|
Author
|
Topic: Coyote a "Pack Animal" ?
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 22, 2013 06:13 AM
My vote on this matter goes for the adaptable theory. They pack up if needed but also adapt to be loners if needed.
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
|
posted December 23, 2013 07:13 AM
I seen 7 running together yesterday morning right at daylight. Two leading and 5 chasing across a wheat field...they were about a 1/2 mile out and at first glance I thought the grey hound boys had dumped out on a pair, but it was 5 more coyotes...
[ December 23, 2013, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
|
posted December 23, 2013 07:26 AM
Maybe coyotes are only part-time pack animals. OK, I am kidding.
But seriously here, how many can you remember ever seen running together perhaps as a group at one time?
[ December 23, 2013, 07:27 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
--------------------
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
|
posted December 23, 2013 07:36 AM
i called in 11 once. they were all coming across a frozen lake. they were not all together though.
i seen 17 one morning at daybreak in a cut sunflower field. i was sitting on a hill 1/2 mile away. had a good view looking down.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
|
posted December 24, 2013 01:21 AM
On a very rare occasion we had snow in the desert needless to say I grabbed my gear and went out to one of my honey holes. I got set up on a rolling hill below a larger hill about a half mile away fired up the caller they started coming of the larger hill couldn't count them they were not together per se but all coming from the same direction. I have never since seen anything like that. I don't think they knew they were so visible in the snow.
--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted December 25, 2013 04:46 PM
Spoiler alert! Rich, you probably will want to skip this post as it uses words >3 (that means "greater than") syllables here and there, and it includes some biological references. BTW, no, I am not currently a biologist. Why? because I made ~$30k more working for the federal government than any of the biologists in any of the states where I wanted to work coming out of college. If you need me to, I can post my diploma/ degree here, and send you the phone number and contact information for the administrator of the raptor research facility where I was (gasp) a biologist. Did research, processed data, and presented the results of that work at the 1986 Raptor Research Foundation National Meeting at U. of Florida, too. He'll confirm that for you. Why does that threaten you? Just sayin'....
Anyway, to clarify what you guys are saying and how that dovetails with conventional scientific standards as to "packs", or not.
As I stated in my earlier, much-maligned-by-Cronk post, coyotes are regarded to live in any of three distinct social statuses: a pack, an individual, or an aggregate. An aggregate is a group of individuals who assemble temporarily to benefit each individual, such as when you see a large aggregate of coyotes feeding on a dead pile, or during breeding season when a buttload in single individuals assemble for courtship prior to breeding. An aggregate can be two or 20 coyotes. Number doesn't matter. The main distinguishing feature between individuals/aggregates and a true pack (or family group if you'd rather) is that a pack, like with wolves, share social bonds between individuals, are often of the same genetic lineage (related, Rich), maintain an actively defended territory, and stay within a home range. Home ranges can and often do overlap, whereas defended territories do not. Those coyotes you see out on the frozen lake or in the sunflower stubble may be a pack, but a group that size is likely an aggregate. During breeding season, I've seen as many as 17 together on one occasion as well.
Sidebar: Couple years ago, I was invited to appear on an award winning regional radio talk show to defend trapping after a guy lost his beagle to a conibear in a bucket. This show normally debates political issues and one host is strongly Conservative while the other is a staunch liberal. The Conservative host will often offer up data, studies, and scientific results to reinforce his position for or against the issue of the day. The liberal host attacks his arguments, often by simply saying "That's stupid" and that's it. No counter facts. No qualifying facts. Just her opinion, her feelings. Often times, the Conservative host will rattle off a litany of valid supporting facts and still, the liberal gal just argues how "stupid" his argument is. She has even called him an "idiot".
My point is this: Rich? You posted the question. I answered with my opinion and the information I have at hand that has been studied, peer reviewed and published as scientific fact. As such, it adhered to the scientific method and is reproducible by anyone else who would want to repeat the study. You disagree with my opinion. I don't have a problem with that, nor do I lose any sleep over it. Rather than offering up a valid counter debate, you resort to name calling and call me an idiot. Rather than addressing the facts of the issue, you attack the commenter. Where are your facts? What can you offer to counter what I have submitted here? Your response is emotion-based rather than fact-based.
If I didn't know any better, seeings how you are from Democrap stronghold Iowa, of all places, I can only conclude that your debating skills "out" you as a closet liberal.
Whoodathunk?!?
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 25, 2013 04:54 PM
"My point is this: Rich? You posted the question. I answered with my opinion "
----------------------------
You tell em Sea Dog, you are almost equal to Timmy from Minneesotee when it comes to anything and everything. Your ego is beyond belief. LOL, what a crock of B.S. you carry around. I have friends here but you ain't one of them.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 25, 2013 06:21 PM
Come on, Boys. It's Christmas. That's stupid!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
|
posted December 25, 2013 06:52 PM
If ones defines the characterictics of a wolf pack and tries to apply that same definition to coyotes, it isn't going to fit too well. To be a pack animal i would think that arrangement would have to exist in almost all cases almost all the time. not just occasionally as might occur with coyotes. This may just be trying to sort fly sh..t out of pepper anyway.
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 25, 2013 07:03 PM
" Come on, Boys. It's Christmas. That's stupid!"
-------------------------
You are correct sir. From this point on, I will try to ignore his post's.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 25, 2013 07:05 PM
6mm/284,
I agree 100 percent sir. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted December 26, 2013 05:10 PM
More insults, and thin on facts. In fact, no facts. Keep on keeping on with the deflections, Rich. All I'm asking for is for you to provide some basis for your opinions so we can hold an open, objective discussion on a subject that interests me as much as it apparently interests you. You assert that I'm like dipshit yet you're the one that offers up his type of argument - all personal opinion and nothing at all to base it on.
It's a fallacy to conclude that all coyotes move in and out of pack-type relationships. Bekhoff studied Kansas coyotes where I hunt and determined that as much as 65% of our coyotes here remain part of their family group year-round. That is consistent with what I see in the field, all year long. Yet, at the same time, there are coyotes that are always alone, or two males of the same age that come in and die together. I have no idea what place in the hierarchy any one particular coyote in my crosshairs holds, but I do know that since I redesigned my calling strategies around the facts presented by Bekhoff, and specifically direct different calling schemes according to what I see before me, the time of year, and what is motivating them on that particular day, my numbers have increased dramatically. Now, Cronk may try to back his position up by dropping the names of an ADC man here or there. I've discussed this with a lifelong friend of mine who has spent his entire adult life working for Wildlife Services killing coyotes, wolves, lions and arctic fox and he assures me that I am spot on with my interpretation and how I apply the information.
You can either go by what Cronk says, and his old timey pic of two dead coyotes in his truck from some time early in the 20th century, no evidence of having killed anything else, no useful innovative contributions to the ongoing dialogue in search of better calling skills and knowledge, based on nothing but his "opinion", or you can consider the facts as revealed by valid research.
Eisenhower once said, "Never engage an adversary except from a position of strength." If this site is well known for just one thing, it should be that you never show up here with nothing but an opinion. Especially when you're asking other people to refute yours. I came with facts. Cronk replies with insults. From that first reply and his response, I received emails from a couple different individuals who told me that it's people like him, at this site, that prevent them from participating more. He's just a different shade of the dipshit. I don't care how old he is or how many years he's hunted Iowa coyotes. Thousands upon thousands of people die every year with their heads full of misinformation. Being old doesn't necessarily make you right about everything.
I really didn't come back on this site to get into a dust up with Cronk. I genuinely missed everyone and checking in here daily. But, I just couldn't take timmy anymore. Now that I'm back, I have this asshole to deal with, so I will. I expressed a counter to his position and did my best to offer supporting facts. His reaction to my disagreeing with him, rather than offer up examples of personal experiences that refute the research, or linking to a contradictory study, is to call me an idiot and compare me to timmy. You guys do the math.
As far as Christmas, or Xmas, or whatever, I'm an agnostic. It's just another day to me.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted December 26, 2013 05:19 PM
6mm, there are wolves who are transients and do not belong to a pack, like coyotes. Those that are part of a pack, remain part of the pack until something happens that they depart or are cast out. Those that are transients remain that way until they find a mate, establish a defended territory and begin a new pack. Many parallels between the two species, as well as differences that are a function of adapting to their needs. I guess my point is that any one coyote moving in and out of a pack just doesn't happen where I live, and the science has proven that, except when the pack or a mate is removed through hunting or whatever. If it does, it doesn't necessarily negate the fact that the coyotes do form bonds, form packs, and work together as a family unit. The original question was, "Are coyotes a "pack animal"? Those that are part of a family group, or "pack", ARE.
Cronk says I'm dumb as shit and even wrong-er, but he can't prove it. The again, three years ago, he said he was finished talking to me, too. Go figure.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 26, 2013 05:53 PM
Leonard,
Please consider stopping that ass hole.
Thanks,
Rich
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
|
posted December 27, 2013 04:16 AM
Eisenhower said" An intellectual is a man who uses more words than necessary to tell more than he knows." So stop it Rich!
Where you and i live there may not be a large enough population of coyotes to display these "pack" traits' cause we sure don't see it. We so infrequently see more than two or three together ?
How about packing up for breakfast again sometime?
[ December 27, 2013, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted December 27, 2013 06:54 AM
6mm284,
I am done with this thread. Call me some time soon at 712-322-0168.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
|
posted December 27, 2013 05:30 PM
i hate studies.
they are to biased.
coyotes where i live behave WAY different than those only 30 miles east/west of me. don't even seem like the same animal.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 27, 2013 05:56 PM
...and, who's fault is that?
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 27, 2013 06:08 PM
Here's the thing. And, pay attention because I have said this before.
For me, the classical definition of PACK is a family group most clearly defined as in wolves. They have an alpha male and female and they do all the breeding, (supposedly, anyway?) They hunt together, eat together and sleep together, as a pack should. The "pack" could be 4 or 5 consisting of two adults and their pups, or if they have been a "pack" for several years, maybe 15 or 20 animals. But the numbers don't qualify, it's the fact that they are a working family.
Now, do not be confused by similar observed behavior which is only a snapshot in time where you might see a damned herd of coyotes running deer or something else in deep snow, or something else. The only thing similar about coyotes is they mate possibly for life and mostly, every year, their pups disperse. Sometimes, rarely a pup or two might hang with the parents for a season, but by the time breeding season approaches next year, the now adult pups will most likely seek their own mates.
As NASA once said: I can't make it any clearer. Coyotes are not a PACK animal in the same sense as are wolves. Period.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
|
posted December 28, 2013 04:18 AM
Very well and concisely sums it up leonard......amen!
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4324
|
posted December 28, 2013 06:13 AM
Leonard I think you hit it right on the head. Never seen coyotes acting like a true pack. I have seen more than two coyotes running together, but as Leonard said they were just a family group that the pups had not left yet. Everyone has there own opinion, may not agree with it but that's your right.
Posts: 275 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted December 28, 2013 09:27 AM
I'm going to rub Leonard's ego and say he's right again.. Just do the damn vote!
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted December 29, 2013 07:28 PM
I'll agree to disagree. Funny how Cronk hasn't denied being a liberal. And just like a liberal, when someone disagrees with you, you "stop" them. LOL At least 20 gauge and the others had balls enough to stand for who they were.
Stop THAT, cronk.
Okie dokie, I'll let it drop now. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 29, 2013 08:20 PM
Come on, you are supposed to have a biology degree, Lance. You can't be serious?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted December 30, 2013 07:02 PM
About this issue? I sure am. There are a LOT of things I have observed anecdotally in my life that led me to believe one thing but to discover my perceptions were inaccurate when the subject was actually studied. (Organized religion being a biggy.) Then again, I struggled through three semesters of biometrics until I had a firm grasp of the subject and learned at least two things. Math can reveal the truth, as best as we can, and that not all science is a conspiracy.
Funny how people who have no use for true science are fine with it when the conclusions parallel their reality and perception. Challenge what they think is true and they get all butt hurt over it.
Personally, I have little interest in debating this issue with Cronk. I see him as being too old a dog to even consider someone else's opinion and, based upon his response to mine, I wonder why in the hell he even posed the question to begin with. I mean, for chrissakes, doesn't it make sense that before you ask such a question in a public forum - especially THIS one - you might want to be minimally prepared to defend your position if/ when someone disagrees? Why in the hell would you get all bent out of shape and go to calling others names when they don't see things the same as you when you're the one that asked the question?
Better yet, after the names start flying, you make demands that dissenters be ousted. I have tongue in cheek stated that Cronk "might" be a liberal. Hell, it couldn't be any clearer at this point. Clearly Saul Alinski, Rules for Radicals, attempt to discredit and destroy anyone that disagrees with your position.
BTW, Rich, do you or anyone else in "The Party" have a well used copy of that I could buy cheap? Wouldn't spend my hard-earned cash to buy it new and I figure you must have a case or two of them lying around.
As far as the coyotes go, one thing that I find most amazing about vocalizations and how coyotes communicate with one another is that the meaning of a given sound here appears to be very close to the same as where any of you live. This tells me that their communication skills (ergo behavior) is organically based and intuitive and not a function of their local environment. Knowing what the studies revealed on Kansas coyotes as far as the cohesion between pack members year-round, I just don't see it as that great of a leap to consider that other behavioral traits - including packing behavior - isn't consistent across their range as well.
One thing the degree and all that biometrics taught me is that what you see isn't fact until the math proves it to be true. Your anecdotal observations are not valid data, as true as they may seem to be to you. They're your experiences, and as true as they may seem, they simply are not representative of the whole and never will be.
Therefore, my position is this: The studies of coyotes where I live demonstrated that 60-70% of coyotes stay together in family groups year-round, maintain actively defended territories within home ranges, and as has been observed frequently the past ten years in Kansas, exploit pack hunting strategies when pursuing large food sources such as deer. Are coyotes adaptable to the extent that they can survive as individuals? Certainly, thus the fact that they have survived better than wolves. All just rehashing stuff I posted earlier.
Let's close the circle. Cronk inquired,
quote:
I recently ran across a fellow who claims that coyote's are pack animals. I say they are not. What do you guys say?
If it will make Cronk feel better, my answer is, "I disagree with you", and leave it at that.
Kinda makes for a rather blunt and boring discussion, doesn't it?
If you, or Cronk, can provide irrefutable evidence that I am misreading the peer reviewed, published study results, then change my opinion.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
