The New Huntmastersbbs!: Locating

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Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on September 18, 2013, 04:34 PM:

When you guys are out locating from your pickup, how long do you wait to howl after you shut the pickup off? Also, how long do you wait after you howl?

I seem to have fairly good luck just shutting the engine down, putting the caller on the roof and playing a group howl immediately. Just wondering if anyone has better luck by waiting a while.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 18, 2013, 04:48 PM:

Coyotes will not only howl back to the howls of strange coyote in the area, but will also approach your position to investigate. If you stay very long after you hear them howl back, you will likely spook some coyotes.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on September 18, 2013, 05:02 PM:

Can't speak for NW coyotes, but sometimes it takes a couple doses of a group howl to bust SW coyotes loose.

Rich is right. Do it, make your notes and move on. The longer you stay, the more you teach.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 18, 2013, 05:08 PM:

Welcome to the New HuntmastersBBS.com 92soggy. Glad to have you on board.

Rich is correct. But, there's a lot more to it that waiting before or after. There is not least, exactly why you are locating and what you intend to do if you do get a response or you don't.

But, he is very correct in stating that if you aren't careful you are doing more harm than good. The thing is, the coyote doesn't know that you are "locating" and might just decide to trot over there and meet the new guy. So, if you are sitting in the cab picking your nose, and the coyote is circling your vehicle, you might have a hard time calling him later on, if ever.

But, there is a lot more to the theory than that and basing your actions on what response or lack of response you got from a group howl.

On the other hand, you say that you get, "fairly good luck" so I wouldn't change anything, were I you.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ September 18, 2013, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on September 18, 2013, 05:35 PM:

i start locating as soon as the drum of the truck motor clears from my ears.
i will usually wait about 3 minutes max to hear a responce.
don't know why but its quite common too have to wait 1-2 minutes after i howl.
i know guys that leave after 15 seconds if nothing answers

Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on September 18, 2013, 05:59 PM:

When I locate I usually have a rifle ready. Most of my locating is sitting on the tailgate in the evening and listening while being quiet.

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on September 18, 2013, 09:23 PM:

When I locate it's usually because I'm out hunting at night, and if I get a response close enough (say withing a half mile) I walk out towards em and try calling them in.

Some of the people I hunt with tell me I would have a better chance of getting the coyotes to respond If I wait for 5-10 minutes after shutting the rig off to howl.
Just wondering what the Pakmen think about that. [Smile]

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on September 18, 2013, 09:25 PM:

Thank you for the welcome Leonard. [Smile]

Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on September 18, 2013, 09:27 PM:

Thank you for the welcome Leonard. [Smile]

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on September 19, 2013, 06:21 AM:

If locating in the dark, I'm not so sure coyotes are smart enough to know that the sounds came from the truck, if they approach.
Lets say they didn't see the truck pull up but they heard a group howl and decide to investigate. They get there only to find a truck or watch a truck drive off, I'm not convinced that they can put two and two together if the group howl is all they heard, and even if they are smart enough to figure it out, most of us aren't going to come back and try to call them in with the group howl, so IMO, no damage done.
If locating in the dark, I like to start with a siren. I run it for 30-60 sec., then I wait quietly for a couple of minutes, if nothing howls I then will do a group howl. Works pretty good.

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 19, 2013, 06:28 AM:

I'd like to hear what Scott, Cal and Randy have to say about locating coyotes that need killin.

PS Good to see you are still kicking Brad.

Stay after them
Kelly

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 19, 2013, 08:03 AM:

I'm reading more "group howl" chatter than, say "Lone Howl" which I tend to favor. But again, depends on what you are trying to do. I do not locate at night, for the purpose of returning in daylight to make a stand from where I heard a response, the night before.

I think a siren is just as effective, maybe more so, than a coyote vocalization. First, there is little danger that they will respond by approaching. Second, they really are helpless, they pretty much have to respond, if they hear the siren. As in most cases, it's anybody's guess as to how long they will take their sweet time in responding, but probably sooner than later.

As far as hearing from the pros, I'm wondering if they might opine whenever it would be a negative, locating a problem coyote? Also, in some parts of the country, the coyotes are noticeably tight lipped, all the time or sometimes. Now, what you gonna do?

As Burnham once said, "sometimes this shit don't work".

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: PS, did I mention, I'm fucking deaf? I like to ride with somebody that has virgin ears when locating, like koko.

[ September 19, 2013, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 19, 2013, 09:08 AM:

Huh????
My hearing in the upper ranges is totally gone. It's been decades since I've heard a cricket chirp.
I once had a really bad streak of luck bow-hunting for deer. Just could not get in on anything without being spotted. The Dumb Light finally came on when a friend asked me how long the alarm on my new digital watch had been beeping. I couldn't hear it even holding it up to my ear. [Eek!]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 19, 2013, 05:11 PM:

"I'm reading more "group howl" chatter than, say "Lone Howl" which I tend to favor. But again, depends on what you are trying to do. I do not locate at night, for the purpose of returning in daylight to make a stand from where I heard a response, the night before."
----------------------------------
There it is in a nut shell boys. I don't locate at night because I don't call em at night. Coyotes are out hunting at night. If you locate them at midnight, they will be somewhere else come morning. Sure it is good to locate em at night when trying to locate dens in the spring, but that is a whole different game.

Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on September 20, 2013, 04:25 AM:

regional differances in responces for sure.
very rare to get 1 here in NW Mn. may have to do with the wolf population??.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 20, 2013, 07:31 AM:

Couple years back, was walking up the hill to make a stand an hour before dark. 2/3 of the way there, heard a vehicle bringin' da mail down the rural highway, 2/3 mile away. State trooper, and he had somewhere to be...FAST. After the wailing sirens passed, a pack of coyotes lit up on the opposing ridge, across the highway. It was worth trudging back down, crossing and setting up close to the howlers. Missed a pup on a driveby @ 300 right away, but managed to pulled a big hackled up male out in to mess with the dog and dry gulched it...

Since we can night hunt here, I will only howl after dark when actually making a stand. Figure I educated alot more coyotes than I killed by trying to 'locate' them. Evidence in the snow suggests that pleny of times, my stand (howling)location has been approached by coyotes. Either I never knew they were there, or they took their sweet azz time and strolled by before dawn broke.
Tracks in the snow the morning after don't lie, the coyotes here seem to like investigating a foreign howl, even hours afterward. That is something I remember Rich Higgins saying at a speaking engagement, and ever since I check my stands the day after to see if & how I screwed up regarding setup and where they approached from. Sometimes tracks would show they moseyed right in where I would have easily seen them. Other times, they hung in the brush, in a blind spot, whatever...
Long & short is, I never howl at night unless its go time!

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 20, 2013, 07:57 PM:

I agree with TRnCO post..

For locating with E-caller I use group howl followed by two lone howls and wait no more than 5 minutes. With hand howlers I will have 3-4 of them with me and use one or more at each stop.
From what I have read on the net. coyotes are "territorial" so if you locate a pair or more at night they will still be there with-in hearing distance the next day and had some that remained in the area for more than a week.. I also like to locate on calm nights and if a slight breeze comes up then I locate certain sections calling into the wind.. Over cast nights or what Roede calls dirty sky seems to produce the best and clear sky with full moon not so good unless you are very close to start with. And no it doesn't wise up any coyotes that you plan to call a few hrs. or days later...
How much locating will a coyote put up with?
Depends on its security level or age, I've had them answer back most times out all through the winter. [Smile]

[ September 20, 2013, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 20, 2013, 09:30 PM:

Has anybody considered food sources when `locating`??
I'm thinking that coyotes that answer locating howls from an apple orchard or a dead-pile are more likely to still be close by the next morning than coyotes chasing jackrabbits all over the place.
I can go along with howling / locating to get a general idea of population numbers in a general area, but to me, the concept of howling to plan the following morning's stands is a bit flawed.
YMMV.

Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on September 21, 2013, 04:46 AM:

In 'sectioned' country it doesn't do a damn bit of good.First there are coyotes in most sections and brain cells ought to tell you where.Second,where they are in the dark mean little as to where they are at dawn.Third,the opposite of 'good' is ...
In 'big' country it rarely does any good that I've seen.Same thing,where we most often hear them is where we where going anyway.And,the opposite of 'good' is....
I'd rather focus on the bait cause the fish will always be there-or close.So,locate bait.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 21, 2013, 06:59 AM:

Yeah, but guys like Huber never cold call. He howls and moves towards the response, and keeps doing it until he's close enough to make a stand.

First, you have to do an interesting howl. Second, your ears have to be good enough to hear a response, and for as long as it takes.

Third, he is a friggin' hiker of the first order. Some of the stands, when I hunted with him were the longest "walk in" I have ever experienced.

Then again, he said, when he hunted the San Carlos a few years ago that he was completely stumped, so he's not too versed on western conditions, stuff I deal with every day.

In a word, regional.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 21, 2013, 07:34 AM:

I agree with Leonard. Evidently the South Dakota coyotes don't mind howling in daytime. Too much walking burns up good calling time too. Man Oh Man, it is SO much easier to drive to within 100 yards of a stand than walking a mile or more to get there. Huber is gonna be pissed at me for saying that, but the truth is sometimes painful ya know.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 21, 2013, 07:48 AM:

quote:
In 'sectioned' country it doesn't do a damn bit of good.First there are coyotes in most sections and brain cells ought to tell you where

Depends on the numbers for a given area, like here you won't find a coyote in every good looking section.. Terr. here is 3-5 miles with most staying with-in 3 miles of core area. Sure a guy that knows his area can drive most anywhere and find coyote sign. The question is what section are they in on a certain day. The section across the road to the west or are they in the section to the east or perhaps a bird hunter kicked them up in one section so they moved 2 miles to the north.
The purpose of locating is to find out where they are spending most of there time on avr. so fewer stands have to be made and if you make a stand you will know if you were calling to coyotes with-in hearing distance or just a empty section.
I locate them also for areas or sections I plan to hunt which saves time from walking one or two empty sections..
I'd say the avr. call in ratio for a good area is 1 out of every 4 stands, wouldn't it be nice to increase your call in numbers to say 2&4 or 3&4, or action on every stand you make. Bet most would choose the later as well..
Time a hunter has to hunt can be a big factor for some that have to drive a long distance to get into a good area and its well worth taking a extra day just to locate as the coyotes will be around the same spot you located them in prior all week..
I did a hunt a few years back and located 30 some coyotes which was more than enough for a few days of calling. I spent more time driving than calling but had a coyote or coyotes respond on most stands with a avr. ratio of 3 out of 4 stands.. Came back to the area weeks later and called other spots I had located and still had great success.... So the question is why wouldn't you want to locate if its going to up your numbers??? [Smile]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 21, 2013, 08:01 AM:

"its well worth taking a extra day just to locate as the coyotes will be around the same spot you located them in prior all week.."
-----------------------------
Unless they are spooked out by a bird hunter, or maybe decided to cross over into a different section while hunting at night. Coyotes do in fact move around a lot while out hunting. [Big Grin]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 21, 2013, 08:25 AM:

quote:
Coyotes do in fact move around a lot while out hunting.

Yep! They also like to return to the same spot or area they feel most comfortable in during the day time.. [Big Grin]

I have some coyotes that hunt mostly the early mourning hrs. and will move back to there core area just minutes prior to the school bus passing through there area and some will move across a road after the bus has been through. Some will go so far as to adjust there movement to a local hunter that drives the same back roads every mourning taking the same route and coming through at roughly the same time.
A mother that decides to haul the kids to school in the car a little earlier than the bus pick up can change the coyotes plan of returning to the same section and the coyote may hold up for the day in the next section but after a day or so the coyote is back to its same routine.
In the area out west that I call in the best time to catch any coyotes moving about is after most of the ranchers with there kids have gone to town so anytime after 8:00 a.m. till noon is a good time for a visual locate.... Some areas will also see a lot of traffic or people pressure and cause them to move back to the outer edges of there terr. and they will most always be there..
Go out a couple times a month and locate the same coyote at early evening, mid-night or early mourning and find out for yourself they will be pretty close to the same spot you located from prior.. [Big Grin]

Edit to add: If I might add some coyotes in some parts of the country will re-act differently to locate howls depending on security levels and the time of year you locate.
I know during the summer months when family groups are still in tact some groups will respond to your locate howls and also take it as a threat and will move the group farther back into its terr. and away from the threat.. Knowing this if the coyotes don't respond to the first stand I make I just go deeper into there terr. and make one or two more stands and then I'm onto them and if I didn't move in too far then I can just work the edges and hopefully get 2-3 coyotes from a group.

[ September 21, 2013, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on September 21, 2013, 02:30 PM:

I'll bet the weekends - No school buses or transporting of children by the 'ol minivan, really must screw with a coyote's mind, as well as his travel plans. I think its about Etch-a-Sketch time, Tim. You know how much better we all get your point with a visual.....

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 21, 2013, 03:01 PM:

Umm! Why would it?

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 23, 2013, 06:24 AM:

Has anyone figured out a way to quantify what % of coyotes respond to a howl physically, as opposed to vocally?
If a coyote skips the vocal response and opts to investigate via approaching the sound, can someone explain how a coyote wouldn't put 2+2 together after encountering human stimuli in the area of the locator howls?
How does that 'locating' scenario differ from a blown stand?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2013, 08:38 AM:

Not, sure exactly what the question is?

But, I treat every howl as a stand. I don't toot a horn leaning against the fender and listening intently for a vocal response.

I fully expect a coyote to move towards the source and will have in my hands, the ability to deal with him.

Therefore, locating, for me is a weird concept and I don't know, (precisely) how to do it, strictly as a poll of the countryside?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on September 23, 2013, 09:56 AM:

Ive never "located coyotes" with howls,sirens or other noise makers in the 45 years Ive been actively hunting them. I admit this with a bit of humility, knowing it is the thing to do now days, but I just never picked it up, or learned the practice correctly?
I locate in a sense I suppose; where ever I go, out dove hunting or rabbit hunting or just looking over different country, I constantly have my eyes on the ground. It has become a subconscious practice, it's just part of looking at everything else while Im out rambling around.
When I go out calling, Im all ready reasonably sure there are coyotes in the area, for Ive seen sign a week or two before while out driving around. Nothing mystical, but Im sure lots of guys like me, who hunt the same portion of their state, develop a degree of intuition from just knowing what your coyotes like to live in, or what pastures the ranches you hunt like to move cattle to for calving etc.
I took a new guy out a year or so ago, got him set up on an open flat above a dry wash. Had him sit on my left side as I always do when hunting with another guy, and just before I hit the go button, told him to shift and angle his rifle to his left and pay attention to a brush line on that side. He kept saying I had the luxury of looking at all the good looking area to the center and right.
In about three minutes, a big coyote came running in right down the muzzle of his rifle and he of course killed it. He would not quit quizzing me on how in the hell I knew that coyote would come in right where I had him pointed.
How do you explain a stand and the particulars to a newbie?,to them, it's a simple exercise they have read about or watched on a video. Drive,walk,sit,call and kill a coyote; repeat as necessary until you've had your fill.
I got off topic, and apologize, but to a degree, don't you just begin to "know" where coyotes will be, or won't be? Maybe Im missing the boat on learning how to howl and locate....or maybe, if I hunted somewhere different than southern Arizona, I couldn't kill a coyote on a bet:)

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 23, 2013, 10:38 AM:

Leonard, I phrased those questions rhetorically, to bring up the very point you stated. I just can't see the difference between 'locator howling' and howling on stand, from a coyote's perspective?
Is distance the determining factor a coyote considers before physically investigating a howl?

Mr. Vic, I've seen the stand 'voodoo magic' you spoke of, firsthand, when hunting with KJ...

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on September 23, 2013, 11:48 AM:

I've been watching this thread, hoping to learn something maybe.

I'll just say, the locating thing as LB mentioned is wierd to me. Like Vic, I'm always looking @ the ground when, I'm out and about. Turds rule in my opinion.

In a hunting situation, I've managed to somehow howl up a coyote or two, to what I consider a reasonable distance to shoot them.

Those never howled back, those that did, were way out there somewhere.

Dunno ? just my thoughts.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2013, 12:58 PM:

I have tried to explain something about that sixth sense thing, which is, as Vic said nothing mystical, but some people have it and some don't.

It's like knowing where to drop a line in a body of water. To me, birdy areas might as well have a neon sign hanging somewhere, and a gamey area just seems to be obvious.

The problem is, like he said, somebody asks you how you know and you can't explain it. Somebody either "gets" it or he doesn't. No crime in not having this insight, many do quite well, as does the pig that occasionally turns up a truffle. Some are better at this than others.

Now, referring to what Dave just wrote, he howls and they come in and others respond, way out there. I think that's something to consider. It's kinda like calling coyotes, in general. The closer the proximity, the more likely you will see movement.

Now, the reasons why they might be content to respond vocally are several. First, there could be territorial issues. Second, third and fourth, there can be environmental considerations. Such as atmospheric conditions, maybe a cold front is moving in or it looks like rain? Don't discount moon phases for the reactions we are looking for. Sometimes, they just aren't in the mood, and even they don't know why.

Here is an example I have used before, and a reason why I might howl when hunting, at night. Let's just say the coyotes are moving around in big country and you might do some howling the entire length of a valley until getting a response. Now, this is where to start making stands when previously, all you turned up were blanks, in good country, I might add.

The other thing is, I try not to waste my time in areas of low population density. It only makes sense to call where they are, and that's the whole point of this subject. One tool in the box, nothing more.

Good discussion, keep it going and maybe we will turn up a nugget?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on September 23, 2013, 01:21 PM:

Fuck locating...just go calling.
Discussion over..im locking this thread.
Regards,
Mark

Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on September 23, 2013, 02:42 PM:

Amen.I 'locate' every time I'm out hunting.
I can buy the 'tool' concept and my territorial experience is limited so I can't address the value of night locating out west or similar terrain but to me,locating at night in the areas I hunt is a waste of time.Unless you are actually night hunting.
Around here we have guys running around 'locating' at midnight or whenever then going into the areas they had responses from at dawn.I'd wager 90% of the time those responding coyotes have moved on.Likely a couple miles on.They may have action in that area but likely from different coyotes.Howl at midnight and you'll get responses from many big lakes or sloughs.Have at em in the morning if you want but be prepared to travel a couple miles.(Of course Minnesota is the exception I suppose which would only serve to prove even the coyotes in Mn are fucked up)
On a somewhat related subject,trail cameras have incidental 'locational' value in some areas(again futile and non practical out west and in most areas one hunts).I'm always amazed during deer seasons what areas and times the coyotes show up on them.A pic on a camera I checked today had one on a hillside at a time he had to have been watching a goose hunt take place right across an abandoned railroad right of way.
Edited for self preservation purposes:Everything in Mn is fucked up except Bearhunter and his bride.

[ September 23, 2013, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: DiYi ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2013, 02:48 PM:

I hope many are aware that coyotes are very curious about human activity....as long as they are not the focus of that activity. But, they can tell if you are busy digging a hole or sitting in a lawn chair reading the paper. In situations like that, they start thinking they are invisible. And, you don't want to act like you see them because they are very self aware.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 23, 2013, 05:53 PM:

The coyotes here in western Iowa are highly pressured, and therefore are pretty shut mouthed during the day. I can only recall ONE Iowa coyote that howled back at my initial howl before coming in. Woops! Make that two different coyotes. I once trash talked a wet female right up a rock road in attempt to run me off.

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 23, 2013, 11:33 PM:

I almost always use coyote vocals on every stand because in my opinion, some pressured coyotes will not respond to the usual prey distress. And any time I use a vocal, the stand starts fresh.

One time Geordie and I were in Arizona and it was getting close to dark so we knew it would be the last stand of the day. I went thru about 12 minutes of rabbit and a couple other prey distress sounds and there were no takers. I then howled and got an immediate response from about a half mile away. I waited a few minutes and howled again and the coyote had cut the distance in half. I knew I was done calling and just waited for Geordie to shoot who was positioned about 70 yards downwind. A couple of minutes later he did just that. The coyote had not budged during the prey distress, but a couple howls shook him loose.

Another trip we were in northern Arizona and were trying several different sounds on every stand in order to see what would produce. I know this is several variables, but with a little experience a person can judge what is working based upon response times and the condition of the coyote when he arrives. Anyways, we would start off with some rabbit and wait a few minutes then kiyi. It seemed to us the kiyi was the sound so we quit all other sounds and just used it with very good success.

If I get a howl back, I can pretty much tell if the coyote is going to come or not based upon the distance between us. Of course some come without saying a word too, but judging the distance is important.

My cousin and I were in Kansas and I howled to start the stand. Two reponses. One from the east and a little north and a group howled back from the east and a little south. Both too far to come. We stayed with that stand and then moved on the howlers. I told Troy to waypoint our present position and tell me when we were 1.75 miles from there as we headed to the group. We found a place to hide the truck and walked towards the the area I believed they were. One howl and 3 came in and we shot two. We then headed north to the loner and got in the general area. This time we used prey distress and shot that one too.

Another time we were on the Cimmarron River and I howled at the begining of the stand and a group of 3 or 4 responded east of us and in the river. I did some rabbit and one coyote came out and was acting really nervous. He didn't stick around long and back into the river he went. We moved about a mile and a half to get a different angle on the group, but we were still within a half mile of their location. Only used grey fox pup distress and two came into us and we shot them both.

I like howling them up. LOL

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 24, 2013, 04:30 AM:

Yeah, but.............
At that point, `howling` is leaning toward calling rather than locating.

Still cool, though!!! [Cool]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2013, 09:52 AM:

AR Shaw has a strong point, and that is using every tool in the shed. I like to howl on stand, randomly. Seems to be a way of covering all the bases.

But, the original question is about locating as a stand alone method. I do not say it has no value, I say that I don't locate. And, I have my reasons.

But, howling while on stand is a different animal, so to speak. You may accidentally "locate" as he points out, but since my hearing is so poor, I am reduced to hoping a coyote comes in silently. Might as well be silent, if I can't hear it over the sound of the ecaller.

It is the same as any other change of sound while on stand. Some people would include a cricket chirp as an ambient sound, (sorta) as proposed by Bill Martz's WT.

That's what is the name of the game: CALLING. By whatever means and using whatever sound that entices the wary coy o tee. Hey, if one spinner bait ain't producing, you put it away and try another until you find something that works. Well, a little piece of pork rind on the trailing hook can't hurt....and a lone howl, now and then won't even queer a response from a gray or a cat, they all keep coming.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 24, 2013, 10:12 AM:

I keep a howler or two in the truck and if I'm out and see a likely spot at the right time I might just see who's home.

Key thing is the right time, as Scott said right about when the yard lights start to come on.

I already know the place looks good or I wouldn't have stopped (6th sense). But as a lot of places around here, they all can look good so if I can get a response, it helps plan my approach on another day.

I went up to the NE part of the state this weekend and saw some rolling hills with a few trees in the drainages and thought how easy and fun it would be to call country like that. Around here it all can hold a coyote or two...

Posted by Brad Norman (Member # 234) on September 24, 2013, 06:41 PM:

Years ago I started to end a stand with a howl to let my partner know I was done and ready to move on. It didn't take me long to learn that after that howl we should stay put for 5 minutes. It seems to work better than an elk bugle. I'm no expert and can't tell you why, but I've killed quite a few in those last 5 minutes.

Kelly - I'm still kicking but was waiting to see what Frank's plans were. I've got a reputation to protect you know. How are things in Cotton County?

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 25, 2013, 06:32 AM:

Cotton County is still good, if you got a job Brad.

All the local football teams are suckin hind tit...coyote levels are the same, but dropping weekly..lol
kj

Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on September 25, 2013, 06:26 PM:

I guess the point of "locating" is to ultimately save time and maximize your results on stand..

However, AZ seems to have a healthy population and just never got into it..

I agree, turds rule!

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 27, 2013, 04:54 AM:

I've kinda surmised that coyotes will howl more readily when they are in a certain known area that is a 'safe zone', of sorts, for them. However, when travelling between those safe zones, the same coyote is less apt to respond vocally to another coyote.
They might approach a howl silently, circle wide and use their nose & eyes to detect the presence of the other "coyote" that howled. But they seem uneasy about giving away their position with a vocal response...

For the guys who know alot more than me, (which is basically everyone here) is there any truth to that notion? Or am I just putting a shoe on cuz it fits?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2013, 10:08 AM:

Not wishing to offend, Fred. But, I know of no basis for your supposition? Can't say it's wrong, but I doubt it.

The reasons why coyotes howl, (or don't howl) appear to be very complex. In close to fifty years of interacting with coyotes on various levels, I can't say with any degree of confidence; why they will howl except for a specific response to a siren, like most canines and even then, I would not bet my life on it.

Conversely, and unexpectedly I have had a coyote engage me in an unbelievable scolding, when on stand, as an example. In these encounters, I am pretty well convinced that they know and are directing their vocalization at a human. Which is not to say that a coyote will not scold a recording of a coyote vocalization, whether downwind or not.

One phenomena I have encountered, primarily in northern Nevada, although I doubt that it is confined to that area? We have had nights where every damned coyote within a hundred miles are extremely vocal, like an epidemic. I don't associate it with moon phases because we generally plan our hunts in the dark of the moon. But, when knee deep in this situation, I can tell you that they are virtually unhuntable. The only solution is to wait them out or drive (not exaggerating) maybe fifty miles to escape these zoned out animals.

But, I have mentioned before, aside from howling, that sometimes there is some kind of celestial control on coyote behavior. Example; they all charge in on a string, for half the night, followed by: every single animal circles downwind, with varying degrees of success, think misting.

I also am of the opinion that coyotes are much more prone to vocalize when hidden, meaning distance or in some cases, in a wash or behind brush. I seldom see them vocalize out in wide open spaces. Maybe it's just my luck, but I know they are close but am unable to put a bullet in them.

Of course, I could be totally full of shit.

Good hunting. Lima Brav 0

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 27, 2013, 04:14 PM:

None taken, Leonard. I concede that I could be full of shit, too. Just trying to logically deduce what I've experienced here in the NE.
Seems like our coyotes like to howl well enough, but they only seen to do it from some type of 'safe' area. Be it a ridge top, a thick swamp, or other safe haven. Regardless, the howls always seem to echo back from the same area, year after year. Very rarely will I hear a howl from a more open locale, even at night...

Which has led me to believe that these coyotes just seem more willing to respond vocally from a known safe haven or core area. Like I said, I could be way off, and was asking if this is something others have experienced in their AO? Or, is it a continual crapshoot as to where a coyote will howl from?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 27, 2013, 07:47 PM:

I don't know, didn't the professor have a radio collared coyote run back to his turf before answering a howl?

I've noticed while sitting in a tree stand, different packs would light up from the same place each evening when I'd howl at em.

I think the idea has merit but certainly don't know. No offense ElBee.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 27, 2013, 09:26 PM:

Tom, not offended, everybody has an opinion, and in this case, it's sorta hard to prove one way or another.

As far as that professor, that idiot was so closed minded, he wouldn't even discuss his theories with we unwashed HM members because we had a shitpile of questions.

Anybody that thinks they are studying coyote behavior inside a fenced area and uses a helicopter to net them every so often, well, as I said above, he's a friggin' idiot and is wasting taxpayer money. They aren't free ranging coyotes so he actually has no valid data, as far as I'm concerned.

This has nothing to do with this particular question. Maybe Fred's right, maybe you are. Myself, I don't know and wouldn't hazard a guess, which, (admittedly) isn't very like me.

Maybe if you are dealing with isolated animals in their (so called) core areas, it could be a valid theory. I'm not sure how useful it is, if it's true? Especially if you base all your actions on coyotes that feel safe, responding over yonder.

On the other hand, I don't get too deep into what type of vocal coyote I am dealing with. As far as I am concerned, a vocal coyote is much harder to kill than a silent coyote.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 28, 2013, 06:59 AM:

Vic I agree if you know a certain area real well you can go to them most anytime and most likely call some in. For me when locating it gives me a good idea of the numbers there (size of family group)and where about they are scattered so I have a good idea of what direction to head for the next stand. By knowing what's there I can just dive in and hit the center of the group or work my way in along the fridges (get what's there). Certain times of year some of the coyotes will shift to a certain type of cover corn fields, CRP, pastures, or hardwoods and some just stay where they have always been..
When calling in a area where you are limited to the number of coyotes that hear your call its nice to know where they are during the day so you don't bump them on the way in or plan where you can make a stand to your advantage with the wind in your favor... You locate and know where the coyote is so you know for a fact you are not calling on a empty stand so you use every sound or trick in the book to try and call a certain coyote in and spend as much time on stand as it would take to bring the coyote in, there are very few other places to go on certain days so you give it your best shot. Some come in some don't but at least you know there is a coyote there...

As for Rich C. post the coyotes here are pretty much closed mouth as well during the day that's why night locating works best. If I may add there are certain times of the year you can get them to howl during the day even here in Min...

As for Freds post they can and well howl back from where they are at the time you locate unless a coyote happens to be on the wrong side of the border (terr. line). It may howl back right away or you might have to wait for it to get back across the line. This is in an area with a higher coyote population. Yeah they also howl back from the same general area most every time here as well and is a good place to make a stand or go in with the dogs.

quote:
On the other hand, I don't get too deep into what type of vocal coyote I am dealing with. As far as I am concerned, a vocal coyote is much harder to kill than a silent coyote.

I'm just the opposite and will take a vocal coyote any day of the week over a sneaker. I find them fun to call to and to sharpen your calling skills on. ( use of sounds)

As for the howling on stand I hunted with some good callers one time and due to my hearing at the time I couldn't tell what sounds they used or didn't and the game plan was to make 15 minute stands taking turns calling and then move on. We had some stands with plenty of coyote sign and they just screamed coyote but after 15 minutes was up no takers so I would give out a couple of lone howls and with-in seconds we had a coyote on top of us and this happened more than once.. One of the members asked me to stop howling at the end of their stands.. I thought we was on a calling trip to call/kill coyotes and didn't care who called them in as long as we got them to come in. Hmmm

Had a few stands I made with Higgy, nothing showed on my rabbit sounds but the howls sure changed there mind..LOL
Now days I use coyote vocals on most of my stands mixed in with prey distress sounds.. [Smile]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 28, 2013, 02:08 PM:

"I don't know, didn't the professor have a radio collared coyote run back to his turf before answering a howl?"
------------------------
LOL, that guy studied his City coyote's a lot.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 28, 2013, 02:16 PM:

"after 15 minutes was up no takers so I would give out a couple of lone howls and with-in seconds we had a coyote on top of us and this happened more than once.."
------------------
Well I'll be go to Hell! Timmy has spoken a few words of wisdom, and he spoke them right here on the King of the coyote board.

Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on September 28, 2013, 02:29 PM:

Jesus!

For the record, never heard of the term, Dirty Sky, never heard anyone I have ever been around use the term either!

Just sad what's happened to the forums.

Used to be a place to share and learn, now its just a place to steal and repeat and then they get it all screwed up!

That will sure lead a person to be reluctant to post anything with merit.

Vic and LB you have a pile of dead coyotes left in your tracks and enjoy hearing your thoughts along with ole Cronk. Very interesting.

As I've gotten older I have found this to be true more often than not. People who want to tell you to much to fast about how and what they do are usually full of crap. I see it's still holding true!

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 28, 2013, 05:01 PM:

quote:
As I've gotten older I have found this to be true more often than not. People who want to tell you to much to fast about how and what they do are usually full of crap. I see it's still holding true!

Then I must of stole it from the big crapper as well. You think???

Actually I'm getting a little older and wiser and I realized there are enough coyotes around for everyone so why bother to keep any big secretes. Isn't that what the boards are for, to help others ??? Sorry if it kind of pulls you out of the lime-light but hey you still got P.M and NPHA.

quote:
For the record, never heard of the term, Dirty Sky, never heard anyone I have ever been around use the term either!

I've only heard the term used once in my life by you when you was hunting with me a few years back and hey I gave you credit for it as well. How about that..LOL

Hey while I got your attention why not fill me and others in on how a hound should track or trail a coyote, I'm sure you are well versed on this subject as well.. LOL

Sorry Leonard....

[ September 28, 2013, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on September 28, 2013, 05:38 PM:

And there it is!

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 28, 2013, 05:56 PM:

Hey Randy Roede I don't see you posting much on the Working dogs forum.. Of course most trolls don't hang around long....

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 28, 2013, 06:16 PM:

That's the thanks you get, Tim. After teaching him everything you know, he gets uppity, gives you no credit whatsoever. As my mom, (a native Minneesotan) used to say: "Shit and shoved in it!"

I think everybody knows that TA is a rehab project. I'm trying to get him to quit pissing everybody off. A smattering of luck, thus far, but damn it! I know we can get him to the point where he can be a valued contributor. Besides, I have a ten dollar bet riding on it. [Smile]

It will be the hardest earned money since paperboy days, if I ever see it?

Randy, you are always welcome here.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 28, 2013, 06:57 PM:

quote:
That's the thanks you get, Tim. After teaching him everything you know, he gets uppity, gives you no credit whatsoever.

Thanks & credit?? Isn't that what some want or desire to boost there ego.. I don't need it.. ha ha

Been out locating for a number of years now and learned more from the coyotes than anyone person could teach but hey If I need to give credit to someone I guess it would be Scott H.. Just like to prove to Scott his time wasn't wasted... [Wink]

Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 29, 2013, 08:12 AM:

Huber should be so proud.

Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 29, 2013, 12:39 PM:

3 Toes: "Huber should be so proud."

Smartass! Lol!

TA 17: "Just like to prove to Scott his time wasn't wasted..."

I'll let the readers decide.....

TA 17: "For me when locating it gives me a good idea of the numbers there (size of family group)and where about they are scattered so I have a good idea of what direction to head for the next stand."

drum roll please ...... from the very same post .......

TA 17: "As for the howling on stand I hunted with some good callers one time and due to my hearing at the time I couldn't tell what sounds they used or didn't....."

Tim,

Let's be honest like you were at the end of that thread. You can't hear so what good does it do for you to locate???

Let me guess, you started wearing hearing aids or taking someone with better hearing with you between the time you couldn't hear what sounds others were using and when you determined the value of locating coyotes?

I know for a fact you can't hear very well which is why you can raise the WT above your head and rotate it in different directions which is not a bad idea for those who can't hear.

Sorry Tim but don't expect me to cut you any slack when you contradict yourself so blatantly.

~SH~

[ September 29, 2013, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]

Posted by Wily E (Member # 3649) on September 29, 2013, 12:52 PM:

To the original question, locating will change your success from calling coyotes on 30% of your stands to calling coyotes on 50% of your stands in areas where you actually have coyotes in numbers worth calling. Certainly not Southern Campbell County Wyoming. Lol!

Just a general rule of thumb:

Close coyotes (within 1/2 mile) will usually approach the howl and once in a while respond vocally, mid range coyotes (1/2 - 1 mile) will usually answer with a shorter response and may or may not approach, and coyotes beyond a mile (if you can hear them), will usually respond for a longer period of time and you will usually have to go to them. Back to that walking thing again Rich?

I think locating has a lot of value for those of us who still have some of our hearing left. I sure can't hear as well as I used to.

As far as educating coyotes, if your howl sounds realistic, there is nothing more natural to a coyote than answering another coyote.

After they answer I use the Obama Health Care call and watch those liberal coyotes come running.

~SH~

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 29, 2013, 03:12 PM:

Scott I bought a pair of Walker game-ear Quads a few months after I hunted with Roede, they work pretty darn good and much cheaper than buying a suppresser. I can hear a located coyote howl a little over a half mile away which is good enough for me since we have mostly 1 mile sections. Can also pick them up around a mile when sitting to the downwind side of a located coyote..From time to time I also take along one or two ride along's with young fresh ears. I just have them point in the direction they hear the coyote or coyotes howl from, then once back in the truck I ask them how they sounded. You know a old gravely howl or a clean higher pitch and so on. After that I may move around to a closer spot and locate them again and hopefully be close enough to hear them with the Game-ears and then have a good idea of what I have.. The pups are pretty cool to locate in summer time like some people they don't know when to shut up.. LOL
In the Dakotas where I locate you can get some pretty good echo's down in the drainages which also makes it easy for me to pick-up but can be difficult to detect how far out they are but still have a good idea of the direction to head.. (I'm not deaf just miss out on certain tones or people that talk with a soft girlish voice)) LOL

quote:
Just a general rule of thumb:

Close coyotes (within 1/2 mile) will usually approach the howl and once in a while respond vocally, mid range coyotes (1/2 - 1 mile) will usually answer with a shorter response and may or may not approach, and coyotes beyond a mile (if you can hear them), will usually respond for a longer period of time and you will usually have to go to them.

I agree when locating in some other parts of the country but it don't fly here.
Coyotes with-in a 1/2 mile or less will not approach here but do howl. Had a coyote a few years back less than 50 yds. from the road howl back as soon as I played the locate howl, it also stood there in the CRP long enough for me to get a light beam on it.
Mid range coyotes here will have a mixed length of time in how long the howls are maybe due to there security level or other coyotes howling from different locations.
Some areas with a higher number of coyotes will also howl longer and like in some of the S.D drainages you can hear a chain reaction like domino's falling...

Sorry if I disagree with your general rule but I'm not cutting you any slack either. [Razz]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 29, 2013, 03:47 PM:

" Back to that walking thing again Rich?"
----------------------------------------
Scott,
In a word, no. I walked that far to a stand once, and that was enough. No need to walk that far, especially in a location such as the one that I walked with a predator control man and his dogs.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 29, 2013, 04:46 PM:

Rich you have any coyotes left??
Coming through your area around Thanksgiving maybe we could make a few stands, if not then I'll just spend more time south of you.. [Smile]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 29, 2013, 06:09 PM:

Tim,
There are a few coyote's left, but I don't get out calling very much these days. My health ain't good. Me and my furry Grandson spend a lot of time on my favorite Lazy boy.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 29, 2013, 06:17 PM:

Sorry to hear Rich. Looks like your grandson enjoys the lazy boy also. Stay well....

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 30, 2013, 05:12 AM:

Tim,
If you come in to Council Bluffs on I-29, just turn right on Ave E and stop in at 1826. Free coffee and soda pop available.

While you are here, ask me why I would rather drive to within 100 yards of a calling stand rather than walk a couple of miles or so to get there.

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 03, 2013, 06:26 AM:

Good to see you rich, regardless of the relaxed position in the pic, you still look incredibly onery. I agree with most of the howling remarks here,at one time or another have seen most of the coyote responses mentioned.. But as you know ,once the deer and coyote chasing pickups hit the fields, everything changes and remains that the rest of the season in sw iowa.
A few years ago we had those two winters with snow that kept vehicles out of the fields all winter.Very little foot traffic also. The unmodified behavoir of the coyotes those winters was something i had not seen in many years if ever, very much like the way i had seen Nv and Ca coyotes act..i had a hayday since i was the only one walking in.
I also howl to locate in the early evening, to get an idea over time of where the coyotes tend to spend the most time.either a lone howl or group, whichever gets the response.in the mornings early i can get them to lite up sometimes. I then move in and howl. It seems if i get a single howl back with no more responses i sit tight and quiet and they will likely show up but slowly and are usually single males..
Sometimes coyotes don't seem to move as far overnite here as one might think. On fresh snow i have seen coyotes tracks late at nite to pick the track up the next day and find the coyote still in the same 1 mile section.Which was a surprise.
After harvest is over maybe we can have breakfast together again.
I keep your howler with me all the time hunting and actually blow it pretty well, or so i think, the coyotes seem to like it too.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 03, 2013, 09:09 AM:

6mm284,
I am lucky enough to have quite a large area north of Magnolia that is too rugged for the pickup truck nuts. I pretty much gave up on the Avoca area because it simply isn't good for calling around there. I'm sure there are area's near the Nishna river that would work, but I didn't have permission there.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 03, 2013, 10:06 AM:

WHAT! The Cronkster can't get permission in parts of his own state? What a revolting development! I'm writing my congressman.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 03, 2013, 02:09 PM:

Rich, i think they should ask you for permission not to hunt there!

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 03, 2013, 02:13 PM:

CRONKSTER FOR GOVERNATOR.

[ October 03, 2013, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on October 03, 2013, 06:15 PM:

OK, I have to ask.

When locating/howling, we are talking about the months from say Oct to end of Feb? I rarely, if ever hunt the other months.

With my job, I just can't get out and hunt like I would like, so I have to maximize every day I do get. All tips/tricks are welcomed and greatly appreciated.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 04, 2013, 07:22 AM:

"When locating/howling, we are talking about the months from say Oct to end of Feb? I rarely, if ever hunt the other months."
-------------------------------
Howling works all year around. Works best in spring and summer, with mating season (mid December thru February) coming in second best.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 04, 2013, 07:29 AM:

Leonard,
6mm/284 has land with coyotes behind every bush. I have to wait until he is eating dinner at the casino before I slip in there to call. I walk backwords on my way out so iffen he see's my tracks he will think I just went in there again. I have an old pair of boots that I borrow from his friend Mert. He see's those tracks in the snow and thinks Mert is in there killing his coyotes again.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 04, 2013, 09:58 AM:

I think it's really funny that ol' Rich has taught those Minneesota coyotes his little trick of walking backwards. It's been confusing the hell out of TA for years..... thinking he has a coyote surrounded in a section.

(hope he don't see this!)

Yeah, you got to get up pretty early, if you plan on foolin' with the Cronkster!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 04, 2013, 03:35 PM:

Can tell the diff's of a track going in and back tracking on same track, doubt if many city slickers could..

Wonder if Rich knows its actually a pair of coyotes he has been sneaking after when trailing that lone track.. [Big Grin]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 04, 2013, 06:57 PM:

"Wonder if Rich knows its actually a pair of coyotes he has been sneaking after when trailing that lone track.."
--------------------------------
I never got in to tracking coyote's, I would rather call them.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 04, 2013, 07:11 PM:

I have learned a thing or two tracking cripples at night. Especially lacking snow, particularly on desert hardpan.

A dog is a lot of trouble, but would sure help with wounded coyotes. Would save a lot of "tracking".

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: I know a guy that was tracking a coyote at night, flushed him and threw a knife at him, killing the coyote. This is someone I would tend to believe, for what it's worth.

[ October 04, 2013, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 04, 2013, 07:31 PM:

Rich I like calling also but when you have coyotes that don't like to play the game its just as fun taking the game to them. Hell putting a few traps out can be just as fun also, makes most days like Christmas mourning.. Oh! Can't forget about hunting or trailing with hounds, they are fun to watch and gives the same satisfaction as shooting a coyote with your own re-loads or custom rifle...

I agree Leonard tracking a coyote on hard ground or even sand can be difficult.
Was with Scott one time trying to track a coyote thought to be hit by the shotty from a aerial gunner which took place in one of those S.D. pastures with short grass and packed down cow trails. Last spotting the coyote was headed for a small island of thorn-brush. Scott took one side And I the other and worked our way around it and even tried to crawl into it in some spots but still no coyote. Figured it kept going and went into a drainage.. Chalk up one for the coyote.. [Smile]

Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on October 05, 2013, 04:15 AM:

Rich, problem is there aren't any bushes left, the farmers tore them out and planted corn! Maybe i could buy some bush decoys and set them out. The amount of cover we have lost the last few years is tremendous.

[ October 05, 2013, 04:23 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 05, 2013, 06:43 AM:

6mm284,
Farmers have been destroying wildlife habitat for a very long time. I remember seeing it in the early 1960's. bulldozing historical old buildings, small groves of tree's and etc. Very sad to see.

Timmy,
I have done my share of trapping, but I would never chase coyote's with hounds or pickup trucks. You might just be surprised if you knew what I have done in the outdoors.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 05, 2013, 09:46 AM:

One of the things I liked about Iowa they had cover along most of the fence lines in some parts of the state.
One of the counties I hunt in had 60 vacant wood lots torn down and burned or buried last year.
No big deal for the coyotes as they can adapt but removing this much cover is hard on the coon, wood-ducks, fox.

On the way home from work I did notice that we gained a new game refuge and two walk-in areas (crp)..

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