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Author
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Topic: Amazing opportunity
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 31, 2005 12:22 PM
Mike Jaeger, who is a UofU professor in charge of the NWRC research of coyote communcation, especially vocalizations, is conducting research on 600,000 secure acres on a nuclear facility in Idaho. They have identified 9 packs, their territorial boundaries, and collared the alpha males with GPS units that are interrogated every 6 minutes by satelite. Coyote Lo-Jacks. Their goal is to determine if alpha males can be called in for selective removal. Mike invited me to demonstrate my sounds and techniques on the facility. Security clearance took 2 weeks. I'm flying into SLC Thurs. AM and driving to Idaho Falls for three days and three nights of calling while the scientists monitor the coyotes response.. This big grin is frozen on my face. Karma... I will have to be very, very good for the rest of my life to earn this.
If any of you have a scenario in mind that you would like us to investigate, post it here and I will submit ti to Mike.
[ May 31, 2005, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 31, 2005 12:54 PM
You gonna have time to grab a bite while you're in Salt Lake on Thur.? I'll pay!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 31, 2005 03:27 PM
Dave, I arrive in SLC at 9:55. It will be after 10:30 by the time I pick up the car. I need to be in Idaho Falls at 3:00 pm. I would sure enjoy a quick lunch with you.
Also, do you know of a source for urines in SLC or any of the cities along the way? I need the mist but the Airlines made me dump it last time. They always give me the microscope treatment. My cameras, batteries, chargers, power inverter, two-way radios, calling belt, etc. set off all manner of bells and sirens.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 31, 2005 03:36 PM
Rich,
Congratultions, you've earned it.
See? Your exentricities are paying off. Aren't they.
I'll be anxious to hear how the lay people did for the pros. Also, be nice to hear your thoughts on how selectively removing alpha males repeatedly will affect the social dynamic longterm in coyotes. If they can figure out how to do that, that would be a big part of ADC right there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted May 31, 2005 04:01 PM
Congrats Rich on the incredible opportunity!
You might try Montgomery Fur in Ogden,Utah just north of SLC. You might want to call ahead and make sure they have what you need. www.montgomeryfur.com
Good luck and have fun!
[ May 31, 2005, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 31, 2005 04:01 PM
Maybe you have time to FedEx the urine to your destination, before you leave? I'd like to be at that lunch, with a couple of my heros. No shit.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted May 31, 2005 05:26 PM
Rich,
I'm with Leonard, ( almost anyway, I prefer UPS ) But I'd send everything you didn't want the Airlines to screw with, overnight to Dave. Then pick it all up at lunch.
Hell I'd even buy the lobster and steaks to be at a lunch with two hero's like Rich and DAA. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Bomba
Knows what it's all about
Member # 71
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posted May 31, 2005 05:49 PM
Can Bomba go?
Will promise not to stand up and say LOOKY when Bomba see coyote!
Cheif say that
quote:
Coyote with GPS not contagious but have lot to do with moon and sex.
Cheif then go on to say
quote:
Favorite position doggy style. That where man sit up and beg while woman roll over and play dead.
[ May 31, 2005, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Bomba ]
Posts: 40 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Doggitter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 489
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posted May 31, 2005 06:24 PM
That sounds like a real good thing Rich! Congratulations and I hope everything goes real smooth.
Posts: 273 | From: Oregon rain forest | Registered: Dec 2004
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 31, 2005 06:48 PM
Thank you, Gentlemen. You too Tim.
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The Outdoor Tripp
Knows what it's all about
Member # 619
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posted May 31, 2005 07:42 PM
Rich,
Did I forget to mention I've got a custom-made Tripp-shaped suitcase with ventilation holes I'll let you borrow for your travels?
It weighs 206 lbs. as of this morning. Hope it doesn't slow you down.
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Lungbuster
Knows what it's all about
Member # 630
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posted May 31, 2005 08:56 PM
Rich,
Is this a "one time thing" or can you go back at a later date?
It would be interesting to know what types of calls were used at different times of the year to have the greatest effect on the Alpha male.
Do you already have some scenarios in mind, or are you just going to play it by ear?
Posts: 225 | From: Idaho | Registered: Mar 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted May 31, 2005 09:18 PM
Lungbuster, Mike and I have become friends and enjoy our conversations. I would imagine I will be able to return, if I produce results that interest the scientists. They broadcast recorded playback on a regular basis in their studies of vocalization response. The recordings are of real coyotes, human imitations, human produced prey distress and sirens. They broadcast from a vehicle and state that the coyotes rarely approach closely. I will be the first caller to enter the area and conduct regular calling stands. They want to see how I would attempt to attract the alpha male only, how I would attempt to attract all the males, and how I would attempt to attract as many coyotes as possible, as close as possible on one stand. They broadcast the same vocalizations at max volume at each platback site and really don't understand how to escalate the intensity of an encounter by presenting different vocalizations at different emotional levels and volumes in sequence. We get to see how they approach the various sounds and what they do, where they go after they finally have enough of me and leave and I try to get them to return. Great possibilities.
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted May 31, 2005 10:13 PM
Interesting project, Rich. It sounds like these guys have bought all the toys, but still haven't figured out how or why they work. Are you being compensated for your contribution?
Obviously, this research must be for the purpose of population control. I'm curious who is funding it. Sounds like Federal bucks have been invested.
If the object of this exercise is to target alpha males for eventual removal, I'm even more curious. Are these "scientists" not aware that terminating an alpha dog has only a temporary effect on territorial "packs". There is always an understudy in the wings waiting for their opportunity to become "top dog". And another one in line behind him.
Hopefully, this research will actually contribute to a greater understanding of the mechanics of coyote vocalizations. More than likely only as a by-product, but I hope Rich will have access to it to share with us.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted June 01, 2005 05:28 AM
Rich,
Will you be going in blind, or will they be giving you the approximate territorial boundaries?
Do they know of any territorial overlap by alphas males and will they let you know where that occurs?
BTW: How did they determine that they only had alpha males collared?
Dennis
[ June 01, 2005, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted June 01, 2005 05:40 AM
Rich, it looks like Lonny and Leonard said what I'd have said on the urines. Montgomery Fur in Ogden would be your best bet to pick it up local, but shipping it ahead would be the surest. Montgomery advertises in T&PC. Be glad to take delivery of it at the office here, if it will help.
Shoot me an email at dave@rmvh.com, and I'll make sure you have my cell #, address and all of that. Looking forward to Thursday!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted June 01, 2005 06:21 AM
Rich,
Sounds very interesting & fun. I can't help but think. Even in a perfect World. This testing will offer up unknown info, that will be of use.
But on the other hand. Will be limited to location, time of year, ect, ect & exact behavior of each & every Alpha male called-in.
As I believe each & every coyote has their own "distinct" personality & behavioral traits. Similiar to the domestic dog World.
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 01, 2005 06:43 AM
Understanding that their methodology to date has been standardized for the purpose of their studies, I got a feeling Rich is going to show them some stuff that even they didn't think was possible. I know I was a non-believer until he showed me and I saw it for myself. Worst case scenario is that about three hours into Rich's little confab with the local coyote population, the researchers will be found shredding and dumping all their data to date because they've seen how irrelevant their methods were to that point. Calling to a truck? Hmmm.
We expect a FULL report upon your return, comrade.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted June 01, 2005 06:55 AM
Do you get to take Mattie? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 01, 2005 10:30 AM
Hate to break it to you like this, Lance. I have called thousands of coyotes in to a truck.
The trick is to use a remote. As long as the sound is coming from a location 33 yards from the vehicle, I have never had a problem......until I tried calling coyotes in Kansas, that is.
I imagine with an unexploited population, the coyotes would respond, but then again; if the researchers move around and make no effort at concealment, the animals might hang up way out there.
You know, like the frog going deaf when his legs are cut off.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Jay Nistetter
Legalize Weed, Free the Dixie Chicks
Member # 140
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posted June 01, 2005 11:30 AM
quote:
As I believe each & every coyote has their own "distinct" personality & behavioral traits.
It's not "distinct", it's "instinct" and "predictable" behavioral traits. That is why they always come to the call no matter what state and what season.
I also feel Rich will widen their eyes quite a bit. Watching and studying a dog under a microscope doesn't mean they understand what's going on. I for one am really excited that Rich has made this golden opportunity for himself and cannot think of anyone better to enlighten the teachers.
[ June 01, 2005, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Jay Nistetter ]
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Understanding the coyote is not as important as knowing where they are.
I usually let the fur prime up before I leave 'em lay.
Posts: 1006 | From: Arizona | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 01, 2005 12:01 PM
Jay,
I agree. If we were to hold an election today to nominate only one of us to make this trip, I have no doubt that Rich is easily the most qualified.
Leonard,
Not to take away from your body count, but when I speak of coyotes and, in this instance, calling them from a truck, I often make the mistake of speaking of them within the context of the schizo-paranoid coyotes I have where I live. I've hunted enough coyote-rich places now to appreciate just how shitty my local dogs are.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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2dogs
Knows what it's all about
Member # 649
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posted June 01, 2005 12:04 PM
I'm no, "Joe-encyclopedia" Potato, pototo, ect.
My belief; Is "ALL" coyotes have "individual" behaviors/reactions/temperments/personalities, ect, ect. As the odds even including genetics plus "Nature vs. Nurture" combined on any two coyotes.
Would be rare indeed, to have any two(coyotes} act the same "exactly.....All of the time, from the exact same stimulis.
[ June 01, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: 2dogs ]
Posts: 1034 | From: central Iowa | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted June 01, 2005 12:08 PM
Lonny thanks for the info. They have all that I need and will have it boxed and at the front desk for me tomorrow.
Tom, the Feds are partially funding this ongoing research throuigh NWRC and APHIS. Dr. Jaeger and his students have been researching this and other behavioral subjects since 1994 on the Dye Creek Preserve in Ca., at the Logan facility and at Mud Lake in Id. They do have all the "toys" and have published interesting data on discriminate analysis of spectrograms of variuos howls. They intend to record my howls and compare their spectrograms to real howls. Mike knows as much about coyotes as anyone I have ever spoken with however he has never "called" coyotes as we do. I sent him a rough copy of my DVD along with other video and he saw behaviors and responses to certain sounds that switched on a lightbulb.
Some of their deductions concerning alpha male predation I believe is flawed ,but they are aware of the same things that you cited and their primary concern is to target individual coyotes rather than remove all coyotes in the area indiscriminately. I will be permitted to tape everything that we do and they will share all info that results from this.
Dennis all territories are defined and they will give me all the info on all the packs including pack members and status as well as location of core territories and boundaries.
Dennis they captured as many pack members as possible and determined the alpha status from age, appearance, and response to platback relative to the other pack members.
Lance, I know that you were "padding" some but I do expect them to rethink some of the conclusions that they have published in the dissertations that Mike has shared with me. A couple of times I was reminded of Bill Martz' conclusions about coyote behavior that he drew from watching them at his bait station, especially "Coyotes fight for a living." and "Without territory coyotes will die."
Joel, she couldn't get security clearance.
Mike has to complete training as an escort before he can bring me on site. Tight security.
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted June 01, 2005 12:22 PM
Rich, I'm really looking forward to a discussion when you get back. Have a great time!
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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