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Author
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Topic: Twist rate for 22-250 AI
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 17, 2008 01:23 PM
Looking at tweaking the barrel on my Savage and going with a new one in 22-250 AI. Between 1:12 and 1:8, which would you use? Why or why not? I'm leaning towards increasing accuracy and bumping up the numbers on this 22-250.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 17, 2008 01:44 PM
Believe it or not, the twist on my 22-250AI is 1:14, and it handles most bullets up to 65 grain. You can go to a tight twist, but make sure you have a clear picture of what you want. What I mean is, don't get a 1:8 and then start using 50 grain bullets, which will overstablize them and possibly cause blowups because they are spinning too fast. I don't thing you need anything faster than a 1:12 twist for most common applications, unless you intend to dick around with very low drag configurations? And, if you do that, you are out on a limb, most normal coyote hunting situations will be less than satisfactory and you will blame the cartridge instead of your illadvised specifications.
Therefore, strictly my opinion, but I think that bullet selection in 220Swift and 22-250AI class of cartridges starts with 55 grain and pretty much ends at 65 grains, if you are shooting coyotes. Anything less, the jackets are thinner and the bullets are intended for squirrels, so they blowup if spun too fast. Anthing heavier than 65, you have a whole different bullet design, and not a very good killer of coyote size animals, near or far.
Good luck, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 17, 2008 08:23 PM
Thanks, Leonard. Pretty much spot on with advice I'd been given and how I was reading this matter, but I just wanted to hear some other opinions.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted June 18, 2008 10:24 AM
Here's something to throw in the mix before anyone buys a new rifle. CA just went no-lead in the new condor zone. AZ is voluntary. Idaho is thinking about legislation. The AZ ranger who oversees condor reintroduction told PVCI last month she'd been talking with some of the majors, and they're thinking about getting ahead of the curve and switching from lead to jacketed metal over the next decade to avoid any liability for lead and negate any more legislation.
I'm reloaded with all non-toxic ammo this year already, since I live in the zone. One thing I found about Barnes is they're longer than other bullets of the same grain weight. 250 and Swift shooters with the 1:14" twist are stuck with a 37 gr grenade or maybe an expensive 45 gr TSX which is a machined bullet, and nothing longer. Everything else, .204, .223, .243, 6mm, is already fast enough twist to stabilize the longer bullets.
If you think the lead ban might become a nationwide reality somewhere in the next 10 years - I happen to be one them who does - then you might want to get a barrel for that 250 that is 1:12" or tighter. If they start making a copper jacketed bullet with sintered tungsten-nickel like the Dead Coyote you might be ok with the 14 twist. But if the new bullets are like the Barnes Varmint Grenade, and use something less dense than lead inside the jacket, it will be hard or impossible to get some rifles to shoot those long bullets. I can't predict what's going to happen in the future, no one can. But lead is toxic and unpopular. Just trying to point out what might happen - maybe keep someone from buying into obsolescence or really expensive pellets.
PS - The 62 gr .243 grenade shoots some decent groups and costs about the same a Nosler ballistic tip. There are also some other new critter bullets 27 gr .204, 50 gr .223 grenades besides the 37 gr .223 that's been around a while.
[ June 18, 2008, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2008 10:57 AM
Gary, you should not cave so easily. It's a bogus issue. If you shoot an animal under 75 pounds with a centerfire, there is a good chance the bullet passes through. Rifle bullets are a straw dog.
The real problem is this incremental fuking bullshit. It means: no more lead shot and no more rimfires.
Personally, I am serious. The condors have lost the survival game and they don't deserve the millions spent to delay what is inevitable. Do you know how much will be spent to change the spans on high tension transmission lines in Sespe so that these stupid birds with a ten foot wingspan won't electrocute themselves? All the while the bastards lie to us with words like "could" electrocute themselves. As I have heard it, the biggest threat to condors is Golden Eagles......
Well, there's the conflict. Two endangered species. You know what they do with endangered Desert Tortoises, right? They have Rangers shoot another protected species: Ravens eat young hatchlings. Your tax dollars at work.
Good hunting. LB
Hey Gary, what's the BC of those copper pills you are using? Oh well, spare no expense, if it is some animal's welfare involved! We are so friggin' stupid it makes me sick!
edit: this LEAD HYSTERIA has been going on for many years now. Remember how it was a nice cushion on your intake valves before it got so dangerous they removed it from our gasoline and charged us extra? My parents used to have a 43 footer down in Marina Del Ray. When they banned lead paint, suddenly they had to haul out and dry dock annually to scrape barnacles from the hull. This is quite expensive, but spare no expense if it protects those cute little barnacles; or some crusader biologist tells us it "could" help. Prove them wrong. LB
[ June 18, 2008, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 18, 2008 03:30 PM
I'm confused.
Where do we get lead from in the first place?? I always thought that it CAME FROM THE GROUND. When I use a bullet or shot, it's heading back toward the ground, either directly or after spending some time in soft tissue mass. It seems to me that the stuff BELONGS IN THE GROUND when I'm done with it.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2008 03:54 PM
Yes koko. You have good reason to be confused. But, as with many other issues coming from the radical fringe, we can't counter their charges by claiming lead is good for us. But, it's not nerve gas, as is insecticide, it's relatively inert.
The bif friggin' lie is the claim that these condors eat nothing but carcasses left all over the place, pumped full of lead from our AK47s, and they ingest the lead, while avoiding bones and other hard items, but they quite stupidly (yum yum) eat every piece of lead bullet they can find. They can't prove any of this, of course.
But, isn't it better to be safe, than sorry? We already have millions of shotguns that can't handle steel shot, so this tactic should be viewed for what it is, another anti-hunter measure. We are going to lose everything, because it's the same argument as: "When did you stop beating your wife?" Question: is lead poisonous? Answer: Yes. How can you possibly defend a toxic substance? Sure, it has been around for a million years, and one or two babies suffered brain damage from eating the paint off their cribs, but Jesus! When are we going to stop overreacting to everything? These activist people are the most dangerous to our culture, more than outside terrorists. Our own misguided and brainwashed people are going to bring this country to it's knees.
end of rant LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted June 18, 2008 04:29 PM
Leonard, since you have experience with both the 22/250 AI and the standard 22/250, did you notice any difference in the way the AI version kills coyotes at normal daylight calling ranges over the Remington cartridge?
Thanks
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 18, 2008 04:47 PM
Well, yeah. But, I have way more experience withthe 220 Swift and my 22-250 Ackley performs way beyond the Swift, so that should give you some idea of my opinion on the standard versus the Ackley version. Besides that, I have always used much heavier bullets in the Ackley, which is the way to go, in my opinion. If you are a speed freak looking to drive 50 grain bullets at over four grand, then I don't know much about that? (I know you aren't thinking that way) Just saying.
So, the answer is that a 63/65 grain bullet from the Ackley is far superior to a standard 22-250 Remington, performing on coyotes. I still use both, from time to time, but the Ackley is in an entirely different class as a serious coyote chambering.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted June 18, 2008 04:59 PM
LB,
I give up. Ahnold doesn't want to see any more mail from me. I have copies of the condor/lead research papers that pass for science and I parsed them well and gave everyone some hell. The only thing I didn't do was make the trip to Sacramento. I probably did more than all but a few when I sent ~20 emails, 15 paper letters, and made more than a dozen phone calls to anyone who'd listen to me or had anything to do with the stupid new law. But the truth is that lead is toxic and truthier is that the deal is done. The law passed and its not going to be repealed. There weren't enough of us in this part of the state who cared enough to give a shit and do anything about it. Now I live in the no-lead zone. I'm just smart enough not to want to be the trial test case for a $500 first time cite either. Half my favorite stands are west of the lead line and I'll be hunting those with Dead Coyote T-Buck and Barnes Varmint Grenades unless something better comes along. The .243 stuff is done and as I sit here, I'm taking a break from reloading, having just a few seconds ago finished prepping ~300 .223 cases for a couple of sizes of no-lead grenades.
Now LB if you'll let me steer this back where I sure would like a small part of this thread to go, I'd appreciate anyone with any good advice and some decent reload sense to chime in with their nickel's worth about loading no-lead for coyotes, especially for the .22-250. Otherwise, the 250 is dead to me in this part of the state. I have a decent idea of what I'm doing, but I'm far from being on the reloader's cutting edge and don't want to be. There's got to be somebody else out there with some good ideas. So far I'm at a loss for what to do about 250 ammo other than the 45 gr TSX at 43¢ per. Or a 37 at 4300 fps. Both sound like bad ideas. If you're coming up to hunt around my place and all you've got is a 250, you're going to need to borrow a gun.
I've heard all the condor jokes. And the Republik of Kalifornia jokes too (pronounced like a cauliflower). Right now I'm looking for a little guidance with the no-lead and just trying to keep it legal. The BC and the Sec Density are going to suck, we both know that. Wade in here Dave, anyone, I need the help, moral support, anything but another condor joke.
62 gr VG - B.C. 0.199 Sec D. 0.150, and the .22's are less.
I redirected my activism at Boxer and Feinstein lately demanding we start drilling again off the coasts, the shelf, the keys, and ANWR. I just heard back from the right honorable dumb shit Boxer, and she says new taxes will cure everything. That is so wrong.
[ June 18, 2008, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 18, 2008 08:03 PM
I would load 15 or 20 rounds of no-lead stuff to keep in a box on the truck seat or floor board for perpetuity; then spend the rest of my time loading regular,safe and dependable reloads the way you always have.
Screw them; there's a way around most anything if you use your head. Keep three rounds of no lead always in your hunting stool or pocket to stuff in the rifle for the walk back to the truck or if you see a suspicious truck that might be the G&F, simply dump your good stuff and put in the phony stuff?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 18, 2008 08:38 PM
Leonard can you or anyone else expand on overstabilizing the lighter bullets with a fast twist? I have not found that to be a problem with a 223 and 1/7 twist barrels, of course there's probably 6-700 fps difference there and I do see the issue of a bullet coming apart. I just always figured a 1/9 twist would be the way to go to handle 55-77 grain bullets.
I would think Gary's point on all copper bullets like a 62 grain TSX bullet would probably need a faster twist. Has anyone tried the 62's in a regular 22-250?
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2008 08:22 AM
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, Tom?
The difference between a 223 and 22-250AI case capacity, means that you can drive a bullet from the Ackley fast enough, and generate enough RPM that the bullet explodes, in some cases where the twist is especially fast for the bullet weight. The thicker the jacket material, the less likely this will happen. Some people believe this is caused by friction, but it is a flywheel effect of over rotation. I have never heard of a 223 blowing up bullets, so you (probably) don't have to worry about that? That would generate a lot of ink in some forums; "I load my 223 so hot, I'm blowing up bullets!" lol
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS Vic, your suggestion sounds like a conspiracy to commit an illegal act? Lucky for you that Huntmasters has obtained much needed legal council that protects all members from liability, should they make unwise statements on an open forum instead of via email. Good idea though. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ June 19, 2008, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 19, 2008 08:44 AM
I was wondering more about accuracy with lighter bullets in a fast twist barrel, you said they would overstabilize and I guess I took that towards accuracy. Just wondering if you have run into problems in the accuracy dept.
In my 223's I have been playing with heavier bullets. I still like the 50's in a 223 but I always thought a 22-250 AI that would handle high BC bullets would be handy to have but not if heavy bullets were the only option.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 19, 2008 09:16 AM
It's not that (relatively) heavy bullets are the ONLY option. They are the logical choice. Especially for coyotes at moderate range.....they retain velocity much better (and kill better) than the light bullet that sheds it's velocity much faster because of an inferior ballistic coeficient. If you love light bullets, and hyper velocity, you don't need the case capacity of the Ackley. This is not a difficult concept, nor is it a matter of opinion, just facts. You should crunch some hypothetical numbers and compare the drop at various ranges; it's quite educational.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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