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Author
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Topic: 20 Super Wolfer
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 05, 2006 07:58 PM
Does anyone know anything about this cartridge?
Gary Strader posted on another board that his is a 22-250 Ackley necked down to 20. 45 -49 gr bullet at 4000 fps. No hold over on coyotes out to 400 yards.
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted July 05, 2006 08:25 PM
Rich,
Did'nt DAA announce a couple weeks ago that he has a .20-250 in the works,due to be ready by this Winter for Coyotes?I don't recall his is a AI?
He mentioned it was bit overbore,an AI would certainly be?
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted July 05, 2006 09:10 PM
Rich, the only thing that doesn't require any holdover at 400 yards is a laser beam. Bullets, shot from any cartridge, drop like a rock, there is no mythical "stretched string" trajectory.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted July 05, 2006 10:17 PM
Barrels are like tires, when they wear out, you replace them. That said, I do believe they should last long enough to work up a couple good loads and be able to fire at least 3-400 rounds for effect.
This chamber is way beyond the point of diminishing returns. The barrel life is nothing compared to a chamber which will shoot almost as flat.
Bragging rights to those who don't know better is all it's good for.
Jack
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 06, 2006 05:09 AM
Rich, I've talked to one fellow in California who has both the .20-250 and the .20-250AI, he's currently working with a new one he calls the .20 Cougar, which is essentially a .20-243 on the old .308BR case with small primer pocket. I also know a riflesmith who was played with both, as well as a Swift AI necked down to .20, and another 'smith who has been playing with the WSSM case necked down to .20.
The velocity range you heard is realistic. The general consensus amongst those playing with these big .20's seems to be that the current crop of Vmax and Blitzking bullets can't handle much over 4600 fps. I get that (4600 fps), with the 32 Vmax in my .20BR.
My new one is going to be just a plain old .20-250. Hoping for just over 4000 with the custom made 45's I have, or a solid 4200 with one of the plastic tip 40's or 39.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 06, 2006 07:31 AM
Berger makes a 50 gr bullet and Nosler is coming out with a 55BT. Will a 1 in 9 stabilize that?
Vic, I agree. But the man posted his computer program readout, so I had to wonder.
I really wonder about barrel life on these hugely overbore cartridges. A 243 necked to 20? The 284 has to be next. Twenty years ago I washed out the throat on a 22-284 before I got a good load worked up.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 06, 2006 09:10 AM
Yes, a 9 twist will stabilize the Berger 50, for sure. I know half a dozen guys using them in .20BR's. Not so sure about the 55 B-tip, but will have to "guess" that a 9 twist will work for it too. If it ends up needing a faster twist than that, it will not be a very useful bullet - kind of like the Berger .17 caliber 37 gr.
I'm not interested in the heavier bullets, or faster twists though. Defeats my purpose in building such an overbore rig. For my purpose (flat trajectory to 400 yds, sufficient energy, minimal recoil allowing undisturbed sight picture through scope), a better bullet would be a 37 or 38 gr., with the high BC of a plastic tip (say .270 or so), and capable of standing up to velocities above 4500 fps with good-to-great accuracy.
I'll try a couple of 45 gr. bullets, but will probably end up using one of the 39 or 40 g. bullets.
For me personally, on a rifle like this, I just don't care about barrel life. As long as I can get a good working load going, and still have a few hundred shots left to use on on coyotes, I'll be satisfied. If I actually end up getting 700 or 800 shots on coyotes out of it, that means I'll likely NEVER wear it out. Or, more likely, I'd start using it on some rock chucks in the off season so I could get the barrel wore out while I'm still young.
As far as not holding off fur on a 400 yard coyote... The trajectories are what they are. Take 'em or leave 'em. I know Vic does not believe in using a MPBR sight in, preferring a 100 yard zero. There will never be anything that will allow not holding over on a 400 yd. coyote with a 100 yd. zero. Hell, there will never be anything that will allow not holding over on a 300 yd coyote with a 100 yd zero.
All I have ever used, my entire life, is a MPBR zero, so to say I'm "comfortable" with using that system of sighting in would be fair. And to me, it's the only way of zeroing that makes any sense for a hot-rod cartridge.
Assuming my typical conditions (altitude, humidity etc.), and launching a 39 gr. Sierra at 4200 fps, I'll need to be zeroed 1.5" high at 100 yds to be dead on at 300 yds which will put the bullet only 2" low at 340 yards and only 5.5" low at 400 yds. This just happens to coincide with the MPBR on a 4" target for that bullet at that velocity.
There are quite a few cartridge/bullet combinations capable of the same or similar trajectory. It's pretty easy to match using a 6-284 with the 55 gr. B-tip, for instance. Cooincidentally, I'm having a slow twist 6-284 barrel chambered at the same time as the .20-250... There are plenty of other combos capable of equally flat 400 yd. trajectory. It's really not anything new or unique.
For that matter, the working load in my .17 Predator comes very close to that trajectory. That load, using a 30 gr. Gold at 4060 fps, I would need to zero 1.75" high at 100 yds, to be dead on at 300, which would put it only 6.25" low at 400. That's not how I have it zeroed though, as I employ a MPBR for a 4" target on all my predator rifles. So, my .17P is actually zeroed 1.4" high at 100, which puts it dead on at 280, and 2" low at 325 yds. It's more like 8" low at 400 with that zero. But I could get trajectory from it just as flat as the .20-250, if I wanted to use the 25 Vmax instead (I don't...).
Anyway... I'm looking forward to wringing out the .20-250 this fall and giving it a whirl on coyotes. It's going to be Hell on fur, so I don't plan on using it as an every-stand rifle. More of a special-purpose rig. Or, as Leonard likes to put it, just another club in my bag for those situations where I feel like having it will help.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted July 06, 2006 01:02 PM
DAA, as always, when you write about anything concerning bullets, barrels, bolts, ballistics, etc... its always informative and interesting. And easy to understand, even for an apprentice like me. You have the knowledge and a talent for it. The VH mag could use a guy like you on staff.
I also should add, that guys like you, Jack R, and S. Frame have many times given out valuable information that has helped people all across the country. Thanks to you guys for the contributions.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 06, 2006 03:28 PM
Amen to that Lonny.
Thanks from me also, Dave.
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rooster32
Knows what it's all about
Member # 61
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posted July 06, 2006 06:57 PM
Thanks Dave! Now I know exactly where to sight my 17 Pred in as soon as I get it.
Good stuff as usual..
-Andrew
Posts: 26 | From: Sandy, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted July 06, 2006 08:01 PM
quote:
Or, more likely, I'd start using it on some rock chucks in the off season so I could get the barrel wore out while I'm still young.
Dave,
I don't mean to sound like a suck ass, but I sure like the way you think!
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted July 07, 2006 09:08 AM
I will sound like a suck ass. When Dave gives out info it goes in my files.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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pup
Knows what it's all about
Member # 90
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posted July 07, 2006 10:57 AM
Dave does ROCK! thanks for the info, can't wait to ya get it!
Posts: 213 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 07, 2006 08:48 PM
Jeeze... You Guys sure know how to make a guy feel uncomfortable. I'm just an inflicted gun nut, with the remnants of a decent vocabulary. I do appreciate the kind words, really, I do. But they do make me mighty Damn uncomfortable. I've always thought that the next worst thing to getting negative attention, is getting positive attention. Mr. Frame has undoubtedly forgot more about this stuff than I've even seen. And Jack has years and years of experience in areas I've never messed with at all.
I sincerely thank you All for your encouragement, it really does mean a lot, coming from you Guys.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted July 07, 2006 09:29 PM
I sure don't know much because for years I thought DAA stood for Double Action Army. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Jack
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted July 08, 2006 07:28 AM
That's funny Jack.......me too!
I first saw Dave post eons ago on the Go Go board - I was always amazed that a guy with a double action army moniker was always posting such detailed rifle information.
I was anxiously awaiting his first post about a daa - I figured anybody that knew that much about rifles, but wanted to be known by the name of a revolver, could write the "bible" of revolver posts.
I don't want to increase the discomfort level. I'll just say that there are some sources of knowledge and opinion that should always be carefully read, and let it go at that.
Now, if he'd just post that damned daa disertation! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted July 08, 2006 07:48 AM
Double Action Army can't help it if his Dad loved that name. I believe "Dave" is just a nickname he called himself in adulthood. As for revolvers, he probably didn't have much use for one. That doesn't necessarily mean that he don't know how to use em. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted July 08, 2006 02:02 PM
That's some funny stuff.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 08, 2006 10:39 PM
Dittos all around. Dave knows his shit, and Varmint Hunter should hire him! He's a little exotic, but he sure knows what he wants to do, and how to go about it. It's amazing, how many people don't .
Good hunting. LB
Oh, I forgot to say something about Gary Strader......yawn.
[ July 08, 2006, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 09, 2006 07:19 AM
LOL
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted July 11, 2006 09:05 AM
I sure don't know much because for years I thought DAA stood for Dave and then a couple of A initials! LOL
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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