This is topic Amazing opportunity in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2005, 12:22 PM:
Mike Jaeger, who is a UofU professor in charge of the NWRC research of coyote communcation, especially vocalizations, is conducting research on 600,000 secure acres on a nuclear facility in Idaho. They have identified 9 packs, their territorial boundaries, and collared the alpha males with GPS units that are interrogated every 6 minutes by satelite. Coyote Lo-Jacks. Their goal is to determine if alpha males can be called in for selective removal. Mike invited me to demonstrate my sounds and techniques on the facility. Security clearance took 2 weeks. I'm flying into SLC Thurs. AM and driving to Idaho Falls for three days and three nights of calling while the scientists monitor the coyotes response.. This big grin is frozen on my face. Karma... I will have to be very, very good for the rest of my life to earn this.
If any of you have a scenario in mind that you would like us to investigate, post it here and I will submit ti to Mike.
[ May 31, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 31, 2005, 12:54 PM:
You gonna have time to grab a bite while you're in Salt Lake on Thur.? I'll pay!
- DAA
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2005, 03:27 PM:
Dave, I arrive in SLC at 9:55. It will be after 10:30 by the time I pick up the car. I need to be in Idaho Falls at 3:00 pm. I would sure enjoy a quick lunch with you.
Also, do you know of a source for urines in SLC or any of the cities along the way? I need the mist but the Airlines made me dump it last time. They always give me the microscope treatment. My cameras, batteries, chargers, power inverter, two-way radios, calling belt, etc. set off all manner of bells and sirens.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2005, 03:36 PM:
Rich,
Congratultions, you've earned it.
See? Your exentricities are paying off. Aren't they.
I'll be anxious to hear how the lay people did for the pros. Also, be nice to hear your thoughts on how selectively removing alpha males repeatedly will affect the social dynamic longterm in coyotes. If they can figure out how to do that, that would be a big part of ADC right there.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 31, 2005, 04:01 PM:
Congrats Rich on the incredible opportunity!
You might try Montgomery Fur in Ogden,Utah just north of SLC. You might want to call ahead and make sure they have what you need. www.montgomeryfur.com
Good luck and have fun!
[ May 31, 2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2005, 04:01 PM:
Maybe you have time to FedEx the urine to your destination, before you leave? I'd like to be at that lunch, with a couple of my heros. No shit.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 31, 2005, 05:26 PM:
Rich,
I'm with Leonard, ( almost anyway, I prefer UPS ) But I'd send everything you didn't want the Airlines to screw with, overnight to Dave. Then pick it all up at lunch.
Hell I'd even buy the lobster and steaks to be at a lunch with two hero's like Rich and DAA. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Bomba (Member # 71) on May 31, 2005, 05:49 PM:
Can Bomba go?
Will promise not to stand up and say LOOKY when Bomba see coyote!
Cheif say that
quote:
Coyote with GPS not contagious but have lot to do with moon and sex.
Cheif then go on to say
quote:
Favorite position doggy style. That where man sit up and beg while woman roll over and play dead.
[ May 31, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Bomba ]
Posted by Doggitter (Member # 489) on May 31, 2005, 06:24 PM:
That sounds like a real good thing Rich! Congratulations and I hope everything goes real smooth.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2005, 06:48 PM:
Thank you, Gentlemen. You too Tim.
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on May 31, 2005, 07:42 PM:
Rich,
Did I forget to mention I've got a custom-made Tripp-shaped suitcase with ventilation holes I'll let you borrow for your travels?
It weighs 206 lbs. as of this morning. Hope it doesn't slow you down.
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 31, 2005, 08:56 PM:
Rich,
Is this a "one time thing" or can you go back at a later date?
It would be interesting to know what types of calls were used at different times of the year to have the greatest effect on the Alpha male.
Do you already have some scenarios in mind, or are you just going to play it by ear?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2005, 09:18 PM:
Lungbuster, Mike and I have become friends and enjoy our conversations. I would imagine I will be able to return, if I produce results that interest the scientists. They broadcast recorded playback on a regular basis in their studies of vocalization response. The recordings are of real coyotes, human imitations, human produced prey distress and sirens. They broadcast from a vehicle and state that the coyotes rarely approach closely. I will be the first caller to enter the area and conduct regular calling stands. They want to see how I would attempt to attract the alpha male only, how I would attempt to attract all the males, and how I would attempt to attract as many coyotes as possible, as close as possible on one stand. They broadcast the same vocalizations at max volume at each platback site and really don't understand how to escalate the intensity of an encounter by presenting different vocalizations at different emotional levels and volumes in sequence. We get to see how they approach the various sounds and what they do, where they go after they finally have enough of me and leave and I try to get them to return. Great possibilities.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on May 31, 2005, 10:13 PM:
Interesting project, Rich. It sounds like these guys have bought all the toys, but still haven't figured out how or why they work. Are you being compensated for your contribution?
Obviously, this research must be for the purpose of population control. I'm curious who is funding it. Sounds like Federal bucks have been invested.
If the object of this exercise is to target alpha males for eventual removal, I'm even more curious. Are these "scientists" not aware that terminating an alpha dog has only a temporary effect on territorial "packs". There is always an understudy in the wings waiting for their opportunity to become "top dog". And another one in line behind him.
Hopefully, this research will actually contribute to a greater understanding of the mechanics of coyote vocalizations. More than likely only as a by-product, but I hope Rich will have access to it to share with us.
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 01, 2005, 05:28 AM:
Rich,
Will you be going in blind, or will they be giving you the approximate territorial boundaries?
Do they know of any territorial overlap by alphas males and will they let you know where that occurs?
BTW: How did they determine that they only had alpha males collared?
Dennis
[ June 01, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 01, 2005, 05:40 AM:
Rich, it looks like Lonny and Leonard said what I'd have said on the urines. Montgomery Fur in Ogden would be your best bet to pick it up local, but shipping it ahead would be the surest. Montgomery advertises in T&PC. Be glad to take delivery of it at the office here, if it will help.
Shoot me an email at dave@rmvh.com, and I'll make sure you have my cell #, address and all of that. Looking forward to Thursday!
- DAA
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on June 01, 2005, 06:21 AM:
Rich,
Sounds very interesting & fun. I can't help but think. Even in a perfect World. This testing will offer up unknown info, that will be of use.
But on the other hand. Will be limited to location, time of year, ect, ect & exact behavior of each & every Alpha male called-in.
As I believe each & every coyote has their own "distinct" personality & behavioral traits. Similiar to the domestic dog World.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 01, 2005, 06:43 AM:
Understanding that their methodology to date has been standardized for the purpose of their studies, I got a feeling Rich is going to show them some stuff that even they didn't think was possible. I know I was a non-believer until he showed me and I saw it for myself. Worst case scenario is that about three hours into Rich's little confab with the local coyote population, the researchers will be found shredding and dumping all their data to date because they've seen how irrelevant their methods were to that point. Calling to a truck? Hmmm.
We expect a FULL report upon your return, comrade.
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on June 01, 2005, 06:55 AM:
Do you get to take Mattie? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2005, 10:30 AM:
Hate to break it to you like this, Lance. I have called thousands of coyotes in to a truck.
The trick is to use a remote. As long as the sound is coming from a location 33 yards from the vehicle, I have never had a problem......until I tried calling coyotes in Kansas, that is.
I imagine with an unexploited population, the coyotes would respond, but then again; if the researchers move around and make no effort at concealment, the animals might hang up way out there.
You know, like the frog going deaf when his legs are cut off.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2005, 11:30 AM:
quote:
As I believe each & every coyote has their own "distinct" personality & behavioral traits.
It's not "distinct", it's "instinct" and "predictable" behavioral traits. That is why they always come to the call no matter what state and what season.
I also feel Rich will widen their eyes quite a bit. Watching and studying a dog under a microscope doesn't mean they understand what's going on. I for one am really excited that Rich has made this golden opportunity for himself and cannot think of anyone better to enlighten the teachers.
[ June 01, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 01, 2005, 12:01 PM:
Jay,
I agree. If we were to hold an election today to nominate only one of us to make this trip, I have no doubt that Rich is easily the most qualified.
Leonard,
Not to take away from your body count, but when I speak of coyotes and, in this instance, calling them from a truck, I often make the mistake of speaking of them within the context of the schizo-paranoid coyotes I have where I live. I've hunted enough coyote-rich places now to appreciate just how shitty my local dogs are.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on June 01, 2005, 12:04 PM:
I'm no, "Joe-encyclopedia" Potato, pototo, ect.
My belief; Is "ALL" coyotes have "individual" behaviors/reactions/temperments/personalities, ect, ect. As the odds even including genetics plus "Nature vs. Nurture" combined on any two coyotes.
Would be rare indeed, to have any two(coyotes} act the same "exactly.....All of the time, from the exact same stimulis.
[ June 01, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 01, 2005, 12:08 PM:
Lonny thanks for the info. They have all that I need and will have it boxed and at the front desk for me tomorrow.
Tom, the Feds are partially funding this ongoing research throuigh NWRC and APHIS. Dr. Jaeger and his students have been researching this and other behavioral subjects since 1994 on the Dye Creek Preserve in Ca., at the Logan facility and at Mud Lake in Id. They do have all the "toys" and have published interesting data on discriminate analysis of spectrograms of variuos howls. They intend to record my howls and compare their spectrograms to real howls. Mike knows as much about coyotes as anyone I have ever spoken with however he has never "called" coyotes as we do. I sent him a rough copy of my DVD along with other video and he saw behaviors and responses to certain sounds that switched on a lightbulb.
Some of their deductions concerning alpha male predation I believe is flawed ,but they are aware of the same things that you cited and their primary concern is to target individual coyotes rather than remove all coyotes in the area indiscriminately. I will be permitted to tape everything that we do and they will share all info that results from this.
Dennis all territories are defined and they will give me all the info on all the packs including pack members and status as well as location of core territories and boundaries.
Dennis they captured as many pack members as possible and determined the alpha status from age, appearance, and response to platback relative to the other pack members.
Lance, I know that you were "padding" some but I do expect them to rethink some of the conclusions that they have published in the dissertations that Mike has shared with me. A couple of times I was reminded of Bill Martz' conclusions about coyote behavior that he drew from watching them at his bait station, especially "Coyotes fight for a living." and "Without territory coyotes will die."
Joel, she couldn't get security clearance.
Mike has to complete training as an escort before he can bring me on site. Tight security.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 01, 2005, 12:22 PM:
Rich, I'm really looking forward to a discussion when you get back. Have a great time!
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on June 01, 2005, 01:21 PM:
Thanks Rich, Have a great time! I see that you haven't told the National Weather Service about your plans. Low's around 40 and highs mid to upper 60's. Wind light to around 15 mile per hour. It couldn't get better than that.
Dennis
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on June 01, 2005, 07:26 PM:
Rich. You know my present situation. Thinking of the great experience you are going to have will help me get through it.
Enjoy my friend.
Ronnie
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2005, 07:37 PM:
Hang in there, Ronnie. We're all pulling for ya.
Sure sounds like Rich is in for a fun time, though? Don't it?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on June 01, 2005, 08:11 PM:
Leonard. Rich will be the best deal the government has gotten since the Louisiana purchase.
I am hanging in there. I see the neurosurgeon on Friday. All I have to do now is stay off my four wheeler, don't ride in cars, and try to keep breathing when the muscle spasms hit. The breathing is the easy part. Staying off the Honda is killing me. After being paralyzed from the lower lip down for three hours last week. They scared me enough that I have only gone hog hunting one time since. They said the next time will be permanent.
I am going to hire some one to run this computer after the surgery, So I can keep up with Rich's stories.
Ronnie
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on June 01, 2005, 09:40 PM:
Holy Cow Ronnie!!! Does nothing phase you?!?! You are a brave and wonderful man Senor!!!! I'll be praying for you. (Not a cliche)...I WILL BE and AM PRAYING FOR YOU!!!!
Ronnie's way is all that matters!!!! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on June 01, 2005, 09:42 PM:
Rich,
WAY TOO GO!!!
I too can't wait 'til I hear all. You lucky B******!!!!! You get to meet Dave in person!!!!!
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on June 02, 2005, 05:42 AM:
Danny. People like you are the reason I can keep going. Hell after this surgery you and I will do a smoke dance together. Then they will have something to talk about for many years to come.
Thanks man. Let me know when you need more Gator parts.
Ronnie
Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on June 02, 2005, 06:21 AM:
I look forward to hearing about your adventure Rich! Go dazzle them!
Ronnie... I gotcha covered, my friend!
Crow Woman
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on June 02, 2005, 11:44 AM:
Hope it goes well for you Rich, Since they are wasting Government funding anyway, I am happy that at least someone I know may get some use out of it.
Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on June 02, 2005, 01:46 PM:
Just some advice. Try not to shoot one of those big round things. KaBoom. All this talk about behavior reminds me of Dr. Fred Provenza from USU. There is a lot of behavior on animals with his project but nothing about coyotes. There could be some theries drawn from his research. Check it out.http://www.behave.net/
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