this stuff ain't bad !
What were we talking about ?
Dang I just hi-jacked the thread
[ June 19, 2010, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted June 19, 2010 04:50 PM
quote:
Except for the seventeen predator which is lethal at all distances but only in Minesooootah.
quote:
I could have my 17 AR15 rechambered to 17 Predator and really slay 'em way out there "where they stand".
It will work most anywhere,but you need to learn to shoot first..
Speed, flat traj. eliminates alot of the guess work and will up youre odds provideing you can hit the mark. Not everyone can and those guys would be better off with something a little bigger than the 223 so if they are off the mark a bit they can still mess them up bad enough to keep them from going to far... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2010 04:51 PM
Vic's just stiring the pot, something he has perfected over the years.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 19, 2010 05:13 PM
Not much on the lime brew, Dave, but that Bud Light Golden Wheat is somewhat dandy. As a matter of fact, a cold beer sounds just about good right now. BRB.
Now, as far as bullets go, how many and what kinds of bullets do I need for the upcoming revolution? For my -22-250. Might hafta buy me a machine gun. Just in case. Already have my Gadsden "Don't Tread On Me" flag on the front flag pole and I stand out front glaring at people as they drive by anyway.
[ June 19, 2010, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted June 19, 2010 06:43 PM
Ok I recant, this lime stuff is pretty girly.
I was hot and tired the 1st one tasted good as I took a break and posted. I went back out and a cloudburst rolled thru so I came in and had another.
Kinda tastes like Mtn Dew ? sorta ?
Oh' well I'll save 'em for the wife, she has about one beer a year, so these will be in the fridge about four years..Lol..
Lance maybe I'll take your advice on that "golden wheat" I'm home alone for a few more hours..Look out
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted June 19, 2010 07:14 PM
Well, I don't know if it's gay or not, but I am drinking some Wild Turkey and Honey. No, I didn't add the honey, it comes in the bottle that way...
Oh, and a Bud Light, I have to watch my weight now.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted June 19, 2010 07:30 PM
well for any game over 20 pounds, I steer away from v-max's, I like either a good ole soft point or a controlled expansion bullet. blow an exit hole in them and I could care less if they spin a bit or run, they still die. I shoot a case a year of 223's, I don't have a problem with them.
RR
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Born To Hunt, Forced To Work
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 19, 2010 07:32 PM
Bud Lite Lime is a lowsy attempt to take market share away from Corona, the most popular import in the US...
The whole reasoning for the 'lime deal' is debatable. For the most part, a lime in a Corona will mask the skunky azz taste that is has. Has something to do with the cheap, clear glass bottles allowing too much light through to the beer, which ruins the taste...
Always cracks me up when beer needs to be "ice cold" & marketed as such. Reason being is that the "ice cold" beer literally numbs the taste buds to the point that one can't tell how lowsy the beer really tastes! Great idea, though...
Oh ya (hijack over), waaay too many other 'cool calibers' to kill coyotes with, than a .223. But the .223 & 55gr SPs is what I killed my first handful of coyotes with...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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