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Author
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Topic: 17 Rem for Coyotes
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yotecaller
Knows what it's all about
Member # 179
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posted April 18, 2003 04:33 PM
Who here uses a 17 Remington for Coyotes.I think it is the best caliber for 200 yards and under.I also like the 222 Rem.
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May God be with You.
Posts: 28 | From: NH | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 18, 2003 04:56 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, yotecaller.
Posts with 17 caliber in the topic usually get a big response....I can't wait! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Purple220
Knows what it's all about
Member # 173
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posted April 18, 2003 07:30 PM
I shot a 17 for a few years, got tired of dogs running off with solid hits. Rebarreled to a 223, been banging them dead ever since. Still like my Swift for ALL ranges.
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Predator Control Specialist......Here Kitty Kitty
Posts: 154 | From: Big Spring,Tx | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jack Roberts
unknown comic
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posted April 18, 2003 08:58 PM
For shooting puny little western coyotes, the 17 may work. For eastern coyotes, even the 223 is very lacking in my experience.
I admit, when I shoot something, I want it dead RIGHT NOW, no arguing about it, no pleading it's case to a higher court, etc.
Anything less than bang-flop, I do not like.
Jack
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Curt2u
Knows what it's all about
Member # 74
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posted April 18, 2003 10:03 PM
For the hunting I do, I use a 22-250 or .223 most of the time. Have a new .243 that I use sometimes too. I've used a .220 Swift quite a bit in the past. Sold the one I had but it was great. Need to get another. Really liked it. Basically the same as the 22-250. Both 22-250 and .220 swift have been very reliable coyote caliber's for me. Still working on the .243 load but it will come around.
I use an AR for my .223. Results can vary from 22-250 type performance to unimpressive performance depending on variables. Bullets and barrel length seem to make a big difference. When the range gets a little long, my 16" .223 can be disappointing sometimes.
Now the 24" AR .223 is a different story. It performs like my 22-250. This last winter I used some Sierra 60 gr. HPs and I was very, very impressed. They flattened every coyote I shot with them. Lethality was equal to my 22-250 it seemed. The heavier bullet gave really good penetration and great knockdown. 55 HPs worked excellent too out of the 24". I'm no ballistics expert but it seems the 24" reaches out better and hits very hard. I'm assuming because of better velocity.
My use of a .17 has been very limited. The little I have used one did not make me want to buy one. In close calling situations it may work fine. Where I am, shots vary from 50 to 300yrds. .17s don't cut the mustard in my opinion.
Satisfaction with this caliber seems to vary greatly even with fans of this caliber. This also didn't make me want to run out and buy one. Probably a good groundhog/fox gun though. I can't use a gun I'm not 100% confident in. Some calling situations that includes my 16" .223. I save it for the tighter stuff where shots are a little closer.
This is just my opinion though. Not trying to step on any toes. I know there are places that are conducive to successful hunting with the .17. More power to those that live in those places. It ain't where I live though.
Take care, Curt (again, just my opinion )
Posts: 236 | From: NW | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 19, 2003 08:09 AM
yotecaller, the above are typical responses, out here. Notice they are all located west of the big muddy.
However, I bet there is somebody out there that will soon defend your choice, and do so with great enthusiasum.
That's been the pattern.
My experience is that a seventeen has value as a pelt gun in the hands of a disciplined hunter, but it certainly isn't foolproof, even within certain parameters. Losing one animal in ten isn't a good average, in my judgement; and this includes declined shot opportunities.
Who knows? Maybe JH, or one of his emissaries will honor us with an opinion?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JLDakota
Knows what it's all about
Member # 14
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posted April 19, 2003 12:27 PM
First, I will say that about 6 or 8 months or so ago I found the site and immediately went back and read everything that's had been posted. That told me who was who and who thought what. My thanks to the old timers who every once in a while slip or get goaded into dropping a gem of significance that I doubt I would ever become privy to any other way. Keeps me coming back. Also am the proud owner of a Higgins Howler and there's nothing better in my opinion. I owe that to this forum.
I would expect that the majority of the posters here and on other forums are relating experiences with the 17's that took place prior to the availability (this past year) of Kindlers 30 gr. Gold Boattail bullets. There is new info and hard evidence relating to retained energy at extended ranges that should cause many who are concerned about "fur friendly" calibers to take another look at the 17's with that bullet combo.
A friend of mine, some of you may be familiar with, Blaine Eddy, of Clearfield, Utah hunts coyote for fur with 14 and 17 calibers almost exclusively and has been for many years. He and a partner had skinned 192 by Feb 1, with 80 of them being taken with the 30 Gold bullet in his ".100 short .17PPC" leaving the muzzle at just over 4000fps. Blaine recently stated that the new 30 Gold increased his effective kill range to 500 plus yards with 3 kills this year at over 500.
Is Blaine Eddy your normal coyote hunter? Obviously not, he's a specialist who calls and kills lots of coyotes each year, knows what he's doing and hates to sew. He was and is comfortable consistantly killing high numbers of coyotes each year with calibers that the "knowlegable" say are inadequate for the job. The old saying that went something like "the world is full of people doing things that everybody says can't be done" probably applies some how in this case.
Having said that, I don't suppose we even want to get into his use of the 14-221 being adequate for called coyotes inside 150 yds. lol
I'll close this post by saying I also shoot a 17rem as a fur gun for coyotes in MN and have for a while. My hunting territories limit me to shots under 250yds usually and I have not thought nor found myself undergunned. I do though, plan to rebarrel a Vixen in a faster twist to check out the "Gold" bullets so I can formulate my own opinion. BTW, Sly is not pulling your leg about the 20's either. They also get with the program.
I would apologize for the length of this post but after what I have been exposed to on this forum by some of the "more lengthy" posters, this should be considered nothing more the a lengthy sentence. lol Good shootin' Jim
Posts: 19 | From: MN | Registered: Jan 2003
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Hodgen
Knows what it's all about
Member # 180
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posted April 19, 2003 03:22 PM
I use a 17 rem pretty much exclusively anymore.
I feel it is more than adequate to kill a coyote east or west. If I can lay a whitetail down with it, I can't see the supernatural powers of the coyote withstanding it.
I was using H-380 with 25gr Hornady's. I wasn't screaming them all that fast, about 3800fps. I am not quite sure if I just got a hard lot of Hornady's, or if there was a jacket design change, but I began experiencing some nasty EXIT holes in coyotes. I have since switched to Bergers and the problem has gone away.
If I hit them in the boiler room, they are as dead as using my 243.
Posts: 59 | From: Pennsylvania | Registered: Apr 2003
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yotecaller
Knows what it's all about
Member # 179
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posted April 20, 2003 02:52 PM
I have not lost a Coyote yet with my 17 Rem.The biggest Coyote I got with my 17 so far has been 48 pounds.I try to get the coyotes in to 40 yards of me.I have just as much fun calling them in as I do Harvesting them.
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May God be with You.
Posts: 28 | From: NH | Registered: Apr 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted April 21, 2003 06:21 AM
90% of the coyotes I've killed over the past ten or so years have been killed with the .17 rem. It kills 'em dead and kills 'em fast.
I've taken shots a long ways out there and have not noticed any problems.
Randy
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 21, 2003 07:49 AM
I'm a little bit familiar with Blaine. He's a stone cold coyote killer. No two ways about it. I know he did kill 80 called coyotes this past winter with his new wildcat .17 and Kindler's 30's. I think he also killed another few dozen with a .14 caliber. Considering he only hunts about 3 months out of the year, those are some impressive numbers.
Between talking to him, and to Dan Clements, who also has a wildcat that pushes the 30's at over 4000 fps (his is based on a blown out .223), I'm pretty much got my mind made up to build one myself. I'll probably do Dan's version, rather than Blaine's, because I've already got a good action to use with the correct bolt face, and it's designed to be a repeater (normal body taper).
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted April 21, 2003 08:27 AM
Dave
This might seem like a really dumb question but how do you mantain a normal body taper on a blown out .223 case? Only changing the shoulder?
Dennis
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 21, 2003 08:44 AM
Dennis, you got it. I don't have any notes handy, going from memory, so if I don't get it quite exactly right my excuse has already been offered .
I'll look at the reamer print later and see if I'm remembering quite right or not.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 21, 2003 07:45 PM
Okay, I was only remembering half right. Dan's wildcat, which he calls the .17 Predator, is .365 at the shoulder and it's a 30 degree shoulder. The shoulder is also blown forward a bit to increase body length/capacity as much as practical while still leaving a long enough neck. That is less body taper than the parent .223, but not as much less as most AI chambers that usually have shoulders about .372. I'm pretty sure he went with the 30 degree shoulder rather than the 40 degree to also accomodate feeding. Although, I think it's mostly the body taper (or lack thereof) that gives feeding problems with AI's, rather than the shoulder angle.
But, anyway, Dan designed it from the git-go to feed from a 700 action, and he says it does, just slick as could be. And pushes the 30 gr. boat-tail bullets at over 4000 fps. Those bullets have a BC of .270. Meaning, this .17 doesn't give up ANYTHING in wind drift or trajectory to even a hot Swift load. Can't compare to the Swift in energy, of course. But field reports so far, from guys I trust, say it's "got enough".
Mind you, I've zero actual experience with using a .17 to kill coyotes. And I'm not "advocating" anything. But, I'm always wanting to mess around with "different" stuff, and one of these big capacity .17's has me intrigued. Might be a little while (so many wants, so little money...), but I'm gonna build me one. If it turns out I'm non-plussed with the performance on coyotes, I think it would still make a hell-on-wheels walk around medium-long range chuck rifle. Wind drift and trajectory of a hot-rock .22, with no recoil - so I could spot my own shots, an important consideration for a walk around chuck rifle .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 22, 2003 03:56 PM
Sounds interesting, Dave.
As you may be aware, I'm not overly impressed with seventeen performance. A few 30 grain bullets have been tried in the past with, what I hear, have been mixed results? I'm generally stubborn about using anything less than maximum, since I gave up fur. At this point, I could compare the 17 Remington to driving 47MPH in the fast lane. What is the point? Kills as well as a 243? Yeah......
But, I could be tempted to build what you describe. You know, strictly for those far shots? BTW, what twist are you considering? And, will it handle 20-25-and 30 grain bullets?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted April 23, 2003 04:43 AM
DAA
Thanks for the explanation. I'm wondering if the cost for the reamer and chambering is worth the gain over a 17REM?
I have only seen 3 coyotes shot with a 17. Two went down like a rock and the third also went down like a rock, but then was up and running in a matter of seconds. That one was a straight on frontal shot and the coyote was never found.
Have you ever considered a 17 chambered in a PPC or a BR? That sounds like a fun plinker to me.
Dennis
[ April 23, 2003, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 23, 2003 05:42 AM
Leonard,
I don't think you'd be much more impressed with one of these wildcats than you already are with .17's. If fur isn't a consideration, I just don't see any reason to mess with one. Unless you are pursuing a minimalist leaning, or just like to experiment with rifles (I've got a little of the former and a lot of the latter spurring me). That said, the newer, higher BC 30 gr. bullets really are a quite different critter than the 30's you might be familiar with. Much higher BC, with all the good that comes with that. And both of the guys I know who are using them to good effect, are launching them at least a couple hundred fps faster than the .17 Rem. would be capable of.
A 9 twist is the "safest" bet for using these bullets. Which would still handle all the lighter pills just fine. Blaine Eddy is using a 10 twist in his rifle though, with great results.
Dennis, I avoid even thinking to myself, whether anything like this is "worth" the cost or not. It is a significant performance gain over the .17 Rem. though. The Predator holds 3.8 gr. more powder. And "yup", I have thought about a PPC or BR case. Wouldn't make for a repeater, but it would make for some good performance! Blaine's creation is a .100 short .17 PPC, by the way.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Terry Hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 58
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posted April 23, 2003 05:19 PM
I have owned a 17 for years.It's fun to shoot with almost no recoil.I have killed coyotes at 200 yards with a well placed shot and had run offs at 50 yards.The run offs may be my poor shooting.The small bullet will sometimes explode when shooting across sage fields.
Most of my coyotes are shot with 22-250,6mm,257 AI or a 25-06.
Posts: 132 | From: N. Middle Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2003
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Thumper
PAKMAN
Member # 174
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posted April 23, 2003 09:50 PM
In my opinion the 17 Rem is the ultimate calling cal. This past season was my first with the 17 and it took out 60 or so of the 70 I killed this year. Shotgun accounted for a few and the AR 2 or 3. Past years I used the AR (.223) and I think the 17 is just as effective. There is something about walking up on a coyote in pristine condition (no visible hole, no blood) as opposed to one that has its internals exposed. I can remember 3 runners this year with the 17. They were my fault not the guns. My dog found all the runners. A dog can be a huge help. 90% of my shots are under 100yds and seldom could I see one over 200yds in the country I hunt anyway. I think I had at least as many runners with the .223 if not more then when using the 17. If you're shooting beyond 250yds consistantly then I could see getting something bigger than the 17. I used both the Berger and the Hornady 25 grainers and also found the Hornadys to exit much more frequently.
Posts: 4 | From: Oregon | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 24, 2003 08:43 AM
Thumper, welcome to the New Huntmasters.
A comment or two. First, if you're happy, that's all that counts. I see the same results, and am unimpressed. This will have to remain a "Ford Chevy" difference of opinion, but comparing 17 performance to a 223 is more of the same marginal performance, in my opinion.
One knowledgable user said, the last time this subject came up, that this is a difficult house to espouse the merits of the seventeen caliber, as coyote medicine.
And it is, and will remain~ difficult, but not impossible.
I very much appreciate the comments, both pro and con , which is another departure from the blackboard; as a "for instance." I respect your choice, but will always be skeptical of the performance; for my application.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 24, 2003 09:40 AM
I agree with Leonard,if you understand your limitations with a 17 and are disciplined you should do o.k, but like Leonard I to am unimpressed with them as a coyote caliber at least in the areas I call where shots can vary from 10-300 yards.FWIW GOOD HUNTING CO
[ April 24, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Blaine E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 183
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posted April 24, 2003 05:58 PM
Howdy Fellers
A good friend of mine JLDakota told me about this Forum! Thanks Jim, Seems like with some folks there is always controversy when it comes to the ,17's. I for one am a Staunch supporter of the .17 and i have the Proof to back it up. Sure they have their limitations but so does every caliber out there. The trick is in finding the balance for YOUR APPLICATION. People can knock the .17's all they want, I just smile and keep killin Coyotes with mine, There are many other points that should be considered before one Condems the Small Cals, #1 Bullet Placement, #2 Velocity and Energy on Impact. #3 Bullet Construction, To Date i have taken nearly 50 dogs with my .14 cal, Specifically a .14-221 Walker using 13-15gr HP's at 4400-4300fps respectively. Of the 50 shot only 1 was lost and he was out about 250. Anyone serious about calling Coyotes for their Fur will try to pull em in to well under 200, to pin point bullet placement and minimize Fur damage! My average distance is 60 yds. And if it were not for the % of coyotes that hang up at 300-350 i would be using my .14-221 instead of my .17 DT. My point is if you are wanting to hunt coyotes for their Fur, then for my money the small cals cant be beat! If you dont care about the Fur then shoot em with any damn thing you want. Because it really doesnt matter if all you want to do is kill something right? Dead is Dead!
Posts: 15 | From: Clfd UT | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 24, 2003 07:02 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Blaine. We were just talkng about you! Glad to have you on board.
You make your point very well.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Blaine E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 183
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posted April 24, 2003 07:49 PM
Thanks Leonard
I appreaciate it very much. - Blaine
Posts: 15 | From: Clfd UT | Registered: Apr 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 24, 2003 08:51 PM
Hey, good deal, now I don't feel like I'm talking behind Blaine's back, heehee...
Good to see you here Blaine. There are a lot of good callers on this board.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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