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Author
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Topic: We should talk about this "SWATTING' stuff
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 30, 2019 03:59 AM
Here's this guy that apparently has a habit of calling police as a tactic when arguing with other gamers.
But, ultimately, I have to blame the cops. The policies in place where they shoot somebody for that tired old excuse; "REACHING FOR HIS WAISTBAND."
Especially innocent people cannot grasp what is suddenly happening and don't understand a nervous cop with an itchy trigger finger. There has to be more, they have to actually SEE a gun. If that means a cop in potential danger, well, the fucker has lots of body armor. I have to blame the cop and of course, they will protect his stupid ass, nobody will ever know who did something stupid and uncalled for.
Read about it here:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/2-suicides-directly-related-to-deadly-swatting-ho ax-victims-family-says
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 30, 2019, 04:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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Don't piss me off!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 30, 2019 04:08 AM
Tell me again why this is the cops fault? I really don't get it . I was not there did not see what went on and have no first hand knowledge of the events. The article said little.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 30, 2019 04:45 AM
We would have to look at the details of the shooting, which are not in the article, to place blame on the officer. Or not..
[ March 30, 2019, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 30, 2019 08:31 AM
Just for openers, the guy stepped out on his porch to see what was going on. Cops already had guns drawn and shot a completely innocent man. I don't even see where the question comes from; "tell me why this is the cop's fault?"
I would guess that police are fed wrong information every day and that's no reason to have pistols drawn, based on a crank call from somebody a thousand miles away.
Just that much, police shoot citizen on his front porch and we need details to decide on blame. This is just me, but I think in any situation where a cop shoots a citizen, the first reaction should be; okay police officer, you had better have a damned good excuse.
I guess I need to find the originating article because this one is mainly about subsequent suicides and about the defendant that perpetrated the hoax in the first place. BRB
(here it is)
EDIT: Okay this is a pretty good description of what happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Wichita_swatting
The thing that strikes me is that I never heard of Swatting? But, you would sure as hell think every damned SWAT department in the USA would be aware of this bullshit. And, you would think that they would use an abundance of caution, and possibly not accept a 911 call at face value.
This was a dispute over a buck and a half bet on a stupid online game involving three men in 3 different states and none of them knew the victim. This is so screwed up, it's pathetic, but again, you guys know how I feel about police shootings. These things shouldn't go down on the basis of a call from a public library in Los Angeles, and the victim is about as innocent as is possible, is confused and certainly doesn't understand what he's up against.
So, is there a basis for a major reevaluation of police procedures? I sure as hell think so. This is beside the question of the guy across the street zeroed in. What are they actually, what information are they making life and death decisions? Something ain't right, beyond a shrug and an excuse blaming the victim for reaching, for something or other? Personally, I hope this police department is sued for everything they own and every police department in the country is put on notice not to run off half cocked and surround a house based on a hoax phone call, ever again!
[ March 30, 2019, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 30, 2019 11:30 AM
There are two parts to this story.
1. Some "individual" creates a swatting incident, where people have been shot and killed in the house, with others being held hostage.
2. Responding police officers reacting to what they thought was a murder / hostage scene.
The courts are treating the swatting individual as the cause of Mr. Finch's death. I think they are correct in doing so, at least partly.
The police were called to the residence to what they thought was a heinous crime scene. Having been in these types of situations, I know how the adrenaline gets pumping. Did the officer who fired the weapon overreact? Maybe. Should he have fired? In hindsight definitely not.
This is extremely tragic. We don't know what the officer saw and believed to be happening that day. It's unfortunate that someone put the police and the victim in that situation.
I am sorry for the innocent man who was shot and killed by the police officer. I am sure the officer would take that bullet back if he could.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 30, 2019 03:04 PM
That's as good a description as I could come up with. WE have an idea what caused it, and if this man serves 20 years, I would hope he suffers long and hard. There must be a deterrent when people do stuff like this. I would include a good beating before they lock him up, maybe a few broken bones? Serving his time, three squares a day, all the video games he can handle, but not a day sooner.
As you say, TWO PARTS to the story and this is where there must be some reflection and some policy changes. Me personally, I vigorously reject the police officer attitude on the scene who is convinced his life is in mortal danger and psyched out from an imagined weapon. It can be a thankless job, keeping the peace, but these people volunteered and they are as protected as much as is humanly possible. That's the officers in the yard, none of whom felt threatened enough to shoot the man. no, it was another sharpshooter 127 feet away that, (seems to me) didn't follow established procedure, he literally jumped the gun , from his hideout across the street. First he said he saw a gun then he said he thought the guy might be reaching for a weapon, and he had to fire to protect his other SWAT Team members. Pretty cool shot for a rattled and hyped up officer; right through the heart!
Sorry, but I'm not sympathetic. Sure, at this point in time, he most likely wishes he had not acted so hastily. I'm sure that family appreciates the way he feels. And, this is the one that needs to be protected, shielded? Not me, I'd FBI sweat him for 80 hours straight, no easy peasy, "he's suffered enough", but that's just me. These actions where the innocent citizen suffers consequences and the cop is pampered rubs me the wrong way.
Also, to add insult to injury, they took the families' cell phones and marched them to headquarters in handcuffs! I hope they bankrupt this SWAT Team and sue their ass off, fuck charity! So many mistakes. Yeah, they convicted the gamer, but now I want to know about how they will never screw up like this again. Show me the foolproof plan.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 30, 2019, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 30, 2019 05:19 PM
This incident was, for all intents and purposes, a local event for me as Wichita isn't that far from where I live and I was watching the local news the night this happened and they came on with a live report from the scene. I chose to withhold judgment - if I was even entitled to have an opinion - until the "facts" had been sorted out.
LB is right, there was a strong LE presence at that house that night. The incident started over a .150 online gaming bet and the guy who was pissed reached out to another gamer in CA who had a history of swatting other people. The CA gamer made the call and sent LE there under the premise that a violent crime had occurred and things were about to get worse. It's dark, the house is surrounded, blue and red lightbars are strobing on the front of the house and WPD calls the guy out. He comes out to see what the hell isgoing on. He has his hands up and, at one point, still not aware of why the cops are there, he lowers his hands. Maybe his pants were slipping and he reached to pull them back up. Only he knows, or knew. Anyway, he has officers up close and personal to him when another officer across the street perceives a threat and fires an assault rifle striking the subject in the head and killing him.
An internal investigation into the incident determined that the shooting was an unfortunate accident and the officer who pulled the trigger was given not so much as a reprimand. Wichita is a community of ~350,000 people. Maybe not a big city to you, but the biggest in Kansas, and I daresay that this incident has done grievous damage to the relationship between its citizens and the law enforcement community. Regardless of skin color, a LOT of people in Wichita now regard their police department to be corrupt and willing to cover their own's ass, even when they out and out kill an innocent man. WPD and the City of Wichita has thus far kept the name of the officer under wraps for his safety, and that hasn't helped things at all.
After the facts were in, as best as we could get, I chose to look at this from the perspective of whether the officer was criminally negligent. By my understanding, the courts would look at whether this officer acted in a manner that is consistent with how other LEO's of similar training, in the exact same situation, would have acted under the same circumstances. As bad luck would have it, the victim here was surrounded by a sizable crowd of LEO's with similar training, many of which were much closer to the victim than the shooter, yet none of them perceived a threat of sufficient magnitude to compel them to shoot the guy.
I've responded to emergency calls with lights and sirens driving ambulances, fire trucks and police cars literally thousands of times and, at no time did I ever lose sight of the fact that if I ran a red light or acted in such a manner that resulted in harm or death to an innocent individual, my ass would be on the line and I would be deserving of whatever they did to me. In no way, shape or form would I be allowed to try and dismiss my actions by claiming that I was under a lot of stress. Part of the reason I was selected for those jobs, and the training I received for dealing with those environments on an ongoing basis throughout those careers, was because I demonstrated an ability to perform under those circumstances.
Just the reporting on this swatter's 20-year sentence has people in Wichita and Sedgwick County posting online like an angry mob again. I feel pretty safe saying that this issue is far from over down here and that it will get worse for the City of Wichita before it finally goes away.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 31, 2019 03:06 AM
You are correct, the officer may be criminally negligent. There is no "cover up" here. This is a matter for the courts to decide.
If you take a look at this video, which shows a police shooting that occurred in the Princeton NJ Panera Bread. The man had a gun which later turned out to be a BB gun. The officers on scene had no way of knowing that. One of these officers, who is shown in the video, is a personal friend of mine. He feels badly that the gun turned out to be a BB gun, but he could not have known.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyT8rqq1WYQ
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted March 31, 2019 03:38 AM
Leonard you first post had nothing to say about the incident mostly about swatting after reading subsequent articles that state he was shot in the head or shot in the chest I guess we just pick one , Either way this was a cop with poor training and he should be removed from the police force.
With several officers up close to the victim what was he thinking. If I were an officer I would refuse to work with him. The sad part is even after a thorough investigation nothing will bring back an innocent man or boy in this case ! Very sad and unnecessary.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 31, 2019 05:38 AM
Yeah, I know. I guess there was too much taken for granted at the top and I was reading the messages below from people that knew more. But, even so, this so called "Swatting" is a phenomena I knew nothing about, it's beyond crazy and has the potential to fuck up the entire 911 system. Having said that, police everywhere had better damned well be aware of this stuff and there has to be a better policy that throttles the RED LIGHTS AND PANIC SITUATION.
If you surround enough houses, from here forward, there will be a lot of unintended consequences. Total assholes that argue over a buck and a half bet, and do not understand the consequences of their actions, or maybe they do understand? 13 nervous cops with guns drawn, what could go wrong? Well, THIS is what can go wrong!
And, I'm upset about it. Oops! Sorry doesn't cut it.
Good hunting. El Bee
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Don't piss me off!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 31, 2019 06:12 AM
Now, addressing the video posted by 49.
Where do I start? Look, I understand, a BB pistol looks freaky dangerous, and we don't know how any conversation went, but this unhinged man pointed a BB gun at 2 dozen police who were barricaded, with bulletproof vests and machine-guns. So, this was the green light to shoot him several times and thereby save the officers' lives!
I strenuously question the justification. I understand stupid choices and stupid prizes, etc. But, they have the asshole surrounded and the police placed themselves in the situation, as I said, behind barriers with body armor and they have him covered ten ways from Sunday. "hey, he pointed a pistol!" Game over.
I'm sorry, I ain't buying it! If they were truly threatened, that's their fault for putting themselves into that situation. My brother in law was eventually promoted to Lieutenant in the LA Sheriff's Department for defusing a situation without killing the disturbed person. edit: and he ain't even black or Gay!
I am bothered by the "pointing" justification just as much as the "reaching for the waistband" justification. What I see is trigger happy cops looking for a reason to kill, and the fallback justification is protecting the public.
I'm very sensitive to 49 and his position here, coming in good faith and I wouldn't want to offend him in the slightest. Since we are in New Jersey, more or less, let me refer to this as "My Spartacus Moment", in honor of their obnoxious, loud mouthed, baldheaded senator. This shit pisses me off! Is this the kind of protecting the public we are paying for? I think I am calling for a little more restraint. Let's regroup, rethink this shit.
End of rant
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 31, 2019, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 31, 2019 09:22 AM
Fair enough Leonard, and I do respect your position.
'Nuff said here.
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted March 31, 2019 05:34 PM
BB gun Fake plastic toy gun, either way the police had no way of knowing. They have to act on it being the real thing, IMO.
Anyone that pulls a gun, real or not, on a cop has to expect to get shot, again IMO.
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted March 31, 2019 07:44 PM
Dan, you got nothing from my post? If some asshole points a “gun” at the SWAT, game over, right?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
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posted April 01, 2019 02:36 AM
Yup.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 01, 2019 07:50 AM
I don't agree with that. Those guys even had some type of shields to hide behind, in addition to bulletproof vests. One BB gun aimed at one shield, if you want to call it aimed. As far as I am concerned, that is NOT reason to kill the asshole who is obviously suffering from some type of mental issues. I see manslaughter, minimum. In this liberal society, people get away with much. I am far from a Liberal, far from a bleeding heart. I see these cops not exercising reasonable judgement. Sure, (wink, wink) they didn't know it was a BB gun, but if I stare at a weapon from across the room long enough, I don't have to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to notice that tiny little hole in the barrel. Don't tell me they don't see it; they see it, and wrestle with their logic so they can't be sure. I know it's a dicy situation, but we have a sick man, not a trapped and dangerous (never take me alive) career criminal. Police are trained to know the difference, or they should.
They already ran a background check and know this guy never bought a real gun in his life. I don't know this for a fact, but I know they can do it and they have data on every swinging dick in the whole country, you, me and that jerk hiding in the corner....and not really doing a very good job of concealment, is he? Not like I would if I were in a barricade situation, there wouldn't be a hell of a lot of skin exposed. But this guy isn't worried about that and the cops are very aware of it. Secretly, they know what they are dealing with, they do this shit every day. But there it is, he "pointed" it, that's the green light, take him out. ko ko says, YUP!
I am calling for a little more restraint. They got the motherfucker surrounded and he ain't going nowhere. Yell at him, put the gun down, don't be pointing it at us and chances are he will probably comply. If he doesn't that's strike #1. You still have your body armor and you shield and you are just barely exposing as little body as possible.
Let's change it up, for a minute. The perp isn't a male, she is a little old lady, and it's obvious she has never held a gun before, in her life. Now what? Doesn't matter? She still get's wasted?
THE POLICE HOLD ALL THE CARDS. If they shoot him because he waved a BB gun in their direction, that's SLOPPY POLICE WORK, PERIOD.
Look. Police volunteer to go in harms way. They know and they have the BUNKER MENTALITY to prove it. Everybody's against them, they think; but of course it's not true. They get training up the ass and they still can't parse: weapon=panic. The average soldier deployed in the sandbox has much better control of the threat posed by weapons. This is true, cops just go nuts when confronted with a weapon. Who's the nutcase here? See what I mean?
49, you get credit for hanging in here, I hope you understand that the discussion, on my part is completely theoretical. A complex problem in search of a solution.
Thanks for playing along!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 01, 2019 01:28 PM
I have to respectfully disagree.
Any sane and reasonable person who hears something out front and goes to check it out only to find a yard full of cops with guns drawn isn't going to wait to be told to put his hands up. He's going to do it...… and live to see the whole mess straightened out.
Or …… he can point something at the cops just to see what they'll do. Bad idea. Play stupid games/win stupid prizes.
Cops are not perfect. Split second decisions made under stress can be flat out wrong regardless of how much training they've had. But; at some point a person dealing with the police needs to take responsibility for their own actions.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
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posted April 01, 2019 05:57 PM
Koko,
In the Wichita incident, that's exactly what he did. He reached down and had nothing in his hand according to the local reports. My guess, again, is that his hands went up and his drawers started going down. He reached to hike them up and lights out.
If and when there's a gun-like device involved, all bets are off. Common sense would dictate that.
Last summer, I was shopping with the wife (thank God) and a couple of youths were walking down my street. Now, most nice nights, I'm in my garage smoking a cigar and kicking back. My neighbors were out when these two young men - 15 y/o white males - came walking down our nice quiet street swearing and arguing with one another. My neighbor has small kids so he nicely requested that they watch their language. One of these boys told him basically that he needed to watch his fucking mouth which prompted Jack to approach him. When Jack's brother walked up alongside him, one of the boys swung at him, catching him on the shoulder. Will (brother) roundhoused the little fucker and laid him out. The other nice boy then hiked his Tshirt revealing what looked to be a handgun in his waist lineand started some bullshit about being from Compton. We don't give a shit. As he drew it, Jack let loose on him knocking the "gun" out of his hand and redecorating his face with a left and a right, charging at him until he had him on the ground backpeddling for his life. Jack told me afterwards that he knew the gun was fake as soon as he heard it clicking across the pavement. It was an airsoft from which he had removed the orange tip. I wasn't home that night, and I likely wouldn't have been carrying if I was, but my AR was ten feet away from my work area in a rack. What if Jack had been carrying? A month earlier, another neighbor of mine had to draw down on a dirtbag we had living up here who was in the middle of an alcohol fueled rage in the street My neighbor backed up and away from the guy with his CCW on the guy's chest, and the DB turned away from him and ranted his way back home, but I don't know that he ever really realized how close he came that night. Either of them. Scary to think about though.
The world is going to shit anymore. That's the only "for sure". You never know. I don't go looking for that shit, but it sure seems to be popping up a lot anymore.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
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posted April 02, 2019 10:00 AM
CDude;
In that case, it is truly unfortunate. However, it doesn't show malice on the part of the police.... Just that sometimes shit happens.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2019 09:19 AM
Yeah, but. For all of you hard asses out there.
What I want to say is that these cops that are surrounding the upset individual, they could afford to let the situation pan out. I think everybody know the difference between vaguely "pointing" and intentionally, I'm going to shoot at somebody. Everybody knows the difference. We already decided that reaching to keep your pants from falling down, was enough to get you justifiably and deliberately shot through the heart. And, if I had the power to change that Rambo attitude, I would sure as hell do it. Cops are there to risk their lives, as far as I'm concerned, they volunteered to be put in harm's way, and it didn't come with a license to kill everybody that makes some kind of threatening move. The way I feel about it, if it has to be one or the other, a cop is a preferred victim over a completely innocent citizen absent mindedly swatting at a fly. The cop asked for the job, the citizen doesn't understand that he is in a life and death situation.
The reason I have this attitude is that I always place myself in the situation and realize there are a few cops out on the street that will take me out for the slightest gesture. You can't even solve it by putting your hands up, people have been killed by accident and deliberately. If they feel the "probable cause" to arrest you, they also think they can kill you if they think you are resisting. You just have to be very careful around cops.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 03, 2019 04:22 PM
The video I referenced, the one showing the Panera Bread shooting, has been examined by experts in the field. These troopers were lauded for using incredible restraint.
There is more to the story that I can't share (possible pending lawsuit), but we do have to put ourselves in the officers' position and view it from their perspective.
Body armor is fallible. Bullets, even handgun bullets, can defeat it. There is also the head shot to consider.
I am not saying the police are perfect. But sometimes things aren't as cut and dry as they seem.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
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posted April 03, 2019 05:19 PM
I haven't had the chance to look at 49's video, but I did eat lunch at a Panera Bread once. ONCE. I can honestly see someone losing their shit over the food they serve. I wasn't real happy about the outcome either, but the cops weren't called.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
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posted April 03, 2019 06:05 PM
I am with ya on Panera. I actually go in there if I'm passing by for a loaf of bread, but eating their food is something I'm not willing to do anymore. It's really crummy, I don't see how they stay in business? I've been there maybe 4 times, never as my choice and figured, oh well, maybe I just picked something that was sub par. But I've never had a satisfactory meal in that joint.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted April 05, 2019 07:51 AM
I am not sure where this video should go, but there are a few opinions in this thread about hard and fast rules if a cop sees a gun or a cop sees a reach for the waistband, or if a gun is pointed in the general direction of a cop.
This video shows a man who fell asleep in, of all places, the drive through lane at Taco Bell. What ensues is a lengthly attempt to wake him up and much strategy.
Here's the whole situation, in a nutshell. This guy has a gun in his lap, and we all know who a police officer responds when they are confronted with a citizen and a gun. In this case, he is shot 25 times by six police officers.
Now, there are comments above that we must accept personal responsibility and all that. What I have been trying to point out is that the police make poor decisions all the time, and this is one of them. Six officers and between them, they can't think of anything better than to jar him into consciousness and shot the motherfucker when they freak out because he touched that gun in his lap. The gun didn't have the magazine inserted, (they knew this) and realized that there still could be one round chambered. Reason enough for the overwhelming response, as far as they were concerned.
This fits rather nicely with my opinion that police overreact when they see a fucking gun! So, watch the video and tell me the guy had it coming.
oops! BRB
here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL07ZeGstP8
[ April 05, 2019, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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