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Author
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Topic: 220 swift
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted October 19, 2003 06:53 PM
Tell me abbout the 220 swift is it any better than a 22-250? Thinking about buying one to round out my collection.
thanks in advance
albert
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted October 19, 2003 06:56 PM
Anything the swift can do, the 22-250AI does better. And with a whole lot less trouble.
Jack
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Barry
Knows what it's all about
Member # 34
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posted October 19, 2003 08:44 PM
That guy Jack knows everything.The 220 is a brass stretching fool.Go 22-250 AI and trim every 5 or 6 firings,or more.55-grainers at almost 4000.
Posts: 133 | From: Trinidad CO. | Registered: Jan 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted October 20, 2003 05:06 AM
The 22-250 AI is better but I am a little set in my ways so I still use the swift. My 55 BTs run right at 3900 fps. I have absolutely no problems with the cases stretching with my swift. Ya see I loose them at a fast enough rate that I never have to worry about trimming. LOL Well it is about 6:30 A.M. I think I will go test out the old swift on some coyotes today. After a bad weekend I am looking for redemption. LOL We will see.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 20, 2003 05:43 AM
Heck, I've NEVER had to trim any of my .22-250AI cases. Some of them have been loaded 15 times.
Big .22-250AI fan here as well. But, if we're talking factory offerings, the Swift is the stuff. Even in a custom, if a guy just can't stand the though of fireforming (I know some guys like that), the Swift is good.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 20, 2003 04:57 PM
Yeah, I use both, but if I was doing a rebarrel job, I wouldn't give it a second thought, the 22-250 Ackley is the way to go.
You need to go with a gunsmith that has done it before, but, if your plan is to rechamber a factory barrel, that's not advisable; in my opinion.
And, no. I have never trimmed necks on my Ackley, they just don't grow, at all. But, you won't want to fling them into the bushes, with all the work you put into them. It's not hard to snag your brass, and I can't say it has ever caused me to miss an animal. I hardly ever lose them.
A good Swift is nothing to sneeze at, but as has been mentioned, you do need to watch yout overall length, especially if you load hot. A Swift is that much better than a 22-250 Rem. and the 22-250 AI is better than a Swift by about the same margin. A good, practical cartridge. In my opinion, it needs to be factory chambered, and ammunition manufactured for it, as worthy as when the 22-250 became legit.
How's it going up there, Albert? Seen any wolves? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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onecoyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 129
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posted October 20, 2003 11:04 PM
Jack, I'm sorry dude, but a swift loaded right can stick with any 250. If your pushing them 4000 + you are looking for problems, but load em at 3600 or 3700 and see what they do. Has anyone ever AI a swift? They don't need to. The swift and the 22-250 are so close it don't really matter much, but the swift does have the edge, I'm talking factory stuff ok, lol. We could go on forever with this one. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Great minds discuss ideas.....Average minds discuss events.....Small minds discuss people.....Eleanor Roosevelt.
Posts: 893 | From: Walker Lake Nevada. | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 21, 2003 07:39 AM
Lots of Improved Swifts around. Two of the guys I hunt with use them. Cures the case stretch issue, and gives a solid 150 fps over the .22-250AI. Hell on wheels.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 21, 2003 03:52 PM
Yeah, we could generate a bunch of ink on this one. As Dave said, they make a Swift Improved, but there are other options, such as those based on the 243, and without a semi-rim. Cheetahs, etc.
However, it's my opinion that a 22-250 Ackley is all the coyote gun you, or I will ever need, assuming that you limit your shots to around 500 yards. That's just me, but beyond that distance, animals can easily move on you, while the bullet is in flight; no matter how fast the initial MV.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Purple220
Knows what it's all about
Member # 173
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posted October 22, 2003 09:10 AM
Onecoyote, I of course am a big Swift fan. Running mine at 3850 with a 55 V-Max. I have had the pleasure of shooting a 220 AI. Sorry but the 250 AI lags behind again. But here we go again with the comparisons. If you are going to compare the 250 AI to a Swift then it is only fair to AI the Swift and THEN look at the results. Funny, everyone is trying to equal or out do the Swift. Why mess around with the B.S., get a Swift !!!!
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Predator Control Specialist......Here Kitty Kitty
Posts: 154 | From: Big Spring,Tx | Registered: Apr 2003
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted October 22, 2003 04:11 PM
Purple220, you should try RL-15 behind your V-maxes. I use it with my BTs and it is the best all around powder I have found. 39grs gives me 3900 out of mine with my new barrel. Don’t start there of course but give the powder a try anyway.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 22, 2003 05:48 PM
Friends, it is my belief that there is a limit to the "more is better" philosophy. At some point, the word "overbore" gains some significance, and with a hunting gun, I do not care to be screwing on barrels with all the associated development, time and effort.
The 22-250 Ackley almost defies the theory; there being no free lunch.
As I said before, I get a nice, consistant 3925fps with a sixty-five grain (65) Starke. You could attempt to beat that number with an improved Swift, and then again, it may not happen as you planned.
Any way you slice it, hot twenty-two centerfires are a law unto themselves. Some perform and some either wash your barrel sooner than expected, or they show only marginal improvement. Then too, you really need to move up in bullet weight to see what they can do, so choose your twist carefully.
Good hunting. LB
edit: come on, guys. I just like to "discuss" (read: argue) additional comments welcome.
[ October 23, 2003, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 23, 2003 10:24 AM
Leonard,
I'd adjust your comment about hot .22's being a law unto themselves, to say "barrels, and especially when dealing in large capacity "overbore" cartridges, are a law unto themselves".
I've seen pretty big differences in performance, between two barrels of the same length and twist, chambered with the same reamer by the same 'smith. One specific example, involves a pair of .22-250AI's, in fact. I ordered the reamer, from Dave Kiff, to my spec's. Sent the reamer to my 'smith, an exceptionally talented accuracy specialist in Texas named Mike Bryant. I also sent along a Lilja 12 twist barrel blank and a 700 action. At the same time, a friend ("Theo" - I think you've seen him around the boards over the years), sent a Hart 12 twist blank and a 700 action. Both barrels were chambered at the same time, back-to-back, and crowned at 26". I have to point out, that I've handled and measured fired cases from both chambers, and they are chambered/headspaced as indentically as I am capable of measuring.
My barrel shows pressure signs a good 2 gr. lower, with any given powder/bullet combo, than the other one. And, my max. velocities are accordingly slower - by about 150 fps, on average. Put it this way, my max. load with the 55 gr. Vmax is only good for 3850 fps. At that level, cases only last about 5 loads. The other barrel pushes them 4,000, and cases last longer.
Obviously, that particluar .22-250AI barrel of mine, won't come anywhere even CLOSE to the performance level you are getting with yours. For that matter, neither will the other, "faster" one.
Note, I've got another Lilja .22-250AI barrel, that appears to be on the other end of the spectrum. I had it setup for VLD's, it's an 8 twist, 29" long. I can load it to where it nips right at the heels of much larger cases, like the .22-6mm, with "no problem". Cases are so far lasting indefinitely (15 loads on some). Case life is a pretty solid indicator of pressure - my loads ARE safe.
Aside from the simple fact that there are such things as "fast" barrels and "slow" barrels, the variables of twist and length can have a profound effect on performance.
You mentioned care in selecting twist (and of course length), and I agree wholeheartedly. If I remember right, yours is a fairly rare configuration - 15 twist and long (29"?). That's a little known or used configuration, but one to remember if getting the most velocity out of relatively short (ignoring weight) bullets is your goal. Another friend of mine built a .22-243 with a long 15 twist, and is getting the same kind of outrageous performance you are.
Getting back to "slow vs. fast" barrels for just a moment. In his book, Steve Hanson poses a series of questions to a number of barrel makers and accuracy/long range oriented 'smiths. One of the questions he asked the barrel makers, was about the "slow vs. fast" phenomena. I found it very interesting, that for the most part, these barrel makers (including Dan Lilja, Doug Shilen, Chris Dichter and Krieger) dismissed it as being essentially "urban legend". Having experienced it, and seen it a number of times, I flat out don't buy that. The most revealing answer, to my mind, came from Doug Shilen. I'm paraphrasing here, since I don't have the book handy, but what he said, in effect, was that he'd never seen such a thing, and doubted that it actually happens, because "...two barrels made to identical internal dimensions with identical twist and identical internal finish simply have to generate the same velocity, all else being equal...". The way I took that, considering my position, that the phenomena does in fact occur, is that the cause is simply in the differences in these variables between two supposedly identical barrel blanks from a single maker. And, they just don't want to cop to putting out blanks that have measurable variation in these areas. I think they do... And I think it's a "luck of the draw" situation, that affects all areas of performance - accuracy, velocity potential, fouling, ease of cleaning etc...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Purple220
Knows what it's all about
Member # 173
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posted October 23, 2003 10:38 AM
Q, I've been using RL 15 since I've been shooting Swifts, about 10 years. I load 38.5gr.
What I love about it , besides it shoots so good, is the pressure doesn't change due to weather (heat) changes. One fellow shooter blew up a custom Swift on a real hot day using 4064.
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Predator Control Specialist......Here Kitty Kitty
Posts: 154 | From: Big Spring,Tx | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 23, 2003 12:47 PM
Excellent conversation, Dave. Always appreciate your thoughts.
As to discrepancies in performance, one reason that eventually comes to mind is your measurements, and where, exactly, you place your sky screens. I have seen some variation in machines, at adjacent benches, but, when you switch positions, one gun performs better, at both benches.
So, neck tension, ambient temperature, seating depth, etc. a number of variables are possible.
But, I'm with you: there are fast barrels, and some not as fast, 'though not worth crying about, as long as the accuracy is there.
I might add that there seems to be a difference in reamers, differences that are difficult, if not impossible, to measure.
Although you have been hearing about my crowing for several years, you should realize that this gun is primarily used for hunting predators at night, and seldom shot more than a dozen times per night, or 6/8 times per season. A money gun, if you will? Therfore, the accuracy and performance have not degraded appreciably.
But hey. I'm all for a well considered and well excuted project. And, I accept your qualification, it seems to be a function of barrels, more than anything else.
But, identical performance? Hard to disagree with Mr. Shilen from a novice such as I, but I must.
Good hunting. LB
edit: Purp~ hey man, keep doing what you're doing, it sure seems to be working. Happy for you. I used a Swift almost exclusively for about fifteen years, very hard to beat. LB
[ October 23, 2003, 12:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted October 24, 2003 07:43 PM
After reading all of the above post, And finding myself in full agreement with everyone.
I have come to some conclusions. DAA well pointed out how two matching barrels could be so different. We can add initials behind numbers. Then things start happing to some cases, But not others.
I have come to the final conclusion. That we are taking barrels with minds of their own. Then we are shooting them at Coyotes with minds of there own.
Could we be the one out of our minds?.
I am now necking down my .17 HMR to # 9 Quail shot. Think I can push it 6433. The AI version should be good for 6870.
Yall all have a good weekend. I am just trying to get some lousy test results of my mind.
Ronnie
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 30, 2003 04:01 PM
Hang in there, Ronnie.
I spoke with a mutual friend who mentioned those test results. My dad had a similiar thing, they removed the problem and he was fine. A positive attitude can do much good.
Take it easy, buddy. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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