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Author Topic: Hello, experts? How is 9mm better than 40S&W
Leonard
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Icon 2 posted March 09, 2019 08:39 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm telling ya. So many people that apparently own a 9mm, like V***** have announced to the shooting world that it's "better" than 10mm or 40S&W or while we are at it, maybe even the 45ACP round. I want to know how people can claim, with a straight face that any given handgun chambered in 9mm is actually "better" than anything else?

Is this proclamation due, solely to the fact that you can squeeze a couple more rounds in the magazine? I'm pretty sure this is how most law enforcement types consider best or most effective. From what I have gathered, they actually consider the fact that they have 17 rounds instead of 15. Yes, I know that there will be the once in a lifetime situation, like Northridge, where a couple more rounds will make the difference.

Well, I don't get it? I'm not up on law enforcement theory. Seems like, if I haven't put the bad guy down with the first 3 shots, the next 14, I might as well just close my eyes, and go BANG BANG BANG!

Getting back to the question. I can look at a 9mm and I can look at a 40S&W and it seems plain as the nose on my face. I can load the 40 to the same pressures as the 9mm +P+ and the 40 wins every time.

Is that what they are teaching in cop schools these days? A blizzard of 9mm launched downrange is far superior to a 40 that has two less cartridges in the magazine. Perhaps I'm not being fair? Explain me? Exactly how is the 9mm better?

I have always subscribed to the tactile feel of cartridges. When you reach in a pocket, you naturally grab a 45 over a 9mm. Is this scientific? Works for me. Show me how a 9mm is better, more effective. I just read it this morning, it was on the Internet, it must be true.

Unless you are talking about 17 versus 15, how is the 9mm better?

Convince me!

Good hunting. El Bee

PS Don't argue that the girls shoot it better, please!

[ March 09, 2019, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2019 11:34 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
THREE HOURS AND NOBODY KNOWS?

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Kokopelli
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2019 12:04 PM      Profile for Kokopelli   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
I don't know squat about 9mm.
I do know that common sense would indicate that a .45 would be the caliber of choice in a fight. Most people don't want the carry weight and opt for something like the less effective .380 or 9mm, though.
History tells us that Wild Bill Hickock favored .36 caliber in black powder when larger calibers were available to him. Go figure.
Mayhap the answer is just to pick something that you'll have with you if and when the need arises and learn to shoot it well ?????

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2019 01:24 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, well I think you have that sneaky Pete gadget which hides a Ruger 380ACP, right? You mo betta than my 32ACP.

But, come to think of it, that is the same logic, or argument. Why can't a 380 be just as good as a 9mm? Assuming you handload, opt for performance and suddenly you got a 9mm in a nice compact package.

I think it's the same thing. how can a 9mm outperform a 40, except in one's mind.

I don't know what the performance is, a 380 versus 9mm? Let us say same bullet. What's standard, 124 grain? So, same diameter but it's slower. Maybe 200fps?

These people keep dreaming. You can't make performance by wishing it. A 380 ain't a 9mm. Period. I'm pretty sure.

That fat boy at Turner's still pisses me off. He was grandstanding, jacking the slide on the Glock he was holding at least 4 times, just for the dramatic effect. See, I jacked it 4 times and now I'm sure it's empty and how could I ever shoot myself in the leg? That's the key, be sure it's unloaded. That way, nobody has ever shot themselves in the leg. He's so smart, how'd he get so fat?

Anyway, you don't really want to kill anybody, right? Just scare them, wound them in the arm, something like that? Is a 380 considered lethal? Oh, I guess it COULD BE? Occasionally, in the right hands. Not to be picking on the 380, it's a hell of a lot more lethal than my 32auto. Same difference. It's the fear factor and the misplaced confidence that I have the means to defend myself. But, only if I'm close enough to ask him to dance. Remember, this Seacamp doesn't have ANY sights, front or back.

Does anybody know, can anybody tell me exactly how a 9mm is better than a 40?

Another thing, every single cartridge I have bought, in 40S&W has a truncated bullet, kinda Keith style? The 9mm I have seen they are all almost a pointed FMJ, not at all blunt like a 45ACP. How is that shape going to transfer energy? Right, it won't, will it? These 9mm people are blowing smoke, the fat guy is full of shit. He doesn't know, he read about it on line. When I go pick up my gun, I'm going to look for him; hard to miss? I think he's closer to 400 than 350. A real muffin top! I'll ask him for data, show me the effectiveness of a 9mm over a 40. He sure pissed me off, can you tell?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: hard to figure. in the first place, all the loads (380ACP) on Hodgdons show PSI between 15,000 and 19,000. But loads for 9mm Luger were twice that. Anyway, It is 200/250 fps, in round numbers. And, the 40 is way higher performance. All you have to do is shoot both and you learn that right away. Duh

[ March 09, 2019, 01:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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4949shooter
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Icon 1 posted March 09, 2019 05:52 PM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard, I don't necessarily think the 9mm is better than .40. As a matter of fact, the .40 is my favorite handgun cartridge next to to my beloved 10mm.

The terminal ballistics of the .40 are excellent. The 165 grain Gold Dot has put a lot of bad guys down for the agencies that have used it.

But the trend now is going back to 9mm. Why? One could only surmise that the ammo is more affordable to law enforcement agencies. The 9 is easier to train new recruits on, and makes it easier for them to qualify as well. There is a lot of argument that new bullet technology increases the terminal effectiveness of the 9mm. But don't we think that this same technology is applied to .40 cal / 10mm bullets as well? Of course.

Wait until some of these new agencies experience a few failures to "stop." The trend over the years may very well swing back to the bigger and heavier .40 caliber bullets.

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Paul Melching
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2019 12:38 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Cuz you can chootem sideways and wave your wrist like a gangsta with out dropping da gun !
With my .40 I use two hands !

[ March 10, 2019, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]

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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2019 04:14 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Leonard not pushing 9s cause I'm a 10mm fan but I,or the wife,have a handful of assorted 9s-mostly autos(glocks,Berettas,etc)
They can be AWFULLY nasty with the ammo available nowadays.Pre our last bowhunt in grizz country I tested some ammo for her.The Underwood 'penetrator' type stuff blew nasty holes right through creosoted fence posts-and anything else I shot it at.Have read about them dropping grizz but...who knows???

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2019 08:50 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I have zero experience with a 10mm. I always wondered whatever happened to the Delta Elite many years ago? It disappeared, but I couldn't understand why? It was the next big thing.

Now, of course, everybody is raving about 10mm. Where were they then?

But, I think the 40S&W is a good compromise. Seems to have just enough power to settle a bad guy's hash. I do agree to being able to shoot a 9 better than a 40, if that's the deciding consideration.

Good hunting. El Bee

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4949shooter
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2019 12:42 PM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
DiYi I have tested some of the Under Extreme Penetrator / Defender as well. It's good stuff in my opinion.

Probably will be my go to NJ round when I retire.

[ March 10, 2019, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]

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Az-Hunter
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Icon 1 posted March 10, 2019 09:26 PM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
I must be really under gunned. My daily carry piece when in Az for winters, is a revolver, a S&W M19 2 1/2", I keep it stuffed with 148 grain full wad cutters, with a lumbering velocity of around 800 fps. Funny thing is, I don't feel under gunned, Ive killed every thing from a deer to javelina and jack rabbits with it. Ihave a nice Springfield Armory TRP 1911 in .45, love it, very, very accurate, but it's big and heavy as far as pistols go. The little M19, rides in a high ride OWB holster right behind the point of my hip, never know its there, comfortable all day carry, and my light fleece jacket which is my normal wear hides it just fine. We can open carry in Az, but Ive never been fond of advertising, so my carry is "open" you just can't see it.

Here in Florida, I seldom carry a firearm on my person, if I do, it's a Glock 43, that can easily slide in a pocket, but always have my Glock 17 in the truck. I don't care to debate what's "better" as far as caliber, I do think it's "better" to have a firearm handy, than not to, but as to what one chooses to carry, for christs sake, the options and calibers are endless, fucking pick what you like?

[ March 10, 2019, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted March 11, 2019 01:28 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, Victor. I think I agree with your reasoning. Actually I do carry most of the time but it’s the little Seacamp. Hitler shot himself with 32Auto, BTW.
Anyway, also interesting what you actually carry. I used to carry a Lady Smith 38 Model 36, but one day my wife said she would feel better if she had something while I was away. I was gone hunting every other weekend and so I gave it to her. She took instruction from her brother who is certified, teaches armed guards armored car drivers, etc. Well, when she died, another shocker. My daughter, who never expressed any interest in firearms whatsoever asked for her moms gun. I took her up to the range and showed her as much as I could, I’m hardly any kind of qualified instructor. And off she went. But the irksome part is that she keeps it nice and handy. In a locked box on the top shelf of her closet <sigh>

Also interesting. The new gun I will be picking up in a few days is a Springfield Armory stainless in 45ACP. You know what, I don’t know the exact model # right now, the paperwork is still sitting in my truck and I haven’t looked at it since I left the shop. I guess great minds think alike?

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted March 18, 2019 12:23 PM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
49,yes the EXtreme Penetrator stuff seems scary good.I know I would not feel comfortable in a vehicle,or behind a vehicle door if it was being shot at me.
Posts: 634 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2019 03:43 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Ran into this yesterday.As 4949 and I mentioned earlier-NASTY bullets.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/458-socom-300gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammo

Posts: 634 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2019 03:45 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Oops.If interested click on the video there on the tiny 380.That's video is what I meant to post.
Posts: 634 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2019 06:19 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Went to verify I had the right 380 reference and while there,looked at a couple other videos.
Maybe worth watching what the 10mm Extreme Penetrator did to 'bullet proof' glass.

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2019 03:36 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, thanks. Those are all interesting. ko ko should consider that Lehigh load. But in the comments there is some argument about overpenetration, like L.E. applications. Also, I guess there's no happy medium versus HP. I don't have the answer? Some people stick with FMJ for reliable feeding. Can't argue with that either.

So, is that the answer to the original question? A 9mm bullet that is reliably effective? Maybe? But they are about $3.50 each you you don't want to do much more than verify zero, and practice with something else. I've seen a box of 50 9mm Luger for less than nine bucks. I have to admit, I don't have enough empties to justify reloading them yet, don't even own dies. But, I will. Maybe buy this interesting solid bullet. I didn't see how much they go for, maybe I missed that part?

Good hunting. El Bee

PS do the have these in 45ACP? I normally load a magazine with a Blazer as the first round, then a 200 grain Sierra.

edit: the answer appears to be no? I didn't see 45 bullets or 45ACP ammo?

[ April 16, 2019, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 02:59 AM      Profile for DiYi           Edit/Delete Post 
Found these.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=45-acp-p-200gr-xtreme-penetrator-ammunition

Getting some work done on my truck so no time to check Underwood this AM.

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Paul Melching
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 03:42 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Thanks DiYi interesting stuff !

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 06:43 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, thanks. That original site had nothing on 45. It sure looks cool!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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4949shooter
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 12:45 PM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
Not sure if this was posted here before, but this is an interesting story on the effectiveness of a 9mm pistol with the right ammo on bear (and a lot of luck):

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2016/8/10/ala ska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/

The ammo used is Tim Sundles' Buffalo Bore, with a 147 grain hard cast bullet.

EDIT: Disregard, it had been posted already by AZ-Hunter.

[ April 17, 2019, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 03:56 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
yes, we looked at it. But as far as I am concerned, and I hate to beat the issue to death, BUT. The round, that caliber is so marginal on brown bear that I think it is a disservice to everybody because a certain few will take from it that they can wander in dangerous woods with an inadequate weapon.

Furthermore, and I've said this before, this fishing guide should be very criticized for attempting to protect TWO clients with a puny Nine Millimeter. The fact that he accomplished it by almost emptying his handgun is further proof that all he did was get lucky. I'm very critical and it's not my argument to defend, it's his....and he can't do it with a straight face. Yes, I give him credit for sticking with it, and he had to know the odds were against him with every round. Six, I believe? And they didn't say what it was, I don't think but it looked like an old S&W Model 59, single stack and he might have had one or two left in the gun. Did he have a spare magazine? Who knows?

I agree with the guy that said; "Use enough gun", and he didn't.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ April 17, 2019, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 04:15 PM      Profile for 4949shooter   Email 4949shooter         Edit/Delete Post 
I completely agree concerning using this caliber on large bears Leonard. In the context of this conversation it's relevance is that of shooting human predators and the potential effectiveness of same.

Me? I'd rather stick with .40 S&W, .357 Sig, or my 10mm in a fight. As a matter of fact, I recently told a well known LE contact and author that if I were ever assigned to a unit like the famed NYPD stakeout squad, my weapon / load of choice would be a Glock 20 10mm (15+1 shot load) stoked with Hornady 155 grain XTP @1400 feet per second. But as it is, most police officers and maybe even military and non-LE are better served with a 9mm they can handle. It's better to hit with one or three marginal rounds than miss with a .44 magnum.

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MI VHNTR
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Icon 1 posted April 17, 2019 05:34 PM      Profile for MI VHNTR   Email MI VHNTR         Edit/Delete Post 
I purchased some of the Lehigh Extreme Penetrator loads for my Delta Elite. I carry it when I'm in the woods at camp. There is a video on you tube showing that bullet going through bullet proof glass, so it should work on a bear. Very impressive to see.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted April 18, 2019 04:28 AM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
This was wrote by a guy that goes by DocRocket on 24hourcampfire, it's hard to argue with facts but many do. Doc said quite a bit very well here.

"Look, I've been following the Caliber Wars for 30+ years, and I've even had a small hand to play in one minor skirmish, at my own Sheriff's Office about a decade ago. The issue is that people are looking for a solution to a problem that keeps being mis-stated. Let's use the FBI post-mortem meetings after the 1986 Miami Gunfight as an example.

There were many problems in the 1986 gunfight, not the least of which was the "flying squad" underestimating the fighting capability of the felons; failing to arm themselves with rifles for what they should have known would be a rifle fight; making macho decisions on taking them down based on that underestimation; and then using bad tactics that ended up getting themselves shot all to hell; and a host of less egregious errors in tactics, training, and preparation that would take an entire series of blog articles to elucidate. But these issues were all swept under the rug, and the outcome of the AAR was to blame the debacle on one problem, and one problem only: Winchester Silver Tip 9mm 115 gr ammunition.

That's right. They blamed the ammunition carried by some (and only some!) of the FBI agents at the gunfight. Which is how we got the myth about the 9mm being an inadequate fight stopper that some members of this 24HCF still believe to be true. Which is how we ended up with the 10mm cartridge, as an "improved" auto pistol caliber, which turned out to be a difficult round to work with for most cops, which resulted in the 40 S&W round becoming the New Standard for police ammunition. And by 2016, 30 years after the Miami Firefight, the FBI announced that "improvements in ammunition" made the 9mm as good as the 40 S&W, and guess what... everybody and their dog is going back to 9mm as the issue sidearm caliber for American law enforcement.

The problem was never the 9mm. It was never the ammo, or the caliber. The fatal wound that eventually killed Michael Platt was NOT from Ed Mireles' 38 caliber bullets, nor his Remington 12 gauge buckshot, but from Jerry Dove's 9mm 115 gr Silvertip bullet that blew out Platt's pulmonary artery and resulted in mortal hemorrhaging inside his chest. This is known beyond doubt. (It has been reviewed by forensic medicine specialists ad nauseum. I have spent literally hundreds of hours reviewing the work of the docs ahead of me, and explaining to the docs and police trainers I work with.)

I've mentioned Dr. Gary Roberts' group's database before, which is based on every OIS in California over the past couple-three decades. Their data show overwhelmingly that any round that meets the FBI ballistic qualification criteria performs about as well as any other round in that group. From 9mm/38 Special up to 45 ACP, they all work about the same in general.

Here's the deal: if you put your handgun bullets into the cardiovascular bundle in the center of a man's chest, he will bleed out very quickly and collapse from lack of blood flow to the brain; if you put your handgun bullets into the core of the CNS (the brainstem) he will cease all purposeful movement immediately. If you shoot him ANYWHERE else, he may keep fighting you, even though his wounds may be mortal. PERIOD. This is established fact. Settled science, if you will.

Anything that detracts from this message is bullschitt. Waste of time and effort. If your bullets are too anemic to penetrate through the skull and soft tissues to destroy the base of the brain from any angle, or the cardiovascular bundle from any angle, your bullets are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. If your gun recoils so viciously that you can't place your shots into these small anatomic targets from any angle with accuracy, then your gun & ammo are no good, a waste of time and effort, and may get you killed. Virtually all of the mainstream defense ammunition available on the market today is designed to meet the FBI criteria, which means you don't really have to worry if your ammo is good enough... if you carry a service caliber handgun, and you load it with commercial ammunition, it will get the job done. The question is whether YOU can get the job done.

The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives."

[ April 18, 2019, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posts: 2282 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Moderator-Night Hunting Forum & can't get it up! This matter is in dispute resolution!
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Icon 1 posted April 18, 2019 04:51 AM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
The handgun caliber or bullet you use in this day and age is far less important than most people realize. Being able to place those shots into a very small anatomic area with speed and precision under stress is far more important. Instead of planning how you're going to be able to pay for your next new Wundergun, you should be planning on finding the money to take some good training in handgun combatives."

Yup !

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 3008 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged


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