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Author
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Topic: Walking Varminter
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 12, 2003 01:17 PM
Since Cal says it's slow, I thought I'd discuss my new gun too... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
At least the one I think I am just going to start using.
My dad has had in the closet, for over 30 yrs, an awesome gun... but it he has never fired it.
It's a 256 Newton, built on a Mauser 98 action, it has a Douglas barrel with a slight taper and a 1:10 twist, it's mounted in a handmade walking varminter stock (well floated).
I call it Treasure (because I found it buried in the back of the gun closet).
My dad says, "oh yeah that ol' thing"...
Just last fall we finally talked him into having the scope base installed, and we got tired of waiting around for a high powered target scope, so we've installed the Weaver K-6 with the target dot reticle.
It's no hiking rifle, at a little over 12 pounds, and doesn't have a sling, but I am trying to convince him it needs one.
Red has just finished resizing some 06 brass, and all we gotta do is decide on, and get ahold of some bullets.
And then work up a good load for it.
I might have as much, or more chance of shooting a bocat as I do a coyote, can anyone suggest a bullet that won't splatter a kitty all over the woods? I am afraid of the 110gr V-max...
Is this gun just plain too big, for small predators like coyotes or bobcats?
Would you zero it for 200, or 300 yds?
Would you rather use the 256 Newton, or a Win. mdl 100 in .284? Because those are our two other choices... (neither of these two are for sale )
Thanks in advance for any advice,
Jeff 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 12, 2003 03:48 PM
I refuse to look it up, but it seems to me that the 256 Newton is like a 25'06? Or maybe based on the 7mm Mauser? I don't think it was ever factory chambered by anybody?
If that's the case, it isn't generally considered a fur gun. However, with selected bullets, it should be no worse than a 243.
I like the .257" Nosler Ballistic Tip, which is actually a "small" big game bullet. In other words, suitable for pronghorns and up to mule deer. These bullets usually exit a coyote with minor to moderate damage, and probably not a good choice for bobcat, either. If you want to save the pelt.
Both of your choices are a gamble, even if you handload. Wild ass guess: I have used a 110 grain Berger match bullet, and they are very accurate in my gun, but I never shot a coyote with them. I think they would be a good starting point for a "relativley" fur friendly load.
The 284W is a short 270 Winchester, or 280 Rem. so you know what it's going to do, right? With any bullet weight.
Good hunting. LB
edited for typos
[ December 12, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 12, 2003 04:20 PM
Yeah sorry, I should have added that part... it's a .264 cal. (or really closed to a 6.5-06 with a longer neck).
I believe the action was originally a 9mm, but I am not sure.
I understand neither of the "big guns" we have are great choices, but they've replaced the 30-06 my brother was carrying. I think they're a step in the right direction, at least.
A friend offered to trade us a sweet 22-250 for the mdl 100 and I told my dad... he just laughed and said "tell em, NO."
And Red said "No way... this is my bear gun".
With a carbine bbl on it, and a safri sling, the .284 is an awesome brush gun. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
...but a coyote is no black bear.
Jeff
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Redrider
Knows what it's all about
Member # 79
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posted December 13, 2003 01:09 AM
I keep telling Krusty that its a "bench gun" not a "field gun" , but he just doesn't want to hear that, lol.
Here is a cool cartrdge comparison site that has some info on the Newton, and most other rounds too. http://ammoguide.com/ Click on "Run AmmoGuide Now"
140g., .264 bullet recipe:
IMR 4350 52.0 gr @ 2920 fps
MAX 54.0 gr @ 3015 fps
Info out of old Pacific Manual 2nd Edition
The loads I'll try first in it are probably gonna be AA4350 with 140 SST's or Sierra 142g. match bullets. Outta be a real tackdriver i'd wager.
Sure wish we had a 6-24X on it though, to reach its full potential.
Happy shooting ,
Redrider.
[ December 13, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Redrider ]
Posts: 27 | From: seattle | Registered: Feb 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted December 13, 2003 12:51 PM
I recently spoke to Randy Anderson and we got on the subject of caliber's and bullets. He had some interesting insights and stories on the .17 cal. That's another subject though. Anyway, I knew that his friend Glen used a .243 most of the time. I noticed in his last video that Glen shot 2 bobcats with his .243. I was impressed with the lack of fur damage. Glen had both cats mounted. I asked Randy what load Glen used. I expected some fancy handload. Randy said Glen just uses whatever cheap softpoint is on sale at K-Mart or Walmart.
That has pretty much been my experience with softpoints and deer rifles too. I've take coyotes with my .270 during deer season with softpoints and been surprised by the lack of damage. Certainly not saying these caliber's are what to choose for bobcats but if it's all you got no sense staying home.
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 13, 2003 01:45 PM
Heck yeah, use what you got, I agree with Curt, 100%
And, hey go ahead and talk about what Randy thinks about 17s, I'm always interested in learning.
The first bobcat I ever killed was with a 270, and 90 gr hollow points and I don't recall blowing the hell out of it. It wasn't over sixteen pounds, either.
But, the more you see, the harder it gets to make definitive statements. I've seen substantial damage from every caliber you can think of, even those fur friendly items.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Redrider
Knows what it's all about
Member # 79
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posted December 14, 2003 09:58 PM
The Newton is not our only hunting rig by any stretch. My silly bro forgot to mention that we have lots of rifles and shotguns. Usually we go out hunting with a Rem. 722 in .222 and an Ithaca 37 12gauge full chocke and take turns trading off.
My two big game guns are a Win. mod. 100 carbine in 284Win and the other is a JC Higgins 51-L(Husqvarna for Sears) in 30-06. Both shoot very, very well. Since we are'nt really "fur" hunters yet I dont't have a problem shooting them little buggers with whatever I happen to be holding at the time.
It would be a real big drag to blow a bobcat to smitherines tho that's for sure. But like Leonard said, fur damage comes in all calibers. The first coyote I shot was with the Deuce, loaded to 3280fps w/50g. V-Max. Hit a fairly little one (YOY I was told) between the shoulders dead center in the spine and left a hole that you coulda dropped a softball into. But that tail is a trophy that I will cherish forever.
Happy shooting,
Redrider.
Posts: 27 | From: seattle | Registered: Feb 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted December 18, 2003 06:35 PM
IT LIVES!!!! 
We took Treasure to the range today!
We didn't set the match shooting world on fire, but it'll hit a critter. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Red took apart the old cartridges we had, and resized some new 30-06 brass to .264 in many small steps. Then he tumbled the old bullets, and stuffed em in the new cases.
We started to see a little bit too much pressure with 53gr of AA4350 powder pushin a 130gr bullet (+/- the amount of lead that rotted away over the last 30 yrs)... I had some real flyers!
But I also put more than a few right on the spot.
Now we got about 30 fire formed cases (all the old bullets we had) and a sighted in weapon ready to go.
It is a tank of a gun... I dunno how far I really want to carry it, but it sure took away a bunch of the recoil... the hot 150s from Red's 6 1/2 pound 30-06 knocked the crap outta me!
I hope everyone else is as happy with their new guns as we are with our new old gun.
Jeff
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted December 26, 2003 02:37 PM
Interesting what Randy says abouty his buddy Glenn. I've been shooting nothing but Remington 80 grains through my .243 for years! I shoot the bullets about an inch and a half high at a hundred yards and so I quit messing around with other stuff. Remember Curt, I'm not a re-loader.
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted December 26, 2003 06:32 PM
Redrider,
Your right, the Newton should be a hell of an accurate rifle. Plenty of Benchrest type of custom bullets for it to make it even more accurate. But it is a little big for furry critters.
But I sure as hell wouldn't use it on a bobcat that hadn't truly pissed me off.
SST's and Amax's are both very accurate bullets. I shoot the 162 Amax in 7MM often, and love it! But you need to slow them down if shooting a coyote. I won't use one on a coyote less than 300 yards out. Under that and they tend to make a nasty mess.
Spine and shoulder shots both make a mess and are rough on fur. Save them for bigger animals, like those who may get pissed about being shot and attack you, ( Bear ) or one's too big to carry back to the truck that stand a good chance of running down the mountain when shot ( Moose or Elk ).
I'm looking at building a new rifle myself this Spring. But I'm stuck between building a new short range calling rifle in .14 caliber, or maybe necking down the .338 Lapua to 7MM for a new long range rifle. I'd rather have the big gun at the moment, but I hate the thought of having to go to a custom action. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 26, 2003 09:10 PM
Yeah, I appreciate your quandary, Tim. Those are the two I'm considering.
Good hunting. LB
PS what about that neat job you have, just posted a pic; laminated stock, three foot barrel? Chambered in some Magnum, right? Not powerful enough for 1000 yard matches? Last I heard, 243s are doing all the winning?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted December 27, 2003 04:29 AM
Leonard,
It has plenty of power, I've been pushing the 168 grain SMK's over 3600 fps with ease, but the barrel on the 300 Tomahawk is only 34"
It does well at the 1,000 yard matches. I can consistently place in the top 10 with it, sometimes even in the top 5. But I don't think it will ever do well enough to bring home wood. To do that, I need to base it on something other than Remington Brass. Of course, If I was serious about winning, I should also base it on something in the 6-6.5mm with plenty of bullet selection. That's the biggest hold ups for the 7mm's Not as good selection for bullets. I'm just partial to the 7's.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 27, 2003 08:20 PM
Im on the use what you have plan too, but just until you get a rifle/caliber suited for the size of our quarry. Just as I'd urge a guy to get a .243 or .270 or .30-06 for deer, rather than keep using his .223, if thats all he had to begin with. I see the .17 issue rears it's ugly head again:) Curt slipped that one in, you devil Curt. I have no particular problem with you divulging Randys "insight" and "stories" concerning the .17, but would appreciate knowing if he has enough field use,years and kills behind a .17 to share his insight? I suppose an off the cuff opinion is ok, but those are formed by casual use and the stories of others with like experience. Just my insight; but I'd need to know a guy owned,shot,and killed fifty or a hundred coyotes over a half dozen years with a .17 until I held his insight with any regard?
Now I honestly don't want to sound contentious on this matter, hope it's not taken that way. I just want to make sure the difference between casual observations and actual field use,is understood and considered.
[ December 27, 2003, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 27, 2003 10:03 PM
CONTENTIOUS? Nah, that was the old Vic. AZ is a pussycat.
If 50 is the entry level, I guess I just barely qualify, but I was a quick study.
We still don't know what Randy thinks, do we? Maybe he loves the hell out of 'em?
Use what you got, again, good advice....with surgical precision, of course.
Good hunting. LB
PS just separating the pepper from the fly****, It's that guy; ChiliRojo that's contentious, now and then.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 28, 2003 07:59 AM
Leonard, speaking of "contentious", ChiliRojo has his moments, but over all he's pretty laid back. That BalaPlata though is a real doozey.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 28, 2003 10:50 AM
Leonard,Rich....your both to gracious:) I just have to be careful when getting into the discussion on these matters. Don't want any delicate egos to be bruised thereby "running off" any of the guests.
I could have just kept my mouth shut, and probably should concerning some of these topics. I just don't want someone to be swayed by thoughts and insight given by someone who might not have much experience to warrant giving any. The 17 might be Randys favorite caliber,and he might have been using one way before I did, thus causing me to eat some crow? Somehow, I think the topic was brought up, because, most likely, he has some negative commentary.....but I could be wrong?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2003 11:20 AM
I (we) apoligize if you feel gunshy. Everybody, including (your) various incarnations are free to express their opinions....HERE. (get it?)
See, that's the problem. There are two sides to everything, and in some quarters, the negative opinions are ruthlessly suppressed.
Some folks might even object to you attempting to qualify opinion by setting up a minimum requirement. I see no need for everybody to buy, and use a seventeen for several seasons before he is allowed to express an opinion. But, that's just me.
What I think is that the negative opinions are no worse than the positive opinions. For instance: I don't have to shoot several dozen fox with an '06 to decide in my own mind that it's not the best choice.
The sub-calibers will remain controversial for the forseeable future, nothing we say here will change things.
So, glowing testimonials concerning seventeen caliber coyote rifles will be countered now and again, by those that remain unconvinced. Seems fair to me?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 28, 2003 12:00 PM
I missed the post so I don't know which Randy was mentioned or if he is pro 17 or con. I just saw an opportunity to needle Vic a little.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 28, 2003 12:39 PM
Rich, I'm fairly certain that they are talking about Randy Anderson, as mentioned in Curt's post, above.
However, the other Randy is usually expected to come galloping in here any minute now, to strenuously defend his favorite caliber.
And, he is welcome to do so, in the spirit of hospitality. We need the amusement, eh?
Good hunting. LB
[ December 28, 2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted December 28, 2003 08:00 PM
Yeah, I hear ya on the two sides to a story, but most generally, one of the sides is going to be proved incorrect, by way of reason and empirical data. Im not really on board with the idea that an opinion is valid because one begins his statement with "I think,or,I heard...." What catches my interest is the one that begins with " In my experience...", and to know the guy making his opinion heard has lots of it, maybe it's just me?
The 30-06 illustration really doesn't hold water Leonard, because you and I, and most other guys have used the 06, to take medium and big game animals, so we have an understanding of just what the 06 is capable of, and can draw a reasonable conclusion as to what will happen if you shoot a fox with it. I find most guys who dismiss the 17s, usually don't have that foundation to base their opinion on, much less enough experience to offer any real insight.
Now mind you, Im not of the opinion the 17s are the end all for predator hunting. Ive always maintained that for most guys, the 223 or 22-250 is probably the best choice for hunting coyotes. Ive used the 17 for ten years now and taken a fair number of predators with it, so I know, what it can and can't do, so it aggravates me a bit to hear guys tell me what they think or have heard,it can and can't do.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted December 29, 2003 11:06 AM
I see what Vic is saying and have to agree.
First, here is my feeling on the .17. Too many people I know have successfully used the .17 to take coyotes for me to ignore it as a valid coyote harvesting tool. Heck, I catch crap about using a .223 by people saying it is too light. I know different. Like with the .17 or any caliber, I think putting the bullet where it is supposed to go is what matters.
Anyhow, I don't want people to form an opinion about Randy A. because of one short comment he made about someone's favorite caliber. I probably shouldn't have said anything. My bad.
The subject came up when we were talking about camcorders for taping coyote calling. I mentioned that I was interested in doing some filming and was considering using a gun mounted camera like his friend Rick in Kansas due to the fact I hunt alone most of the time. I really didn't want to use a .22 mag and asked what he thought of using a .17 with it's low recoil. He said that would be great if I wanted to film coyotes running off and that he would use a .22 mag over the .17. He said that in his last vid where the fella from Savage takes a coyote with a muzzleloader, that the same fella used a .17 on two coyotes prior to the muzzleloader kill. Both ran off with surface wounds that didn't hamper their ability to run at all. One even stopped at the top of the hill to look back and appeared to have a minor surface wound to the shoulder. He said they put the .17 away after that. I told him I was surprised to hear that because I knew of many fellas that really like it for coyotes. Here's the catch.... He then said he felt it was the bullets the guy was using caused the problem. Can't remember what bullet it was. Anyway, he felt that bullet was too fragile and that the .17 probably would do a good job with a more heavily constructed bullet that held together better.
He didn't say if he had used the .17 for coyotes himself but I got the impression he had not. His intention wasn't to badmouth the .17, he was just making an out of the hat reply to a question I asked. As I said, he backed up and said he thought it would be fine with better bullets. He definitely wasn't intending for it to start any controversy. LOL! Not my intention either. Used correctly with good bullets, I think it will work fine too. Silverfox has proved this to me over the years too.
Anyway, that's the skinny. Good hunting with whatever caliber you choose! Have a good New Year fellas!
Take care, Curt
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 29, 2003 04:10 PM
Thanks for filling us in, Curt. Yeah, there isn't enough substance to make an argument, for or against, a seventeen.
In that respect, I agree with Vic. You need more than a couple runners before you decide. Also, a seventeen may well suit the style of some of us, better than others.
I don't care what "others" (you know who I mean) may say; I don't think a seventeen is very well suited for night hunting; for example. The main reason is that it is much more important that an animal drop in his tracks, at night; no fussing, or running off 20-30 (or more) feet in unknown directions. It's very difficult to track an animal at night, without snow cover.
So, at this point, I just know that Vic is liable to mention that coyote I hit right in the middle, with my 6MM, and it ran off like a complete miss! Been a long time since I saw that, and usually, it's a heart shot, and they don't run half that far.
And, he watched it, and he put it down for me....and with an itty bitty 19 Calhoon, at that. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) I guess I have no room to talk, unless you all accept my theory that it was a freak accident, not soon to be repeated.
You can never be so confident in what your next shot will do. Hunting has it's share of surprises, that's for sure.
Good hunting. LB
[ December 29, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted December 30, 2003 08:36 PM
Some of them just don't realize they are supposed to die. I once shot a dog with a hot 165gr spitzer out of a 300Win at about 75 yards. It literally cut him in half. Took out the last few ribs on both sides and the rear of the lungs, and severed the back bone. Only a bit of fur held the hindquarters to the front. He was very much alive about a minute later when I arrived on the scene, although had only managed to move 30 feet.
Jack
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