|
Author
|
Topic: illuminated reticles, expense and practicality
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 16, 2016 09:11 AM
I don't know where to post this? Could be in "Predator Hunting" or "Optics" or that overused catch all, Member Forum?
But, anyway, to get to the point because I would like as much input as possible.
Here's the scenario. I was making a stand late one afternoon and had run out of territory so I stayed there longer than normal, if only because it was getting too dark to see.
So, I flipped on the illuminated reticle, ahead of time, just in case. Actually I had only used it one other time, and it didn't work so good that time either.
So, I had seen some movement out there, right in front of me, but (oh) maybe 300, or so and not a good look, not moving fast and the brush was tight and heavy.
I kept looking, concentrating on the quadrant right in front of me as I had elevation on the side of a hill. By now, it was too dark to see, but having already seen movement, but not anything close to part of an animal, just flash. And, that's not the right word either? Under the poor light conditions, it wasn't "flash" as in (you know) light.
So, I heard something way off to the side and downwind, but up at my level. Somehow he had circled and was sniffing me, but I could hardly make him out. But, I had already turned on my trusty illuminated reticle so, No problemo.
And, I had the intensity cranked almost all the way down but when I got the gun up and tried to center the scope on the dark blob, I was blinded! Couldn't see a damned thing because my night vision had kicked in a long time before.
Well, he left, but I think if I had not had the reticle lit, I might have had enough "light gathering" to (more or less) center the crosshairs, even if I could hardly see them against the body.
Here's my question: What the hell am I supposed to do in a hunting application under the famous "low light" conditions that we sometimes find ourselves? Right now, since this is the second time I have had this happen, is this expensive feature worth a shit?
I'd love to have any opinion you may have, whether you have used one or not. I can tell you one thing, it does work (to a certain extent) when night hunting with a spotlight. In that case, I can see the animal and the crosshairs just fine.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
|
posted May 16, 2016 09:45 AM
I have had several scopes with lighted reticles both very expensive and Chinese crap I have found no practical application. If you have a good light gathering scope they defeat the purpose. Nice conversation piece , hey look what my new toy does and in two colors. Edit to add I do not night hunt so I have no experience there.
[ May 16, 2016, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
--------------------
Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 16, 2016 12:50 PM
Yes, when you have the application it was designed for, Army guys picking off the enemy with some starlight for background and you don't have a starlight scope, sure, it helps to have illuminated reticle so you can put the crosshairs between their eyes.
For hunting, I am still looking for a valid application.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
trapper2
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3651
|
posted May 17, 2016 03:54 AM
i got one in a mark 4, you can make it dim or bright, only time I have found it useful is shooting beaver or hogs at night when your cross hairs just fad away against dark objects
[ May 17, 2016, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: trapper2 ]
--------------------
nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong
Posts: 248 | From: okla | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 17, 2016 05:05 AM
Yeah, I agree with that. And, that situation is very different from calling predators.
For that matter, it's similar to changing your turrets for range, if you have the time? I think I have 11 brightness setting on the one in question and the idea of fiddling with getting it right while I have an animal coming in, just doesn't work for me.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ May 17, 2016, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted May 17, 2016 05:13 AM
Ryan touched upon a key element to an illuminated reticle, the ability to adjust the brightness of the reticle to suit present conditions...
Seems like scope manufacturers have gotten better at making lit reticles with a more 'user friendly' rheostat that covers a wide range of low light conditions. Over-powering the field of view with too much reticle brightness is not conducive to hitting your target!
I hunt at night a bit, and use only as much reticle illumination to barely make it visible against a dark background. Any brighter than that, is counterproductive...
Just like dimming the dashboard lights down while night driving, you don't want excess brightness drowning out your eye's ability to correct for night vision!
One more thing. A lit reticle can & will act as an aid to making a thin reticle more usable in certain conditions. Without illumination, some reticles can become woefully inadequate at standing out against various backgrounds/targets. But with a bit of "lit", you re-gain that much needed contrast & the ability make a good shot is restored...
[ May 17, 2016, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 17, 2016 05:19 AM
Gotta follow along here: in my case, I had decided it was getting too dark to see crosshairs and turned it on. Then, I had an animal, and trying to get the scope on him, I screwed the pooch by blinding myself, fumbled around and turned it off. How is that an advantage in a fluid, dynamic situation?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted May 17, 2016 05:38 AM
In that case, its not.
Must ask, was the lit reticle rheostat adjustable, or simple ON/OFF?
If the scope was rheostat adjustable & the lowest setting still caused washout at dusk, then its adjustability range waaaaay too high to be usable.
If it's simple ON/OFF, then you just realized the major shortcoming of that system...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted May 17, 2016 05:59 AM
I have a couple NF with illuminated reticles, but haven't ever actually used the feature.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 17, 2016 07:47 AM
No Fred. I already explained it has eleven positions and the one I selected at random was 2, which, at the time might have been appropriate? 15/20 minutes later, It wasn't "dusk" I could hardly see past my boots, pitch dark. So, had I thought of it, maybe I should have gone back and fiddled with the absolute lowest number. It's a simple on/off as far as turning it on and preselecting a number, and that's what we are talking about is possible, "major shortcomings of that, (or any typical) system."
The point is, and I will assume the authority on night hunting, for this group; that lighted crosshairs offer precious little advantage, and in the two situations when I did attempt to use the device, it did me no good. What the hell do you take me for, a babbling idiot? I have hunted coyotes at night for fifty fucking years, I think I know when something is not an advantage. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
In other words; folks, if you think a lighted reticle is an advantage for hunting coyotes at night, you may be disappointed.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted May 17, 2016 08:02 AM
Do I need fifty fucking years of experience to suggest it may have helped if you turned the illumination down to "1"?
Or, to reiterate that, whatever make/model scope you were using did, in fact, have an illumination range that started 'too bright' to begin with?
Some scopes now are listed as "NV compatible". Meaning that, on the lowest rheostat setting, reticle illumination is minimal enough to be used with uber-sensitive NV equipment. IE, that brightness setting is barely recognizable to the naked eye...
Given that fact, would you at least 'step off' the night vision high horse for a sec, and admit that the scope you were using could simply have been "too bright" @ min. illum???
The fact that some scopes' reticle illumination is inadequate & not beneficial was stated in my initial post. Based on your negative experience, that seems to be the case.
What make/model scope was it?
Have you ever shot thru a "NV compatible" illuminated scope during your 50+ years of expertise? Doesn't seem as though you have, or you'd not be biting my head off for suggesting something contrary to your present beliefs/experience?
Complain away, just trying to add some info that may be pertinent.
I'll tell ya this, a scope with "NV compatible" illumination WILL NOT cause the negative 'brightness washout' experience you described...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 17, 2016 08:18 AM
Great, we agree that illuminated reticles are useless for coyote hunting! Glad we got that settled.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
|
posted May 17, 2016 04:32 PM
damn, you two got me laughing now
--------------------
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 18, 2016 04:54 AM
Fred, it's a new model from Chinese Tactical, with warranty. Very popular. Picked it up on Ebay for two C notes and change.
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted May 18, 2016 01:06 PM
The only time I use an illuminated reticle is during daylight with a low powered scope. Sighted like a red dot with a daylight visible reticle makes em worth the money.
At night, I've killed plenty enough with a regular duplex. The tactical guys don't always have it down.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
|
posted May 18, 2016 07:34 PM
Very early in my varmint hunting career I realized I was loosing animals because of black crosshairs.
The black crosshais (Leopold scopes)could not be seen under an amber or red light in some situations. Putting the cross hairs on the fur would often cause the cross hairs to disappear. This was back in 1987 or thereabouts.
So one day I see a new scope (one of the first back in 1987) advertising an illuminated reticle. The scope was $850 dollars back then. God almighy it was expensive.
OK, so I sacrifice and buy it. I was a Trijicon 3X9X56.
The scope had a selection of Amber, Red, and Green tritium elements each of which would provide a diffrent brightness.
In actual practice, low light levels on the crosshairs were most effective at night. Too bright a reticle would wash out everything. After much experimentation the amber reticle provided the lowest light level and contrast. I found myself selecting amber on the scope for all situations because it gave the lowest light levels and would not wash out the scope in brightnes.
The end result learned after many hunts was best effectiveness was achieved with a light contrast between the crosshairs and the target. The whole idea was to be able to see the crosshairs against the target i.e. the crosshairs needed to be low in light level or the light level would wash out the target in a high intensity glow. I found this to be the case with Nightforce scopes at even the lowest light intensity setting i.e. I could not adjust them low enough to avoid washout with even the lowest light level settings. This was back when Nightforce first came out with their scopes and someone in the club got a free sample scope for testing (Granville?). Looking thru the scope my first reaction was to turn the light level down to minimum only to see it was still too bright.....something you might expect from someone who never used an illuminated reticle at night.
I chose not to use the Nightforce scope because their lowest light setting was way to bright for night hunting. It was obvious to me the designers had no clue about hunting at night.
It is obvious, to me, that all you need is a slight "contrast" between crosshairs and target.
[ May 18, 2016, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
--------------------
"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted May 19, 2016 04:16 AM
I've been thru more than a few different NXS model Nighforce scopes. The 2.5-10x "compacts" had an external rheostat to control reticle intensity. The lowest brightness setting on the original compact NXS scopes were dim enough to be usable...
The original 3.5-15x and 5.5-22x NXS models only had ON/OFF capability, operated by pulling out on the left side (parallax adjustment)turret. The rheostat was under the battery, which was located inside the left side turret. That meant field adjusting reticle brightness ain't happenin'. YOu pretty much had to adjust it where you'd need it most, and make due...
Pic of a 3.5-15x NXS, MLR reticle with illum ON, last stand of the day. Without turning the illum ON, that fine MLR reticle would become lost against dark brush/sticks/bramble...
The illum. on my 3-15x Premier is set very well for low/no light & NV. On the lowest setting, the center + glowing red is barely visible in the dark. On a cloudy day in full light, its barely visible on max. illum...
As a blanket statement, I don't think that lit reticles are always a benefit. But when they're done right, I like 'em and will use it when it'll help. In the case of those original NXS scopes, the illumination was a welcomed crutch to help maintain the usability of those thin azz reticles. A more bold reticle would not have needed the aid of illum to stand out...
Have used plain ol' x-hairs at night, with only a handheld flashlight, and had no problem shooting. One thing I would say is, use an etched reticle, not a wire one! Seems like a wire reticle catches & reflects light in the dark, sorta makes it look like its flickering a coppery color. That don't happen with an etched reticle...
Newer scopes are also building rheostats more user friendly. Instead of an incremental intensity adjustment, they are putting an "OFF" mode in between settings. IE, each brightness level has an "OFF" switch in between, so you can keep your illum. where it'll help, not hinder...
I zoomed in a pic from a prior thread/post to illustrate. Note that the illum is set to a "0", in between the intensity settings...
Makes it quick & easy to get the right amount of illum. without fucking up the apple cart...
P.S.
Apologies to Leonard, from the other thread. I was just being a dick & fishin' for a cheap laugh.
Got tons of respect for Leonard, didn't mean anything more than that!
[ May 19, 2016, 04:20 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 19, 2016 05:11 AM
Good post, Fred.
Me personally, I have not dealt with enough lighted reticles to appreciate the various types available, I have two, both made by US Optics. I don't think I have much application, but who knows?
However, most of my scopes (besides those two) are Leupolds and they have wire crosshair. And, I have hunted at night with several of them. I don't recall the wire being difficult to pick up with spotlight illuminating the target?
In fact, I think that's the point I was trying to make. Hunting at night, as developed here in Southern California always involves a light man and a shooter, and if we needed an illuminated reticle to see for shot placement, we would have had them long ago. But, never seemed to be a problem?
So, I don't know if these pricey reticles will prove useful in a normal hunting application or not. Right now, I think "light gathering objectives" and anti reflective coatings will prove more useful, and they ain't cheap either. As I have mentioned before, the best night scope I own is a Kahles 3X12X56 and it's by no means new, and developed for shooting Boar at night from elevated little outhouses, and for that, they excel.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: can't explain Frank's difficulty, as cited above but maybe he wasn't using the best Leupold scopes available, at the time? What is beyond doubt, is that he has hunted the same way as all SoCal guys, so he does know a couple things about night hunting. edit: or, possibly, Frank's eyes are not the best?
[ May 19, 2016, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted May 19, 2016 07:06 AM
Searched around & found a pic of a wire reticle that shows the kinda 'coppery' effect I was trying to explain...
See how the reticle appears bronze/coppery colored, and not black?
Dunno, just noticed that back in the day with both Leupys and Bushy Elites I've owned. As shown by the reference photo above , its very apparent in the day, and was also noticable at night. The fact that it was so evident to my eyes might be a factor of how few lumens I'm gettin' by with?
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 19, 2016 07:21 AM
Yes, I've seen that same thing, but I am not sure of the reasons other than light entering the ocular end of the scope?
One of the important things a "light man" needs to do is get the spotlight out in front of the scope, and yet, as close to the scope as possible. Even mild angles makes it terrible for picking up eye reflections.
That's it, sounds basic, and it is. get the spotlight in front of the eyepiece and as close in line as possible. Some people don't get it? But it's extremely important.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
|
posted May 19, 2016 03:59 PM
Leonard, you make a good point. Hunting under the light I would ask for "burn em" with an amber burn light. Lightning them up with a white light would sometime cause the animal to blink or stop looking. So I hunted with the same light level we used for scanning and would only call out "burn em" when needed. With the amber reticle I could always make out the crosshairs and put the shot where I wanted. My light was a flip light where we scanned with red and if needed it would flip to amber. I liked to do head shots and this was possible with the red scan and amber burn in most situations
--------------------
"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
|
posted May 20, 2016 03:12 AM
I need to make a correction. What we used was a red/amber light on a rheostat. Pulling the trigger on the light would bring the red lens into play. So we scanned with the amber and then squeaked them in on the red light. We used the red light during the shot so the amber crosshairs gave good contrast in this scenario. It might also be good to know we always hunted on a new moon i.e. the darkest of nights. It is in this situation the Trijicon really worked out well.
--------------------
"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 20, 2016 04:59 AM
I was going to add something here, BUT. No reason to tell the whole world. Let them figure it out themselves. What's come over me lately?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted May 22, 2016 03:40 PM
Could you whisper it? Id like to know?
Mark
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 23, 2016 06:58 AM
Yeah, I could but why?
I have been pondering writing a book for more than 20 years. It would mostly involve the finer points of hunting at night, and believe me, this is a subject that could use some light shed on half baked concepts.
You know, perhaps Africa is the last place where these things could prove more useful?
I have wondered why so few daylight hunters get interested in night hunting? It ain't easy, that's for sure! And, it ain't dull, that's for sure! But, a lot of folks seem to think hunting at night has no interest?
I think it's because of ignorant laws and vast misconceptions. The average hardhead equates hunting predators at night with the temptation to poach game animals. In all the years I have associated with night hunters, I can think of only one person that had questionable ethics about poaching game animals while using predator hunting techniques and specialized gear. Terry P. is the name, and he was a scary son of a bitch!
I love night hunting. It's in my blood. <shrug>
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
