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Author
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Topic: bullets
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 12, 2003 04:58 PM
What is more destructive, high velocity, or larger calibers?
Which seems to kill better, hollow points or spitzers?
All things being equal, which bullet type causes the most damage?
What do you personally expect of your bullet?
What bullet do you like, for large predators?
What is your minimum, and maximum bullet weight, and in what chambering?
Is performance more important than accuracy?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted October 12, 2003 06:08 PM
Leonard my answer to all the above is V-Max Hawlin ass.
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Barry
Knows what it's all about
Member # 34
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posted October 12, 2003 08:10 PM
Damn LB,cant you ask just one question at a time? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Larger calibers are more destructive when using a varmint type bullet.Loaded up some 110 v-max for the .308 and it was total carnage,even more than a 22-250AI with a 52gr Berger.
They all kill when put in the right spot.As long as you are using a quality thin jacketed bullet and aim is true...bang-flop.
Cant say for sure.If the bullet hits bone just right,any fast moving projectile may cause destruction.
I expect the bullet to hit the kill zone and drop the quarry in its tracks.
I've killed coyotes with 40,50 52 AND 55gr bullets.I prefer the 52gr Berger because we have alot of wind here and it shoots great in my rifle.
40 TO 55gr for the yodeldog's round here.Currently shooting the 250AI.It kills when I do my part but isnt fur-friendly when velocity in near max inside 150yds.
Again,all the quality bullets seem to perform well enough when well placed.Its a matter of matching the best bullet for your rifle,accuracy wise.I think confidence is a big plus when zeroing in on your quarry.Nosler bt,Hornady v-max,Sierra blitz king and many others will do the job just fine.The only time I have to follow a blood trail is when I put one in the rear end or gut.When its in the chest cavity its a done deal.You ever hit one in the a$$ and then try a follow up shot at 200 while he's doing 360's at 30mph.I wish I could say that only happend once.Speaking of bullet performance.I killed an elk Saturday using a 300 win-mag with a 165 Speer grand slam.I've killed several with this combo and the exit wound from a broadside shot is the size of baseball.This time it was only quarter size.I heard some time ago[I think?]that Speer changed its design of the grand slam.Is this true?Thankfully it was a heart shot and the bull went right down.Off by a tad and I still might be following a blood trail. 
[ October 12, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Barry ]
Posts: 133 | From: Trinidad CO. | Registered: Jan 2003
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S.Frame
Knows what it's all about
Member # 89
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posted October 12, 2003 08:17 PM
Hello Leonard, boy, your querry covers a hell of a lot of ground, but I'll bite:
1. Velocity
2. Depends on the size and tenacity of your target. When you only require a moderate amount of penetration and anticipate shooting situations in which you can reasonably expect to control the angle and distance, the HP gets the nod. When those variables can't be controlled to any extent, and a fellow needs to "take 'em as they come", more predictable bullet performance and better penetration is all good. I've seen all types of bullets do some strange things as far as terminal performance goes, but hollow points (and strangely to some, FMJS too) are about the least predictable.
3. Poly carb tipped "kinetic energy rounds"
4. An appropriate level of accuracy first of all, combined with reasonaby predictable terminal performance, and an efficient shape that minimizes wind drift and optimizes ballistic performance at all expected ranges.
5. Well, I'm not sure what a "large" predator is, but I'm pretty damn sure I'd use a spitzer soft point.
6. It depends.
7. No. I've been doing this stuff a long time, and I've yet to hear of anything scared to death by a fast noise. The bullet with the greatest ballistic potential and terminal effect, is not worth doodly squat if it can't be placed pretty close to the mark every time.
Accuracy is the single greatest virtue of any bullet; everything else is moot if you don't get a good hit where they live.
Good hunting.........S.Frame
Posts: 27 | From: AhiA | Registered: Feb 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted October 13, 2003 07:10 AM
1. tough one there Leonard, it could be either one, depending on the caliber and the velocity.A 15 grain,.14 caliber bullet clipping along at 4500, can't hold a candle to a 7mm STW, shooting a 140 nosler bt, scooting along at 3600....
2.I don't notice much difference in killing efficency between the two in the small calibers I shoot.
3. HP
4.I like my bullet to penetrate ribcage, jelly lungs,then frag before reaching the other side.
5.I use the Nosler 50 or 55 grain Ballistic tip bullet exclusively in my 22 centerfires for large predators,best bullet Ive found for what I want.
6..22 centerfire,50-55
.17 centerfires,25 grain Hornady
.19 centerfire, only one choice here as far as manufacturer, Calhoon 27 grain is my preferred weight.
7.this Q, I assume we are accepting that the rifle is reasonably accurate? and that pinpoint accuracy and performance are the choices? I want performance over the bughole. We all like a tackdriver, but minute of coyote is plenty for a call gun,I want the bullet to work its magic.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Purple220
Knows what it's all about
Member # 173
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posted October 13, 2003 01:48 PM
I'm with Ronnie on this one,,,V-Max to the max.
I like 50gr in the 223 and 55's in the Swift. I don't think there is that much differences in the tipped bullets except price. Can't beat their price (V's) and the accuracy speaks for itself. Lots of "V" notches on my sticks.
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Predator Control Specialist......Here Kitty Kitty
Posts: 154 | From: Big Spring,Tx | Registered: Apr 2003
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted October 13, 2003 02:36 PM
Depends on what you are shooting, rifle and animal.
I insist on complete penetration on big game, bleeding from two holes rather than one.
on North American big game a 30 caliber at 3000 fps(muzzle) is my minimum, and it kicks butt.
Generally I prefer spitzers.
Yotes, depends on the country and the expected ranges, very very long range (over 300 yds.) I like my 300, I shoot it better, normal situations .223.
On deer I like my 300 and it does not seem to matter, they die and die fast, try not to ruin meat, Elk the failsafe is very effective. Yotes I don't care, the 300 kinda skins em on the spot. LOL. What is a Large predator? a bear? I shot a BIG Black bear in the neck, looking at me, broke its neck and recoverd the bullet from its left ankle, superb performance, died in its tracks, it was a failsafe, .30.
I shoot 180's in the 300, 55's in the 223. one gun, one bullet, one load, keep it simple. Hit the kill zone. My 300 in factory loads loves the Winchester Fail safe, and kills well. 223 likes most everything, so far. Performance is nothing without"acceptable" accuracy, Accuracy is nothing without performance.
Talk about a "no answer" maybe I should run for office, LOL
Carl
[ October 13, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Bofire ]
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 13, 2003 04:49 PM
All great answers!
That V Max is a hell of a bullet, I use it in 224 and 257, superb accuracy and great terminal performance. I also use the Nosler BT, but from a cost and accuracy standpoint, the Hornady blows the doors off the Noslers, at least in my (25) gun. If Hornady would make a 100 grain V Max, I'd be real happy.
Actually, for all around predators, I tend to favor spitzers, but I use poly tipped and HPs, as well. You know...it depends.
By the way, my qualifier about "large" predators was meant to exclude various foxes. That always seems to come up, and I wanted to discount it as a factor. For those that pursue fox, they can figure it out, but many of us don't tailor loads for those critters, when there are bigger fish to fry.
On hot 22 CFs, I have gravitated to heavier bullets. I used to use 52-55 grain bullets, but for maybe the last ten/fifteen years, I have been using bullets in the 60-65 grain range. I suppose the military has been stealing my idea, but I can't prove it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
For 243 and 6mm, I use everything from 56 to 105, they all seem to work. But when push comes to shove, it's hard to beat the all around performance of the 85-87 grain bullets.
As to the comment by Vic about wanting his bullet to frag inside; that is the biggest variable in terminal performance, as I see it. I can't count on that happening, due to various angles of presentation, random distances, and the size of the animal. (to a lesser degree) I also try to take bad hits, caused by running animals, into consideration.
Because of these factors, I am very happy when I find a combination that performs consistantly, and exits every time, preferably without blowing up inside. I have come to the conclusion that (for me) this is the most reliable performance, and it depends on stout bullet construction, coupled with high velocity.
By the way, for the most part, I am not too keen on 50 grain .224" bullets for "large" predators. All the various 52 and 53 grain match bullets are fine, and I've killed many coyotes with them.
Almost all 50 grain bullets are too lightly constructed for coyotes, for my tastes, anyway? But, like Purp~ said; if you use a 223, that might be your answer for the smaller animals, and up to moderate range coyotes. I don't play that game, but it's an option many choose, with decent results.
quote:
Performance is nothing without"acceptable" accuracy, Accuracy is nothing without performance.
So says Bofire.
I think I can agree with that statement. You need some level of accuracy, but I will take great terminal performance with "decent" accuracy. Depends on the gun and the mission, but some of those VLD bullets aren't worth a bucket of warm spit, as a game bullet; zip right on through your animal and you have a runner. So, accuracy and ballistic performance are great, but if the bullet doesn't kill well, you have made a poor choice for your hunting bullet.
Yeah, we are covering a lot of ground, Shaun, but this is a deep subject, and there are many ways of skinning this cat. I'm just pleased to see some of the reasons for the choices you folks have made.
Come on, who else?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted October 13, 2003 06:46 PM
For the 223, the 55 V-max is hard to beat. Good expansion and penetration from 25 to 250 yards. For me they are noticeably more accurate than the Noslers, and cheaper. I have never been able to make the Nosler BTs shoot well in any of my rifles.
Hollowpoints are great match bullets but do not expand like the spitzers and plastic tipped bullets. Even Sierra says that their HP bullets are the toughest and expand the least.
Jack
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Q-Wagoner
FREE TRIAL MEMBERSHIP
Member # 33
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posted October 13, 2003 09:45 PM
That surprises me Jack. I have had very good luck with the 55bts in my rifles as well as the 50s and 40gr weights. Who knows, maybe the V-Max bullets are worth a second look. I tried the 50s once and couldn’t get them to do as well as the bts so I stuck with them. My swift was just fitted with a new 1 in 12 so I am looking for it to do a little better job with the 55gr Sierra BKs.
For coyotes I want it all. The bullet needs to be fast, flat and accurate for starters and must have good penetration as well as rapid expansion. I know that penetration and rapid expansion is hard to get out of one bullet but with the 55gr Ballistic Tips I can get enough of both on a coyote sized animal. The solid boat tale gets the penetration I want and every time I recover one there is nothing left of the core or jacket. There is just a little copper plug on the off side so I know the expansion is there. LOL
Really the sheer weight of the 55gr BTs and BKs will give you all the penetration you need and then some on coyotes in my experience but the edge goes to the BTs because of the boat tale design. The expansion would probably have to go to the BKs because their boat tale is not solid so it has a “little” more bullet to come apart. I think the expansion factor between the two is too minor to even be a consideration though. The BCs are very close so whichever one groups the best at the highest velocity would get the nod from me.
I choose that particular built/rifle combination because I shoot a good number of coyotes every year at extended ranges. If most all of my shooting was 100 yards or under I would probably shoot the same bullets out of my 223 instead.
The most devastating bullet I have ever witnessed on a critter out side of my BMG was a jackal hit with a 75gr V-Max out of a 25-06 AI. Hein Funck and I was Jackal hunting for a sheep operation in the northern Free State. I was calling and the Jackal came in on his side. The sound of the bullet hitting the jackal was louder to my ear than his suppressed rifle was. I would never conceder that combination on coyotes for my purposes. Hein even realized that he was WAY overbore with it. I think he saw how effective my swift was on a looooong range baboon and many jackal so he switched over to a 22-250 AI and shoots Nosler BTs as well for his jackal and caracal work.
He was shooting the 75gr V-Max at 3900 and is shooting the 55BTs at 3950 out of his 22-250 AI. If you run the numbers the 55BTs are right with the 75 grainers in almost every aspect out to 500 yards. The 55s are all you need for jackals or coyotes so the added foot-pounds are not needed anyway.
If I were not so set in my ways I would have to try out the 60gr partitions on coyotes. I think your penetration would only be surpassed by a fmj. The thing is that you don’t need much of any penetration on broad side shots because a coyote is not all that thick. Almost anything will kill a coyote double dead with a good frontal shot as well. I am curious how they would perform. Where they would really shine I think is on quartering shots where you needed to get through the shoulder bone or quartering away shots where you stand a chance of hitting the ball joint of his hip or hitting him in the flank. To anchor a coyote with those shots you need a little luck or penetration so a bullet that is completely dissolved in the first 4 to 6 inches won’t cut it a lot of times.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posts: 617 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted October 13, 2003 10:05 PM
Like Q, Im surprised at the responses concerning the accuracy of the ballistic tips? Every rifle Ive shot them thru displays extremely fine accuracy. Im not dissing the V max bullets, but they never shot with the same degree of accuracy and lethality the ballistic tips have, at least in my application.
I do use the V max in my 22 hornet. The 35 grain V max turned my hornet from a so-so killer using soft points or hps', into a pretty fair coyote wacker, within the parameters of the hornets limited range.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 14, 2003 04:10 PM
Yeah, I see much to agree with.
First, I use the 100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip because it does punch through a broadside coyote, and the damage is generally a half dollar exit on the offside. Ballistically, it beats the hell out of the 75 V Max, and that's one other reason why I use it in the 25'06 Ackley for the long shots. It groups about a half inch, but the V Max is mostly under .375 and sometimes a lot better. And, another thing that squares with the gentleman from Africa, I get a MV of 3950/4000fps. Devastating performance.
A new bullet for me this season will be a 96.5 grain Starke HP, hopefully, the best of both worlds?
My 22-250 Ackley pushes the 65 Starke HP at 3925fps, and it does a good job of exiting with a broadside presentation.
Scout's honor, I have never lost a cripple with the above three loads. (the 25 Starke is untested) Bound to happen sooner or later, I suppose, but not yet, I'm happy to say.
If I were to use any 55 grain bullet in either of my Swifts, or the 22-250 AI, I think it would be Q's choice, because he is getting the type of performance I like to see, and I know the 55 BT is constructed a little better than most 55s.
Jack, I agree with your opinion of hollow points, in general. I have used one Sierra bullet that is the exception to the rule. The 24 caliber 75 grain has a huge HP, and it has awesome expansion at 243 and 6mm velocities; especially inside 100 yards.
Good hunting. LB
[ October 14, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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