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Author
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Topic: We should talk about this "SWATTING' stuff
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted April 05, 2019 09:09 PM
LB, I think it is pretty obvious, that if I think a cop or anyone is wrong I'll say it.
Now on this last guy in the drive thru, what a clusterfuck. They had the guy boxed in and he was asleep/passed out? I think, if they wanted to speed things up they could have busted his window, they could have given verbal commands over load speaker with all the cars flashing lights on, maybe hit the siren a few times. Where is this idiot going to go? He is boxed in. With them at a safe distance I don't see the level of danger. Hell, turn a firehose on him.
I think the train wreck those cops provoked was unjustified.
[ April 06, 2019, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 06, 2019 04:59 AM
#1. Man is passed out in the drive thru with a gun in his lap. This raises a red flag, probably even to non-police personnel I would think.
#2. The mag WAS inserted properly in the well. As was stated in the entire video if you watched it, it was an EXTENDED mag that the officers initially thought was a standard mag loose in the mag well.
#3. Stolen gun (I realize the officers didn't know this at the time).
#4. The movement....the man moves forward and we can't see what happens inside the car. Officers claimed he grabbed the gun. If so, then this is a justified shooting. If not, then it's unjustified until at which point he does grab the gun.
#5. As a police officer with 30 years experience, I can tell the officers did everything they could in order to NOT shoot the man. They even had a plan to grab the gun off his lap until he started moving.
#6. It's a matter for the courts, with forensic evidence, etc.
I had a similar situation 25 years ago with two African=American males sleeping in a car 2 AM on the shoulder of a highway. There was a handgun resting between them, just to the rear of their console seats. We had to devise a plan on the spot to get the gun out without shooting them. The car was locked so we woke them up. We yelled for them to put their hands on the windshield. At one point the guy I was covering actually reached back towards the handgun. I screamed for him to stop and he finally did. He came extremely close to dying. If I would have fired I would have been 100% justified, but I was able to hold my fire for one more instant. Not all police officers have the same level of tolerance in this type of situation. Everyone is different. We have to give police officers the tools they need to protect themselves. I am being honest here.
That having been said, I cannot qualify on what transpired in the above video, below the door window line which we cannot see on body cam. The police officers may have been justified and they may not have been. It's up to the experts and the courts.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 06, 2019 07:31 AM
Thanks for your professional opinion, 49.
I know there was an issue of an extended magazine and the gun was apparently stolen. Both of those facts were unknown to the police surrounding the vehicle. So, they proceeded with the idea that the magazine was withdrawn and he MAY have had one round available. And, he's going to kill six police officers who are already carefully aiming guns at him, with ONE SHOT. Does this really make sense?
I still can't understand the whole bullshit: reaching for waistband, pointing it, and in this case just touching the gun with his hand, which was subject to interpretation. They are only threatened because they are standing there, outside the vehicle. If I felt threatened, I'd back away, maybe duck down, but these guys are pointing guns, finger on the trigger. How is this an intelligent tactic? They provoked the situation. Why not bump his vehicle from behind, while the rest of them hid behind the corner somewhere?
I don't know? Afterwards, to even bring up the fact that the gun was stolen doesn't seem to have anything to do with it, just a cover your ass, and be sure to make the victim look guilty.
49 says: "#1. Man is passed out in the drive thru with a gun in his lap. This raises a red flag, probably even to non-police personnel I would think."
The guy is passed out. I have fallen asleep in my vehicle with firearms plainly visible. What do you do when you wake up, is every movement predictable and non threatening to a cop standing by my window?
#5 "....They even had a plan to grab the gun off his lap until he started moving."
Yeah, until they panicked and the shit hit the fan.
As far asI'm concerned, cops have a brain disconnect every time they see a gun. Seems like most of the time, just to be cautious they shoot until the threat is gone.
The scenario: Man is sleeping in his locked vehicle with a gun in his lap. Cut to the chase: Man is killed, shot 25 times. Does anybody see where this could have happened differently? Red Flag? Leave him alone. No, they surround him and immediately think they are threatened when he bends forward. This is just group stupidity, near as I can tell. Don't tell me stupid tricks, stupid prizes. I don't need a court white washing this to tell me it was wrong, top to bottom.
I'm not involved, but I take stuff like this personally. If what happened is adjudicated as perfectly reasonable police procedure, stop the fucking bus, I want to get off!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Post Script, Let's face it, police would be very happy if everybody was disarmed. Police are afraid, they want to come home to their divorced wife, who isn't there anymore. Because, all wives know what it's like living with a police officer, and unless they are also in law enforcement, they can't take the stress. Let's face it, cops only have cops for friends because only other cops understand what they are up against; it's us against them, which is everybody. And yet, this is the only occupation they ever wanted. God Bless 'em. We need them but they pay a terrible price, mentally. I know, not all of them have the bunker mentality. I wouldn't do that job for all the tea in China. LB
[ April 06, 2019, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 06, 2019 06:01 PM
I don't know Leonard...
I have friends who aren't cops. Matter of fact, my two closest friends aren't cops. One owns a chimney company and the other is a tax attorney. You see, to be around cops all the time you feel you have to keep up that "teflon image." Around my non-LEO friends I can let my hair down a little. Then again, my cop friends will always stick up for me if and when people talk behind my back. There is something to be said for that. They also would always have my back in a bar fight.
I don't disagree with much of what you are saying to a point. However....sometimes you tend to paint with a broad brush. I just gave you a real life example from my own personal experience where I could have legally dropped the hammer on some guy with his gun in reach at 2 AM and you completely skipped over it like it didn't happen. Not all cops are trigger happy, nervous, gun hating bastards. Many of us actually are hunters (imagine that) and really feel strongly about our second amendment rights. So I know I will never get through to you. Maybe I am just trying to get you to see the "other side" once in a while. Keeping an open mind might be good for both sides of the fence.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 06, 2019 09:43 PM
49, I am very aware of your sensitivity, and willingness to share your side of the coin. I want to speak in generalities if possible but I know you used a personal example and probably should have addressed it, God knows we go
off on tangents often enough. Besides, or maybe besides isn’t the best choice of words but, I give you quite s bit of credit for being not of the mold, or how a lot of us stereotype police officers. So, in a way the fact that you showed restraint in your example is, as one might say, beside the point.
If I thought the vast majority of police thought and behaved as you do, there wouldn’t be much to talk about. Like, who would ever start a thread about bad truck drivers? Professional long line cross country big rig drivers are usually professionals snd we don’t hear much about them being responsible for accidents and killing innocent travelers. Maybe it’s the other way around. We don’t think of truck drivers as possessing a bunker mentality, and all their friends are other drivers. I don’t know maybe that’s a bad example? But do they suffer the high divorce rates of law enforcement? Doubtful?
I’m really sorry that you take my comments personally. I do not mean them as a sideways slam of you, far from it. I think of you as a valuable resource where we might be able to unscrew your head and peer inside, just a little bit. To find out how you think and for you to educate some of our more opinionated members/meaning me primarily. It’s good to have you around, not to beat up but to get some idea of how you guys think, when we think things have gone horribly wrong and you might offer how the person that was killed was responsible for his own death. Don’t forget, there are plenty of people here that support cops without fail. Take ko ok for example. He doesn’t think any of the recent examples reflect poorly on the police, at all. Lots of citizens are far more willing to think the perp had it coming than tend to question how the cop handled the event. So it’s not like you come in here and it’s you against the world.
I’ve slready said it s couple times, I put myself in the position of the victim. I try to understand why they acted as they did and I can’t hrlp but think that it’s the cop that puts himself in these situations.
In closing, I will again point out something I learned from
my brother in law. Cops actually WANT to be where the action is. The action is on graveyard. All the promotions are on
graveyard. Cops volunteer for graveyard. With civilians, that’s the bottom rung, they get off of graveyard and get “white man hours” just as soon as they get enough seniority.
See how the different thinking applies? Yet, they all say they want to return home to their family....if they have one.
Okay, that’s it. I apologize for picking on you. I didn’t mean for you to take it personal. Sorry!
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
edit; I finger typed this on iPhone and I’m not going to correct anything. please excuse!
[ April 06, 2019, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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