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Author
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Topic: confess or refute
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 08, 2004 11:42 AM
Have you ever been let down by 223 performance?
Forget bullets and other caliber choices, for a minute. Do you have absolute confidence, or have you ever lost what should have been a routine kill?
Let me state, for the record; I have lost animals with more powerful cartridges. I want to know if you are sold on the 223 Remington as a perfect coyote killer.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted April 08, 2004 02:48 PM
Sold on it .....YES...... Perfect round ......No...... but what is the perfect round really ...... some have a longer effective range, some have a MUCH longer effective range, the long distance hitters tend to be harder on close in coyotes. Then there are the close in hitters, these are good for close coyotes and fox and they tend to be quieter making them neighbor friendly. It's my view that the perfect cartridge is prefect when held in a very narrow field, outside of that field they are to powerful, to weak, to loud, to much or to little.
A few years ago I built what then was going to be a fox gun, 22" 223 rem. on a Ruger #3. The gun and my prefered load proved to be VERY rough on foxes, but at reasonable ranges would flat dump a coyote. This turned into my rifle of choice and its hard to grab anything else anymore. Even when a bigger rifle would probably do a better job.
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted April 08, 2004 04:05 PM
I have an opinion, but most .223 guys ain't gonna like it. I have seen more follow ups required with a .223 than all other varmint calibers combined. It isn't enough gun. I have one, and I kill coyotes with it, but am not impressed with the actual killing power. It just doesn't seem to have the poop to send that "shock wave" effect through a coyote. You guys that have shot alot of coyotes know the one I mean. The one where the whole body goes stiff for an instant when they are on the way to the ground.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 08, 2004 04:50 PM
Cal, I hate to totally give away my position right up front, because some folks out there probably think I don't want to be argued with, which is far removed from the truth of the matter. I simply enjoy the dialogue, and find the debate stimulating.
But, buddy. (gulp) You nailed it for me.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 08, 2004 06:42 PM
I've shot more coyotes with a .223 than any of the other calibres I own. I have absolute confidence in my rifle-caliber-bullet combo. Tyler uses a .223 almost exclusively (he uses the K-hornet for settled areas) and he hasn't ever lost one that he shot with it. Granted, it does not blow the coyote stiff as the hotter numbers do and we take 90% of our shots whithin 50-60 yards, but Tyler took one at 350 + yards this year and I've taken a few at extended ranges with the proper performance results. I used a 6MM JDJ for the competition hunts this year because I just wanted it done with. Kinda like Hitman243, who says he uses a 95 gr Nosler BT in his 243 "Because I want a hole in the coyote big enough to stick my boot in." If I were to switch barrels to my .223 I would still carry it on stand with absolute confidence. If I were hunting terrain like Cal or Q and 350 plus yard shots were not uncommon I would carry my 22-250 AI or .243, something with more downrange punch.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 08, 2004 08:36 PM
Yeah....That stiffened,jolt of electricity posture. The last coyote I shot this season did that number, slightly quartering,facing shot at a paced 65 yards. She came sneaking thru the cresote brush with head down, just as she cleared the last branch, she paused, I settled the crosshair right at the bottom of the white throat latch, and pressed the trigger. She did that tight lipped death grin, as she keeled over backwards on stiffened haunches, with just a bit of the quivers, as they are prone to do when hit with such force. That was coyote number 16 with my .17HMR:)
Ive shot my share of coyotes with a .223 before wading into never land with my .17s and .19, and have utter faith in it. When asked by newbies what caliber is a good one to predator hunt with, I most always recommend the .223, unless I know the guy is "gunny", then I might throw out the .22-250 as a great one.
Ive seen way to many coyotes shot with more substantial calibers, fall down then get up and hit the burners, to think that bigger is really better. For almost any calling application, I can't see where the .223 is sucking hind tit to any caliber.I know the arguement always arises, concerning the open prairie calling, and dogs that don't come in as hard as our poor,simple minded Arizona coyotes:) Guys that have to take shots the other side of 200 yards, I suppose are better served with .243s and the speedy 25s.
For any calling situation I can think of in Arizona, I would feel totally comfortable using my Rem. model 7 .223, with Nosler 50 or 55 grain Ballistic Tips, and fully expect any coyote I shot right, to fall down.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted April 08, 2004 09:31 PM
"Perfect" No. If it was, I wouldn't consider my .223 as a loaner, or the kids rifle. I like it, and it will put down a coyote with a bad hit better than my 17 Remington. But then if you shoot a coyote in the guts, neither are worth a damn.
I think the perfect rifle is as diverse as are hunters. I like the 17 Remington for calling, and the 7mm RM for howling. Some like the 22-250 AI or 243. Vic manages to do pretty dag gone good with that little 17 HMR.
To each his own, as long as it isn't one of those ugly, murderous AR's, who cares?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted April 08, 2004 09:45 PM
I think the bullet is more important than the caliber. That said, if they are ready to die the 223 is fine. If they are not ready to die even the 243 won't stop them, even with perfect shot placement and perfect bullet performance. With most bullets, the 223 is better than the 22-250 because the higher velocity of the 22-250 causes the bullets to expand too fast and not penetrate. With a tougher bullet the 22-250 is better, but only with a tougher bullet, not the varmint type bullets many are shooting.
Jack
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Saddlemaker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 321
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posted April 08, 2004 09:53 PM
Is your question will a .223 kill a coyote if hit in the vitals with a well constructed bullet at a reasonable range?
In my opinion bullet design, striking velocity and shot placement are what give me confidence. Shot placement being the most important.
Posts: 15 | From: Tucson, Arizona Territory | Registered: Mar 2004
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted April 08, 2004 10:31 PM
I currently have 5 .223s. A contender, two 700s, (a BDL and a varmint,) an AK .223 bullet hose and a 788 Remington. I am sure to go strait to Hell for all the critters I have murdered in my misguided youth with this cartridge. One prairie dog season I burned up 2 8lb kegs of BLC 2. I love the round dearly but it didn’t have what it took to make the grade for a go to coyote rifle.
I think it was the winter of 92-93 that I retired it as my coyote round. I took 85 coyotes that season but should have had a lot more. The added effective range of the swift made a lot of difference and my coyote numbers made a jump to prove it. The very next season after making the switch I shot around 130 or so.
Another local coyote hunter made the same transition many years before I even started calling. He was loosing coyotes he should have also. What really did it for him was when he compared the two side by side. He put two fist sized limestone rocks on fince posts and shot them with both. One with the .223 and the other with the .220 swift. The rock shot with the .223 basically poofed a bit and fell off in two or three peaces. The swift literally smoked it. Marble sized pieces were about as big as you could find at the base of the post.
I know that is not a scientific approach to comparing cartridges but that’s just what he did. Regardless he hasn’t gone back once after more than 20 years. I wouldn’t be the least bit afraid of using it for coyotes but I won’t. Not in this country anyway. When you start sacrificing power and range you are sacrificing coyotes. That’s not on my “to do” list when I hunt. If I wanted sport not fur I would take a bow. LOL
The best combination I have used on coyotes with the .223 is with the same bullet I am using in my swift. The Nosler 55gr BT.
Perfect? No, the swift is. LOLIt is all about shot placement with the swift ya know. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted April 09, 2004 06:34 AM
Just a quick added note, and something to think about. I probably personally know between 20 and 30 different men that make their living, or the majority of it from hunting and trapping coyotes. Some are privately employed and some for public entities from federal to state to county. I do not know of ONE single guy that uses a .223 or .17 of any kind. Not one. Out of those, I pretty sure the swift is king, with the various 6mms following, and the 22-250 is left sucking hind tit, but I do know a couple guys that use it too.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 09, 2004 08:16 AM
Hey Jack,
you said
" If they are not ready to die even the 243 won't stop them, even with perfect shot placement and perfect bullet performance."
Have the Nevada coyotes discovered Kevlar?
Perhaps there is something more sinister afoot. Before I hunt Nevada again I will have a priest bless my bullets and maybe sprinkle a little holy water on them.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 09, 2004 08:28 AM
Jack,
Good news!!!
I have found a source for Kryptonite bullets!
All is not lost!
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted April 09, 2004 08:41 AM
Many times in the past I've written, "If a critter absolutely has to die right there and right now, in the wind, in the rain, in any condition, I grab my 243Win. and have at it." Most ADC type hunters don't give a damn about saving hides so big holes don't matter. If I were in that business I'd pile as much powder into a case as I could for an accurate safe load and press a 70gr Nosler BT on top of it. With this combination holes big enough to stick your boot in is a no problem situation. I can't say the same about the 223, sure I've gotten some big holes but it is not as common.
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted April 09, 2004 11:12 AM
OK, MJM,
When would be the time that you didn't want them to die right there and right now. Is there a time that you want them to lope off a ways to die? Don't you usually call in the various weather conditions mentioned?
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 09, 2004 11:26 AM
I must confess I have had some runners with my .223 too. Nothing worse than lining the crosshairs up right on the chest and >>BANG FLOP >> and up and running for a 100 yards.I still use mine once in a while for coyotes,but 90% of the time I carry my 22-250.I just love the way coyotes just stiffin up and die with my 22-250.I love shooting stuff with the .223 just not coyotes..GOOD HUNTING C.O
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted April 09, 2004 11:31 AM
Nope.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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MJM
Knows what it's all about
Member # 270
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posted April 09, 2004 02:05 PM
Cal - I feel sort of a challenge commin' on. Okay I'll bite. Fro a number of years the Arizona Trappers association was involved in a running legal fight to return the right to trap on public land. I would shoot and skin every decent coyote shot and donate the hide to them. I wanted to keep the hides as saleable as possible. That is when I started using smaller rifles. I dropped from the 243 to a 22-250 then built the 223 and moved to that. My salable hide number went up signifigantly. The coyotes were just as dead and I saw no reduction in numbers.
But when hides are worthless, or when there is a problem coyote to be removed, or anytime that I feel the absolute need to take any and all coyotes no matter the conditions I grab my 243 and on some occasions I've grabbed my 7mm mag.
I don't hunt as hard as I once did (time is limited these days) and I don't donate my hides anymore, but the 223 still fits my hand very nicely, I trust it, its my old friend, we are a high percentage killing team, in the conditions I hunt in I'd put my kill percentage up against anybodies.
Make no mistake about this though, I'm a believer in a person using whatever gun best fits his own personal hand. I've been around hese boards about as long as anybody, I know that Leonard likes to use the hard hitters, 22-250AI's, the occasional Swift, 6mm's and the 25-06. "Q" loves his 220 swift, you like the big stuff I can't remember what but the 243 and 25-06 come to mind. Rich Higgins likes encores (Sorry Rich, until now the contender and Encore seemed like much the same bread of cat to me I stand corrected) and the 223. Others like JH, Norm, Vic, Dogboy, tactical20, tackdriver and many others like the smaller calibers in the .17 and .20 range. Then there is the AR crowd with their .17's, .20's, 223's, 6mm's. Bottom line is all of it works for the guys that kill a lot of coyotes. What works for them works for them. But for me personally, if I were making a living removing problem animals, animals that absolutely have to be killed, I'd grab the biggest appropriate rifle that I had and have at it. What that rifle is would vary depending on the country Iwas expected to work. For my country the 243 is plenty, for other country the 25-06 might not be enough.
Edit: a slip up in one of the names I used Byron when I was thinking "Q". Byron is an AR guy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ April 10, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posts: 97 | From: Tucson, Az | Registered: Jan 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 09, 2004 03:26 PM
MIchael, I've handled only one Encore. It felt heavy, awkward and at odds to my sense of balance, compared to my beautiful, light, wonderfully accurate and perfectly balanced Contenders.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 09, 2004 05:15 PM
Along the lines of Cal's observation about all his friends and neighbors.
(and Danny will bear me out) I know very very few, if any(?) NIGHT hunters that use a 223. Okay, I just remembered, Randy Watson uses one, but I mean out here, local California contest hunters. I'm positive none uses a seventeen.
The reason is that we need them slammed hard, to simplify retrieval. The harder you hit them, the less they move. You need to be able to walk out to the exact spot, tracking at night is an acquired skill, believe that.
So, different applications. Heaven knows, Arizona coyotes come in close enough to brain with a rock. A nice handling 223 is generally adequate, especially if it's casual hunting.
But, I detect a trend. The guys from the wide open spaces seem to show a preference for a little more gun. Count me among those.
Of course, Jack makes a valid point. Bullets are always important. But that's an entirely different subject.
I'm talking about a specific bore and a specific case capacity; the 223. And, of course, in an AR, we lose just a little more, don't we?
The 223 doesn't smack a coyote hard enough, at least for my tastes. It is my belief and conviction.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted April 09, 2004 05:25 PM
Anybody that shoots any number of coyotes at all is going to have cripples get away no matter what you shoot. We can all agree on that I would hope? What is too much and what is too little? That is the burdening question. A good coyote hunter can make a .17 hmr shine just as he could a 300 Win mag. Shot placement should be important no matter which of the two cartridges you are using. Right?
My opinion is that to have a good coyote rifle you need to have one that will get through the shoulder out to at least a couple hundred yards. If it can’t penetrate the shoulder then it isn’t worth a $hit in my mind. The shoulder covers up too much vital area for me to worry about missing. I am not going to go into the field knowing that I have to avoid hitting the shoulder to ensure a clean kill. Won’t do it.
I also don’t feel comfortable shooting a coyote with a rifle that will not pass through the ribs and exit the other side. Inside to inside of the ribs is 3 or 4 inches. Any bullet that can’t penetrate 4 lousy inches of coyote isn’t enough bullet for me. All though frontal or broad side shots are always a priority I will take what I can get as will most all coyote hunters. If I catch one quartering away in the flanks I want a bullet with good penetration not one that will dissolve before it even makes it to the liver. That is not a real common shot but it happens enough to justify a little extra penetration. With the right bullet it will do all that I as of it “but” a swift will do all of the above “better.”
The line between better and best is very blurry. Recoil is a “real world” factor on shot placement. Bad hits can, not always, be caused by excessive recoil. Personally I don’t like shooting anything larger than a 6mm because of recoil. It is not because it is painful to me. It is because I can consistently shoot much better with a lower recoiling rifle. I cant say what the best cartridge is but I think the swift comes closer than the .223 does.
quote:
So, different applications. Heaven knows, Arizona coyotes come in close enough to brain with a rock. A nice handling 223 is generally adequate, especially if it's casual hunting.
Not looking for a confrontation are you Leonard. LOL I heard that all you need in California is a Whiffle ball bat. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted April 09, 2004 05:37 PM
Scott Huber's take,
"
Date: 4/9/04 11:35:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time
To: Richaz1221@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
I had a .223 for a fox/coyote combination gun but I have shot .22/250s for
many years for coyotes. The Swift is a tremendous coyote rifle for this
country.
One problem with Cal's statement is that there is a big difference between
selecting calibers that are suitable for coyotes for year round damage
shooting in areas where winds are high and situations where fur is not
utilized and comparing that to close contact FUR hunting in Arizona where
you are shooting off hand. Apples and oranges!
There is no way anyone that has an understanding of the differences from one
area to the next can make a "one size fits all" caliber statement. I don't
know anyone that shoots a .17 in this country either but after seeing the
"Gods" calling situations and how many coyotes are shot offhand, I wouldn't
hesitate to use a .17 where and when they are calling. You also cannot
compare a 50 pound New York coyote to a smaller Arizona coyote when chosing
correct calibers to put them down either.
You are more than welcome to pass this information on as I don't have time
to.
Later!
~SH~
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted April 09, 2004 05:39 PM
I wasn't issuing a challenge of any type MJM, just going by what you had said in your post, about if you wanted a coyote dead, right there, and right now. I didn't figure you wanted them any other way. And if your .223 works for that then so it is. Leonards original question had to do with feeling let down by .223 Rem performance and I have never been impressed with the round as a whole for coyotes. Now, keep in mind I don't have Arizona or Texas coyotes and country to compare to. My whole outlook might change if I hunted there alot. My perspective is bound to be alot different than most. If I want fur, I trap. It's that simple. I will skin some coyotes in the winter that I have shot for sure, and I will do a little sewing if needed. Most of my calling experience has came from guys that were employed one way or the other doing nothing but ADC work at some level, and I made my living that way for a few years, so I am biased to the heavier side for sure. I'm with Quinton on the statement that he made about the sporting challenge, if I wanted to hunt coyotes for the least fur damage and the most challenge, I would use a bow and arrow. But my goal after I have called a coyote is for that coyote to be dead. And for me the heavies work better. But I do have a .223 and I have killed and will kill more coyotes with it. But in pure preference, I also have a Swift, a .243, and a 25-284, that get the most use.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted April 09, 2004 05:42 PM
That came up at the same time, Rich! LOL!
But, Scott pretty much said the same as I did. My opinion might change drastically if I were in different territory.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 09, 2004 05:48 PM
That's true, Cal. A point well taken. But, that's the point, here. In some country, a 223 is on the light side. What we are finding out, it all depends on your motivation, and as with real estate; it's location, location, location. Notice that Rich, Vic and Michael all live and hunt in Ariazona.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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