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Author
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Topic: rifle twist rate question
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted April 16, 2022 03:54 PM
I've heard 3 different theories about how to choose a twist rate for a given caliber. The first theory is the most common, but that may be because all rifle bullets for many decades were made basically the same way with a lead core and a copper jacket. Today, we have solid copper bullets being made by many bullet makers which will be longer than a lead core bullet of the same weight. I also know a former member of this board who said you need to maintain a minimum RPM . So my question is, is it the length of the bullet or is it the weight of the bullet or is it the needed RPM that we should use when selecting a twist rate?
I ask this because I know of one Gunsmith that use to be a member here who raised the question after Commyfornia required non lead bullets. He questioned if the rifles currently owned would have enough twist rate to stabilize the longer berger bullets. I also know another former member who said you need to achieve a minimum RPM. However, when most people discuss twist rate they bullet weight.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 17, 2022 09:10 AM
First of all, the whole bullshit idea about banning lead is a anti crusade, a tool to wound us. Lead is among the most common elements on earth and yes you have to be careful with it, but it's extremely useful. For some yahoo to worry about lead paint causing their child to become an imbecile from chewing on the rails of their crib is probably a concern similar to looking both ways before crossing the street. But you don't need to ban friggin' cars so that your child can cross the street without being sure it is safe to do so.
They have banned very useful lead paint for marine use because it's toxic to marine life, BARNACLES! Lead paint was the most effective treatment so now you have dry dock and scraping the hull much more frequently and of course, it's expensive, but at least we are making the ocean a little less safe for marine life and now we need to get rid of plastic straws. Environmentalists are killing us to save the planet that doesn't need to be saved, with just a little responsibility, but Greta screams: How dare you! and intelligent people go to great lengths to save the earth....which is nice but many of our ill-conceived efforts are a waste of time and resources.
Such as lead used in ammunition. The whole idea is bullshit. Condors do not pick through a dead deer carcass looking for all the lead fragments. Almost all creatures know instinctively what is edible and what isn't. Condors have been known to drink antifreeze at a highway turnout from boiling over in a radiator. These birds have lost the evolutionary lottery a long time ago but humans are making heroic efforts to restore them by first banning lead ammunition in the Sespi Reserve and when that became entrenched without much notice the cocksuckers somehow managed to convince lawmakers that the entire state needs to be protected from lead, after 2 or 3 hundred years of lead shot lying around and not bothering anybody, but for the crusaders, it's a matter of life or death.
Never mind that eagles kill many more condors than die from ingesting lead fragments. And there is a movement afoot to redesign and replace all electric transmission lines because the condors wingspan is about ten feet and they are able to electrocute themselves unless humans do something about it. All this to make sure a stupid bird survives by extraordinary means. It's humans fighting nature. I'm not saying we should stand around and let the bison become extinct. Left alone, bison are able to survive. Left alone, condors will become extinct without extraordinary human efforts.
So, monolithic copper bullets do not seal the bore properly....so I have been told? When dealing with ballistic considerations, mass or molecular weight causes a ballistic projectile to fly "more better" than perhaps using something like wood. Yes, we can carry this to extreme lengths and use depleted uranium like they use with the gatling gun on the A10 Warthog. But, take it on faith; a heavier projectile sustains the trajectory better than a lighter projectile. This is just science, and environmental cocksuckers have forced us to dance to their tune, AGAIN!
We could scatter lead core bullets around the countryside for another 2 or 300 years without noticeable effect. And, hunters do not shoot a deer twenty times, as Joe Biden claims and they do not wear kevlar vests and they do not leave these deer laying around in plain sight so that condors can search for all that delicious lead! Never mind that the killing bullet stands a good chance of passing completely through the body and burying in the dirt or soil, never to be seen again except by eager folks with a metal detector.
What the hell was the question, and how many former members are we talking about? Well, the length of the solid copper bullet is dictated because the only way to get to 180 grains is to make it longer if it must be a constant .308" bore size. I think it is the length of the projectile that requires the faster twist in order to stabilize it in flight. This is why the Long Rangers need a faster twist for a longer bullet regardless of what it's made of.
The military wants accurate and effective and lethal fire out to some theoretical distance and they have given up on the.224" bore size for the 6.8mm, as I understand it? I don't "think" the Army has given any thought to the foolish idea of using monolithic solid copper projectiles, at least until some fucking Liberal takes over intelligent decision making. But I could be wrong? So, the operating idea is to forget inferior bullet material and set their specifications up for cheap and efficient lead with gliding metal jackets, and ignore the environmental whacko assholes.
So far as I know, no human has died by rolling around behind the backstop at the rifle range and somehow getting contaminated by this lethal and dangerous substance known as LEAD. I don't even think, historically, there has been a single individual severely impaired by rolling around in the bullet contaminated "dirt" which is the technical term. So, ever notice the effort and extent to make sure this dangerous substance never kills a condor or a human? This is as they say, a solution looking for a problem and just as we accept on faith that GLOBAL WARMING is a dire threat to our existence, and when the weakness of that threat becomes obvious, we change the game to include "Climate Change" and various weather conditions becomes a serious concern.
People! We are being played for suckers! Wake the fuck up!
So, briefly, (ha ha) I really don't know the answer to the question, but bear in mind the law of diminishing returns. The more velocity, the shorter the barrel life. The faster the twist rate to stabilize extra long projectiles, the shorter the barrel life. That's all I got.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted April 17, 2022 09:32 AM
I'm with you on this lefties banning lead core rifle bullets. I have tried barnes several times with lousy results IMHO.
Regarding my question, the best rifleman I know told me it is lenght too.
A friend of mine wanted to know what twist rate was best for his application. Using google, I answered his question from a reponse on Benchrest.com. The source used bullet weight, not length. I would think bench rest shooters would use the correct terms.
Thanks
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted April 17, 2022 10:28 AM
The two members I made reference to are DAA and Dan Carey.
BTW I tried to email you but this came back:
Address not found
Your message wasn't delivered to webmaster@huntmastersbbs.com because the address couldn't be found, or is unable to receive mail.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 17, 2022 10:41 AM
Thanks, I don't know what's going on with that? Used to work? But if you looked at my profile, my email address is shown.
Dan Carey is a member, Dave is technically a member but blocked from posting messages for valid reasons, such as we used to say in the military that you don't shit in your own mess kit. In other words, he could have voiced his opinions via email rather than public embarrassing and needless bullshit. I think Carey moved to Tennessee and why is it that so many people seen interested in Tennessee these days? Him and I are on good terms, so far as I know? Dave? I do not know what his problem is but I'm disappointed in his attitude. But, shit happens.
Good hunting. El Bee
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile;u=00000002
[ April 17, 2022, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 18, 2022 08:04 AM
Twist rate can go both ways, kind of like Koko when he cross dresses. Normally you want a twist rate that is spot on for bullet weight you plan to use and then you can also shoot bullets little lighter or heavier from your main goal. In 22cal. rifles I like to use a 52 gr. bullet so have them set up twist rate wise to shoot them. Years back Hornady came out with a 52 gr. A-max bullet which is 52 gr. just like the others, thing is it was longer in length and required a faster twist to stabilize it. Had to go up to next twist rate to get what I wanted out of it or go to a bigger case and put more powder behind it. I got a 22 Valkrie few years back I think twist is 1-6 or 1-7 but not 100%, this cartridge was meant for shooting heavy VLD bullets out to 10000 yards. So far I've shot 60 gr. all way up to 100 gr. start to loose accuracy at 90 gr. with the twist I have. Twist not real important if you shooting less than say 500 yards but do want to be close.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 18, 2022 08:12 AM
Say WHAT ????? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
That was supposed to be our little secret, you silly savage.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 18, 2022 08:14 AM
Now a 17 cal. can be little fussier when it comes to twist rate, bullet weight and length. I have a 17 rem switch barrel with one barrel having 1-6 twist for shooting a 37 gr. VLD and 1-9 for shooting 30's. I can also shoot the 30's in 1-6 twist but you need to watch the speed or the bullet will come apart. The 1-9 twist will not stabilize the 37 gr. bullets though. So it also boils down that it don't hurt to have a little extra twist just don't want to be short.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 18, 2022 10:06 AM
But, as I mentioned, the faster twist comes at a cost of degraded barrel life. It's not a case of "More is better" Over-stabilization causes excessive RPM which can literally blow up a bullet in transit. I've had it happen, just a puff of gray smoke and no hole in the paper. Accuracy is a nebulous thing, depending on lots of stuff, including consistency. Consistency in seating bullets it the same depth, powder charge, watching if the leaves on the trees have turned over and thereby indicating increased cross wind; ambient temperature may play a minor factor unless it's below freezing, or you leave your cartridges in the sun which warms them up. It's all inter related, and that's before you consider the human factor. And it's true that some people are better shots than others....lets' just say attention to detail. My partner always seemed to have slightly better barrels than me but I'm anal about details, so it evened out. I trusted him to make the shot and if he failed, I probably would have too. But neither of us missed much. When it comes to coyotes, you cannot afford to miss any! Literally "raised" on contests, we always took it very seriously. You cannot drive 500 miles and miss a coyote, it's sickening to even think about it.
I hunted with a man for a while. Pleasant type, kind of nerdy and very good shooting from a bench in competition. I'm not sure if it was his eyes or he just choked at live animals, but you couldn't trust him. He contributed in other ways.
Some people have the knowledge to contribute to shooting skills and some manage unconsciously, but for most of us, the mechanics are one thing, and the theoretical aspect is something else. Knowledge seldom hurts you. As I point out frequently, I have a "Latent" skill with a bow. Never pursued, never used any but the most basic gear, but I think I could do it, if I had the urge. That's kind of like Pat is with a rifle; he just falls into success without even trying.
To sum it up, there are certain basics of physics. JUST AS I HAVE NEVER QUITE UNDERSTOOD WHY (oops, cap lock) some people are better at some things than others. One of these days, although I know that Vic is an expert with several handgun disciplines, I've never seen him do it. He is also very good with a rifle and I have seen him do it. Once, I missed a running shot at about 150 yards and he made that shot at twice the distance, and was pretty casual about it. And he was the one that walked out on retrieval. edit: I think he had more of a straight away shot?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 18, 2022, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Grizz
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4626
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posted July 13, 2022 07:13 PM
I choose to ignore the BS lead ammo ban for yote hunting when and if I get caught with lead, I'll pay the fine. I can't remember the last time I've been checked by a so called warden whilst hunting in CA.
About every couple of years I'll run into one whilst fishing the Owens Valley Eastern Sierras.
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I don't hunt with the pack.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 14, 2022 12:50 PM
I more or less agree with your policy! The lead ban has just gotten out of hand and the Anti's are using it as a friggin' weapon!
Lead is one of the most common minerals in the world and stray lead is all over since European contact, Spanish in what was it, the 1500's? They had guns.
Anybody who has tried a metal detector soon finds out how abundant, in the form or shot and bullets it is. Maybe just as common as nails, but nails decompose and lead is inert. But anti's have successfully beat us over the head on this issue and we keep losing. It's a fucking bogus issue! Yeah, you shouldn't eat it but it's damn near harmless! You tell me the last time someone was poisoned by lead in this country?
They talk a good game but gilding metal/lead bullets has NOT BEEN IMPROVED UPON! And yet, it is spreading like wildfire. And we don't fight back, spineless idiots! They should have to scientifically PROVE the harmful effects of lead bullets instead of the obvious "well, duh, it's poisonous! IT'S ALSO SO FUCKING WHAT?
When benchrest start setting records with monolithic solids, I might listen....nah, I'm kidding! FUCK 'EM! (that will never happen) and if they are forced to comply, there will be two categories. 1) actual record. &2) monolithic solid records. (not as good)
Good hunting. El Bee
PS Grizz, you say , ok I'll just pay the fine but I can see firearm confiscation right along with it to teach Scofflaws, (like you and me) a lesson!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Grizz
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4626
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posted July 14, 2022 07:30 PM
I hunt mainly Nevada these days anyway. The lead insanity has yet to spread there as far as I know and eventually we plan on moving there. Fuck em, screw em...
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I don't hunt with the pack.
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Grizz
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4626
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posted July 14, 2022 07:44 PM
In fact I'm thinking about not even bothering with a CA hunting License this year. I'd rather pay the price for a non resident Nevada License than give it to CA. They don't fuck with you in Nevada. At least not yet.
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I don't hunt with the pack.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 15, 2022 03:57 AM
The last time that I hunted Nev. (been a while) no license was even required for coyote or jackrabbit.
Has that changed ????? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Grizz
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4626
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posted July 15, 2022 07:07 AM
Good question... I always thought as long as you're Licensed from the state you're from no nonresident License needed in Nevada for coyotes. If you're not Licensed from your home state then I thought you would needs a nonresident License to hunt at all in Nevada.
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I don't hunt with the pack.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 15, 2022 08:48 AM
Yeah, and unless you are poking around in a mule deer or pronghorn unit, you won't see any game wardens up there.
In fact, I only remember one time, we were sleeping in the rig and had a knock on the back door. Nosey game warden and deer had just closed, we had been seeing gut piles and deer legs all over the place. He never asked for a license when we told him what we were doing. And that's WAY north.
There was a time when we were on a side road that went parallel to the highway and making a stand. We saw headlights coming from at least 20 miles away so we just shut down and waited for him, whoever it was? to pass.
But he didn't. he slowed down, went past us and turned around and came back. I'll say this much for him, he had us pegged pretty good and he still passed us a couple more times and we didn't help him out whatsoever, but eventually he put his spotlight on us. He was Highway Patrol and a coyote hunter and was just curious as to what we were doing....and how we were doing.
But, I've been in that situation 500 times and waited and watched the vehicle just drive on by, but not this guy
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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