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Author
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Topic: deadly force bothers me, don't know if I could do it?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 23, 2018 12:44 PM
Look at the video in the first paragraph. A man acts as parking enforcement, confronts passenger , driver shoves him and is killed. This constitutes "STAND YOUR GROUND"? This guy should be awaiting trial on murder charges, in my opinion.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/mcglockton-shooting-gun-owners-outraged/
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 23, 2018 01:42 PM
My feeling is this , if you are in fear for you life its justified .
, this is not that !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 23, 2018 01:58 PM
Don't know what's being said.
But, if you push somebody to the ground during an argument you probably don't have good intentions.
Should the guy on the ground have waited until he was getting the shit kicked out of him before shooting ???
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7581 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted July 23, 2018 02:50 PM
It looks bad but I don't know enough facts. Did the assailant threaten to beat the shit out of the parking officer. The attacker is a young strong male. Is the victim old or much smaller? Three components to using deadly force. First, someone is threatening you with deadly force or serious bodily harm. The attacker has already shoved him to the ground with obvious strength. Second, the threat must be imminent. Third, can the person threatening you carry out the threat. Things like weapons, number of attackers, two against one, big man vs small man, old man vs young man come into play. I don't have enough information to make a decision on the third criteria.
[ July 23, 2018, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 23, 2018 03:25 PM
It looks like he very deliberately killed him for pushing him to the ground. Retaliation, not stand your ground, fearing for his life. Also, the man was retreating. This stinks.
Good hunting. El Bee
Edit: by the way. The shooter was the aggressor all the way, provoked the confrontation and then when things escalated, whipped out his Rosco. He stuck his nose into something that was none of his business. If he gets away with it, it’s a miscarriage of justice
[ July 23, 2018, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 23, 2018 11:14 PM
Here's a thought;
Next time you (anybody) get pulled over by a cop, argue with him and then push him to the ground.
Then see if he calmly discusses your issues with you or just Glocks your ass.
I'm curious to hear 49s take on this.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7581 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 24, 2018 06:53 AM
You can't be serious, kp ko? Someone pushes you, you fall to the ground, and that's justification for what (in my view) is cold blooded murder?
Let's see? Change the scenario; now you push a police officer. His first reaction is not to scuffle with assailant, he sits there and double taps?
Statistically, how many times a day does somebody get pushed? How many of those kill the person who pushed them? It just doesn't compute, for me?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: oh, I will admit, in the case of a police officer, that he will draw his weapon and point it at the assailant. I just don't see him firing it without further escalation?
[ July 24, 2018, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 24, 2018 07:37 AM
I watched the video and while the parking enforcement prick was asking for trouble, he could have been scared for his life, we just don't know.
As to the pusher backing away, he only backed away after the pushee reached behind his back to draw.
After dealing with my daughter in a wheelchair for a while, I can see the frustration of people parking in handicapped spots without reason. But it's no reason to take someones life.
I would hate to lose our Stand your ground law over stupid stuff like this so fry him.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 24, 2018 12:56 PM
Another point. I have always been a little resentful when I see somebody in handicapped parking who doesn't have a leg missing. Well, there are people with heart problems that can't walk very far without being exhausted or emphysema, and they look normal. But they still qualify for handicapped parking.
The other point is, all the restrictions and rules as it relates to private property is a gray area as far as an actual violation of the vehicle code, in most states. If you are, let's say, in a gated community and they post a speed limit of 15MPH and you are going 25, I doubt that you will ever be ticketed for speeding? Same with a stop sign on a parking lot. It may very well be the same thing with handicapped parking at the 7-11? It's private property and more or less a courtesy situation, not a violation of the vehicle code. ko ko knows this stuff; am I right?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 24, 2018 01:06 PM
In Az. management can request that the police enforce the parking restrictions. Otherwise, they generally don't.
Which is interesting because they will cruise the lots looking for expired tags & running plate numbers for owners with warrants.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted July 24, 2018 02:23 PM
I met a handicap guy in a wheel chair who patrols and writes tickets for illegal parking in handicap parking spots. In Arizona any LEO can enforce it and it has a punitive fine.
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Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 24, 2018 06:13 PM
I would never park in a handicapped site though I qualify for one , but its nothing to kill over !
If someone hit me in the jaw my life would be over !
hence I carry 24 7 365 and will kill you in an instant if you move aggressively on me ! Its quite simple !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 25, 2018 08:06 AM
wow
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted July 28, 2018 08:29 AM
I guess none of us know what was in those guys minds, but maybe this should make people realize they should not touch other people. Getting touched back may be brutal.
I've seen too many instances where people think it is ok to punch someone or push them. Bullying people has consequences. "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
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Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 28, 2018 08:55 AM
my jaw, artificial as it is costs 780k I don't think I could survive another surgery such as the last one ! come at me die !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 28, 2018 02:27 PM
I can understand the way things are, these days.
But, in spite of GPS and smart phones and flat screen TV's, the old days were better and I pity those that haven't experienced those days and haven't a clue what I'm talking about.
I used to make so many sling shots, you can't even find an inner tube to cut the straps any more. That's not a tragedy, I know. But somewhere in the 60's, I stopped leaving my keys in the ignition.
When I was in high school, I had more fist fights than a millennial could count without his computer and usually, it was over, shake hands and respect. I'm not blaming people for honest statements, but the attitude in general is definitely kill somebody that pushes you to the ground, if you happen to lose your balance. Stupid whatever gets stupid results, or however it was stated?
Back in the day, believe me, I could be gone before daylight and maybe be back for supper, as it was called, in those days. They might not even ask where the hell I've been, unless I missed some appointment? Or the time I was spear fishing down at the river when I suddenly remembered that we were leaving for our two week fishing at the cabin. I had such a gash in my leg that 3 days later it was blood poisoning and I had a gauze pad with borax so the wound would heal from the inside and why the hell did I mention this? It was just a more casual time, innocent even though in a few years we had drills where we crouched under our desks until the all clear signal.
If you ever doubted the goodness of Americans, LIKE THE LEFT DOES TODAY, you could look at life behind the Iron Curtin. I've actually seen some of it, Amigos. The fucking Russians did nothing for Hungary and east Germany and Poland, etc. Compare that to the Marshall Plan, if you know what that is? Two world wars fought in Europe and we rebuilt it, the Russians didn't. Same thing in Japan and Korea. There is no comparison between the compassion of Americans and the rest of the jerk off world. Who sends aid every time there is a hurricane somewhere? We do. Who sends Foreign Aid to all those countries that vote against our interests at the United Nations? Yeah, we do. Then, all we ask is that they pay 2% for their own defense. I guess 80% of Democrats hate America, something like that, Madonna wants to blow up the White House, etc.
WE could have ruled the fucking world, if we were so inclined. But, we rebuilt it. China has been a backward country for centuries until Nixon opened up trade and other considerations and now, the bastards are still taking advantage of us and most people think Trump is wrong to ask that those bastards play fair. The quest for political control is strong and the Left doesn't seem to care about anything besides control and the vote of incredibly stupid and shallow people, and if that's not enough, allow illegal non citizens to vote. Exactly what else, what privilege is left to a citizen these days? They have the nerve to talk about "unconstitutional this and that, FOR NON CITIZENS! I'm sorry but how does UNCONSTITUTIONAL even apply to foreigners? Liberals seem to think they are the only ones that deserve the protection of the federal government, and our privilege amounts to paying for this enforcement.
So, now we have a question. Is concealed carry more important than closing loopholes and disarming FLYOVER COUNTRY? It's called reasonable and common sense disarming laws. When a Liberal feels insecure, he wants to take your guns, never crosses his mind to arm himself. I don't care if they are afraid of guns, but I am afraid of their solution which is to take away my security. You just can't fix stupid and Liberals are nothing if not criminally stupid CONTROL FREAKS.
Where was I? Oh yeah. It's like this, I don't have a lot of confidence in the younger generation. They are quite capable of giving away our freedom. WE have raised a couple generations of blooming idiots known as Liberals. Brainwashed by higher education, they have no concept of history. One day, if we let it happen, the Russians and Chinese could be ruling the world and America voted out of existence by the United Nation Security Council. Think it can't happen? I'm not at all sure?
What I can say is that I do not envy the younger generation. They don't know shit. They will be in charge, and like Franklin said: "a Republic, if you can keep it'. The whole question of freedom doesn't amount to the Second Amendment, probably, maybe? It's out of my hands, like I give a shit. All I know is this country is not better than it was, it's worse. When Lance talks about conditions in the Heartland, Middle America, Flyover Country, you can't feel confident that things will turn out ok. The fucking Liberals are determined to destroy everything. I think they are winning.
Democrats are against EVERYTHING that Republicans and Trump wants to do. It's not reasonable: everything? They are evil, somebody needs to step up and stop the bullshit.
Thank you for wading through this disjoined rambling. END OF RANT
Good hunting. El Bee
[ July 28, 2018, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31463 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted July 29, 2018 05:24 AM
LB, I remember back in High School, in the 70's for me. We got into fistfights, would afterwards shake hands and move on. However my graduating class was small, 110 I think, not big for St. Louis. Everyone knew everyone. You weren't worried about a guy pulling a knife or busting a cap. Then forced busing came and integration. Things changed, and quickly. Kids from the inner city, good and bad. Now you have car-jackings and the wannabe gang members doing the one punch knockout for gang initiations. The meth tweakers, and other drugged out crazy bastards. Bosnian gangs, black, white, asian, seems to be no end. Seems people are afraid and just can't trust like they used too, especially strangers.
Did that guy deserve to die for knocking that guy down to the ground, probably not, but some people don't want to take the chance of getting anymore.
My attitude has changed over the years. Now I look at a car thief and say yea, I don't feel sorry for you lame ass if you get shot, that car cost the owner 4-5 years of his/her life making payments. Now someone taking apples off the tree in my back yard, OK that is a different situation. Someone breaks into a home when someone is there, bad guys deserves to be shot.
Liberals don't want to punish bad guys anymore. They want to call it a disease, or mental health issue. They were crazy then but they are all better now type shit, Coexist, tolerance, etc.. Unless you are a conservative! (rant over)
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Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 29, 2018 06:42 AM
I refuse to be a victim Its that easy Leonard , fuk em !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 29, 2018 08:27 AM
No problem, Paul. You have stated your case, and if you can do it without remorse, and live with it, more power to ya.
Hey, I'm not a soft hearted Liberal. But, a guy shoving some asshole bothering his wife, is what I'm talking about. Just on the face of it, you don't know if you are killing a jihadist or someone you would gladly have a beer with, under most any circumstance; whoops, excuse me for banging your door, sorry, I tripped and bumped you, I turned around suddenly and my elbow connected with your nose and here's a Kleenex to stop the bleeding, Sorry, just as I was coming out of the restroom you were coming in and we collided, let me help you pick that stuff up, etc. etc.
This wasn't that sort of casual encounter but to me, it still cheapens the value of human life enough to concern me. That parking cop was brave and bold just because he had a gun in his pocket, obviously looking for trouble. And, to make matters worse, for me, the asshole got away with it because, stand your ground. Then ko ko says, well how do we know more wasn't forthcoming, therefore "I'd have shot him, just in case". Forgive me for putting words in your mouth. The whole thing bothers me, I'd be more like the Treyvon martin situation, the man would have to be on top pounding the shit out of me before I would shoot him. I know it's me with the problem, as in character flaw.
I think it is good to discuss.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 29, 2018 09:00 AM
In this case I see your point I don't think deadly force was the proper choice but when it is necessary
so be it !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 29, 2018 01:59 PM
As much as I support the right to carry - whether open or concealed - this is the unfortunate and tragic end result of someone who really has no business being armed. I don't care what state you live in, self-defense is exactly that - defense. The moment the guy who did the pushing backed off, immediately after shoving the older guy down, the opportunity at self-defense ended.
The standard concealed carry license training course results in woefully unprepared folks being given a permit to carry a dangerous weapon. All the course covers is the laws that apply to when and where you can carry, confront, and shoot or not shoot. There is no real role-playing or scenario training to speak of. Classroom on the laws and an hour on the range shooting no more than one has to in order to show that they can hit a pie plate at point blank range and you're good to go. I have said many, many times that the class should mandate the safe gun handling modules from hunter's safety programs so that the student can be exposed to how to handle, unload and load a firearm safely. They really don't even cover that.
I watch a lot of videos of incidents like this for no other reason than to challenge myself with the question of what would I do in the same situation. Hindsight is, in fact, 20/20 and it helps immensely when you use those opportunities to learn from the mistakes of others.
I carry fairly regularly, and I remind myself often that my rights with my gun are extremely limited. Unless I, or someone else, is in IMMINENT DANGER, my right to employ a firearm in defending myself is very tenuous.
It's scary to think how many people carry with no practical training whatsoever. That's their right. I support that, but they should have impressed upon them that they need some training - as much as they can afford, for their own safety as well as those around them.
I wonder if this guy would have taken it upon himself to confront another person if he didn't have a gun? What authority did he have to confront this person as opposed to getting their license plate and vehicle description and calling the police? Everyone has a camera with them these days and there is no excuse to take the law into your own hands regardless of how benign the offense might be.
Did the shooter "murder" the guy? Technically,... maybe. Legally, what he did would rise to the level of manslaughter in Kansas. Any time someone dies as a result of a physical altercation, especially when a gun is involved, the shooter's actions must be very closely and very deeply scrutinized to ensure that an incident like this doesn't establish a precedent that results in further incidents of this type.
I know a guy whose brother started a fight in a bar in Wichita with another guy. The other guy beat him down so bad that he died that night. Witnesses confirmed who started the fight, but that the other guy kept beating him well past when he was unresponsive. Yet, no charges were filed. Same sort of thing here.
Once the initial issue is over - the shoving - and the assailant disengages - when the guy backed off - the shooter lost his claim to self-defense, IMO. He needs to be charged.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 30, 2018 04:31 AM
If some guy steals my car I watch him drive away that's what insurance is for ! Not stupid just armed
because there are a lot of stupid people out there.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Semp
GOLD STAR MEMBER
Member # 3074
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posted July 31, 2018 10:13 AM
quote:
Once the initial issue is over - the shoving - and the assailant disengages - when the guy backed off - the shooter lost his claim to self-defense, IMO. He needs to be charged.
That's how I see the situation. The assailant saw the gun and stopped his aggression. It should have ended there. The man on the ground could have had him charged with assault. But killing the dude was over the top IMHO.
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posted August 13, 2018 11:41 AM
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