|
Author
|
Topic: Coyote a "Pack Animal" ?
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 05, 2013 10:55 AM
I recently ran across a fellow who claims that coyote's are pack animals. I say they are not. What do you guys say?
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted December 05, 2013 11:20 AM
seems like to me that if a family group stays together, that makes a pack. I'd say most of us have seen large numbers of coyotes together, so who's to say that they are or aren't all family members, and if they aren't all family members, is that pack any different than if they are all family members?
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
|
posted December 05, 2013 11:32 AM
There are family groups an transients that are looking to find a mate and start a family group.
--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
|
posted December 05, 2013 12:06 PM
If they hunt and keep a structure like wolves, then I'd say they are pack animals for sure. I never seen enough of them to label them as a pack critter, but I'm sure they are capable of forming a pack if necessary.
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 05, 2013 12:23 PM
seems like to me that if a family group stays together, that makes a pack. I'd say most of us have seen large numbers of coyotes together, so who's to say that they are or aren't all family members, and if they aren't all family members, is that pack any different than if they are all family members?
-----------------------
It is my understanding that Momma coyote bears an average of five pups every spring. Mom, Pop and their five pups makes a family group of seven. I have never seen more than six in a group myself. I call that a Family group, not a Pack. The family group runs together all summer while Mom coyote teaches the pups how to hunt. Still a family group?
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
|
posted December 05, 2013 01:24 PM
I always assumed it was a matter of semantics? What is in fact, a "family group", male, female and pups stay until dispersal, leaving the male and female to stay together or not?
Wolves, have "packs", consisting of a mix of adult males, females and mature pups which may or may not stay, possibly scattering off to form another pack.
Both wolves and coyotes, can, at the right time, have many animals in the group, so the word "pack" seems to just stick in many peoples mind, rather than discriminating between the two distinctly different behaviors,
Of course; I could be as full of shit as a Christmas goose, Im by no means biologist, just a hunter who reads and makes an attempt to be informed?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 05, 2013 01:25 PM
I can give you a lot of examples of coyotes assembled, but (personally) I would not call that a "pack".
I know a guy not prone to exaggeration that told me he lit up 46 coyotes on the side of a hill one night. I called in 9 coyotes, single file one morning, several times I have observed coyotes traveling in a line, usually 5 or 6.
But, in my half baked definition of PACK, they have an alpha male and a alpha female and anywhere from 8 to 20 adult and juvenile animals. That's wolves and that's a pack.
With coyotes, grouping together lasts for an indeterminate time, but not a year or several years, as does the wolf. Due to scarcity of game, coyotes may use an animal dump or a city refuse site and there might be a truce between rival family groups, but I would hardly call that mess a "pack".
Every year, coyotes have a dispersal of the young, maybe one pup will hang with the parents, (I'm told) more often than not, a female. So, by midwinter, there goes the family group and this cycle is repeated every year so that I just don't see how the classic definition of pack would apply to normal coyote behavior?
If someone disagrees, I wouldn't argue, but; I know what I think about it.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: looks like Vic and I were writing at the same time and are in general agreement?
Vic: what's your email, I sent you an email to three different addys, two returned but not sure any got through?
[ December 05, 2013, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted December 05, 2013 02:54 PM
My $.02 is that the coyote is a social animal and will adapt to circumstances.
Call it a definite maybe, sometimes.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 05, 2013 04:01 PM
"My $.02 is that the coyote is a social animal and will adapt to circumstances."
---------------------------------
Kind of like a Woman, right Koko?
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted December 05, 2013 08:37 PM
Now that you mention it............Yup.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted December 06, 2013 04:44 AM
Doesn't a requisite of being in a 'pack' mean that those animals engage in 'pack' behavior Most notably, hunting as a pack?
Do the coyotes of the SW 'pack up' to hunt mesquite beans? Certainly not! But those same coyotes might 'pack up' to try to pull down an antelope, or deer at certain times of the year. Or whenever the opportunity arises, no?
I would tend to think that a family group of coyotes that hunts together regularly to survive, might show more 'pack' tendencies than where more easily foraged food is available?
Nothing scientific to go on, just thinkin' out loud...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted December 06, 2013 06:00 AM
I hear mules are good pack animals, but I prefer horses....
Some people use goats or Llamas too.
[ December 06, 2013, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 06, 2013 06:10 AM
I hear mules are good pack animals, but I prefer horses."
-------------------------------------
By golly Cal, I do believe that you are correct.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
|
posted December 06, 2013 06:20 AM
I would say 'no' but it's all in the definition.
Do a search on 'pack behavior' and you'll see a common thread as to what most think it means.While the 'leadership' and 'dominance' points may fit in a family scenario,IMO coyotes are outside the usual definition.
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
|
posted December 06, 2013 07:00 AM
I hear mules are good pack animals, but I prefer horses....
Me too.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 06, 2013 07:14 AM
quote:
Doesn't a requisite of being in a 'pack' mean that those animals engage in 'pack' behavior Most notably, hunting as a pack?
Do the coyotes of the SW 'pack up' to hunt mesquite beans? Certainly not! But those same coyotes might 'pack up' to try to pull down an antelope, or deer at certain times of the year. Or whenever the opportunity arises, no?
I would tend to think that a family group of coyotes that hunts together regularly to survive, might show more 'pack' tendencies than where more easily foraged food is available?
No, I don't agree with any of the above. Coyotes almost never "pack up to pull down an antelope..." I can't say it never happened but it's doubtful?
About the closest I have ever seen is here in suburbia. A pair of coyotes on cat patrol will work opposite sides of the street. When one flushes a cat, which runs across the street, the other one is there and nabs it. Between me and the family across the street, there have been a lot of cats bit the dust to this scenerio.
Other than than, I don't think family groups hunt together at all? So, if it's: "Most notably, hunting as a pack?" that is the operative word, coyotes are not pack animals. (personal opinion)
And now I'm sure somebody is going to "recall" observing coyotes hunting in a pack. <sigh> Sure.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
|
posted December 06, 2013 10:19 AM
I saw two coyotes stalking and getting a snowshoe hare. Is that a two-some pack? I think that they're so adaptive, that they could go into wolf pack type formation if needed.
[ December 06, 2013, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
|
posted December 06, 2013 10:56 AM
Best word yet they are ADAPTIVE.
Cal why horses over mules?
--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 06, 2013 11:38 AM
Well, first of all, two coyotes stalking a rabbit is exactly like what I see, a pair flushing cats in suburbia. But, a pair does not constitute a "pack" by any definition I am aware of?
Can't argue with adaptive. They are survivors, I will give them that.
I'm going to say, Cal will say mules are stubborn, like Tim. But, I have read that some folks that guide for a living not only prefer mules as pack animals, they ride them as well.
So, I'm a bit surprised that Cal would like pack horses, more better. He must have a good reason? And, llamas are making a little headway, judging by what I see in the Owens Valley and the Sierra's. Of course, Bishop's Mule Days is strictly burros, from what I can tell?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: maybe it's economic, mules aren't cheap?
[ December 06, 2013, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted December 06, 2013 11:42 AM
Our coyotes eat our deer in the wintertime here, and they gang up on a deer to pull it down. Whether that determines a 'pack' could still be considered semantics. But it happens, nonetheless...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 06, 2013 12:10 PM
Nah, a pack is a static entity. Year in, year out. Yarding up in desperate winter conditions defines "adaptable". Come spring and they start to pair up, no vestige of pack behavior that I can see?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 06, 2013 03:43 PM
NOTE: this is just my personal opinion. If somebody feels differently, I respect that.
So, let's hear it. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted December 06, 2013 04:39 PM
If we're submitting votes, I say no that coyotes are pack animals..
It seems females and males get together for breeding, but separate as soon as the male can...
Pups get kicked to the door really soon as well..
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted December 07, 2013 05:44 AM
The difference between mules and horses in a nutshell is in most every situation someone has to be the leader or boss. I'd prefer that to be me, a mule prefers that to be him. Therefore me and mules don't get along.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
|
posted December 07, 2013 05:51 AM
As for the coyote question the answer is always the same. Coyotes will adapt to any situation. They are liquid and will change and fit into whatever space they need to at any given time. They can be pack oriented, or they can be complete loners, depending on what the situation requires at any given time. I personally don't consider them a pack animal most of the time, but they will loosely group together if needed for survival. I don't consider a coyote family group a "pack" because they don't typically stay together for longer than necessary.
--------------------
Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
