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Author
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Topic: Coyote travel
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 17, 2024 11:08 AM
A hound's man in Ohio caught two coyotes last year and then caught four more this year and put a I.D. dog collar as well as ear tags on them and then released them. Some of them were caught/shot sometime later and were roughly five miles or less from area captured and two were hit by cars. One coyote turned up missing and was one caught last year few months after being collared. Well, this weekend the missing coyote (male) from last year finally turned up 107 miles from where it was collared. Thats a hell of a trip for that one to make in search of a mate.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted March 17, 2024 10:05 PM
That shit's been going on for as long as I've been hunting coyotes! I remember a big stink in North or south Carolina where some guy was importing coyotes from Texas and he would use them to train his hounds. I never really understood how chasing coyotes was good training for Hounds? But then, this was BEFORE they ever had feral coyotes in N.S. Carolina and the speculation was that it was escapees that began the indigenous population. I don't know, but it's really stretching my memory banks to come up with that much!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 18, 2024 05:43 AM
Leonard that's how you train hounds to run coyotes and then you find out who makes the cut for the team and who don't. I know places like Indiana have live coyote sales. Coyotes are sold off to coyote pens used for training and also competition hunts or puppy hunts. Dogs chase coyotes in the hunts and then scored as they pass by one of the judges posted in pen someplace. Usually only first five that make a crossing get a score and hunts run from 3 hours and up. Some places also have a one-day hunt, two-day hunt and also a five day but I believe they dropped the five-day hunts now. Most people don't know but coyotes love to run as much as the dogs it's just a game to them long as they don't get caught. Most pens also don't allow catches and if one happens the judges step in and pull the dogs off so coyote can make a getaway.
I have 3 wild coyotes that show up on the farm where I keep my kennel, and they just come in yard about once a week to just tease the dogs knowing they can't get out to play. Then when I do get dogs out, they will run the coyote's ass off and if they don't get caught, they be back up in yard a week later wanting to play. I only put a few dogs on them at a time as I don't want the dogs to catch them, just run them for exercise and training.
But this post wasn't really about this what its about is how far a coyote has moved looking for new ground or a mate. 107 miles is a pretty good trip for one.
My buddy in southern Iowa takes it a step farther and puts old GPS collars on caught coyotes just to see where they go and how they move about and when battery starts to get weak, he then runs them with the dogs again and removes the collar or put a charged collar back on. Or he just kills them.
I have another friend down there that supplies coyotes for the pens and he has a big old barn full of them. Last time I was there he had like 2oo-250 coyotes in the barn. Now that's something to see and watch with so many coyotes and all with different personalities. Blow on a howler and light them up was something as well.
Edit to add. The pen contests are on a national level and bigger than any coyote calling contest and big money involved as well. The biggest hunt is held in Arkansas. My first running walker competed in the nationals for the five-day hunt but she got disqualified because she couldn't be caught up by end of the days hunt, so they just left her out there in the pen till morning and she was still running. Before the hunt could be started for that day, they had to catch her up and guess it took a little time but finally caught her. I bought her up about a month later and and used her to start my own line of running walkers. I had no issues selling pups off of her and have them placed all over the Midwest. I've had calls for some of her pups from guys as far south as Texas, as far east as Newyork and as far west as Hawaii. And one call from a guy in Finland. I don't advertise its mostly word of mouth passed on. With wife gone I been out of the loop for a while on breeding as I need help with raising of the pups, so I have not bred anything for a while and still get calls for puppies. My female is also gone but I have another female that puts out great pups as fast as the wind blows and also 3 sires to pass on genetics....
[ March 18, 2024, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
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posted March 18, 2024 07:09 AM
So ............. How big are these 'pens' ????? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 18, 2024 07:55 AM
A puppy pen for starting 8 month pups can be about 20-30 acres. Don't really need a big area for starting pups as it's just a couple at a time running or learning to run, as well as conditioning. Don't want to push puppies too hard at young age or they break down. also to be classified as a pup they have to be less than year old. They have a cutoff date from when they were whelped. they have different hunts according to age as well and the older the dogs usually the bigger the pen which can be 80 acres or more depending on where you go. Some pens will also have a limit on how many dogs can run at one time in it and also will have a different number of coyotes running lose. Most of the pens depending on state require safe havens for the coyotes which consist of a fenced in area with electric fence and a controller sits there and turns power off when a coyote approaches, lets it pass into smaller pen then turns power back on to keep the dogs out. There are a few pens over a mile square in few places in the south. Some places also have what they call an outside hunt where coyotes and dogs can go where they like and then judges set up at key locations for scoring, in some of those hunts they also allow the chasing of deer because dogs are also used to run deer in some S-E states like Virgina and dogs be scored as well for running a deer. You go little farther west from there and north then dogs cannot run deer and also the type of dog many don't want in their breeding.
Take the Midwest for example only coyotes and fox are run, and no one wants a dog that has genetics in it to run deer, so we stay away from that type of breeding.
Genetics is a major part of dog breeding and even horses and livestock can be included. There are certain traits you want in a dog and traits you don't want and if a blood line is missing one of the traits or little weak then by breeding to a dog with a stronger trait can improve your line/cross.
Today many of the house dogs have the hunting traits bred out of them, they are just a lap dog and nothing more. and if one wanted to put those traits back into a breed it would take a long time to breed it back in.
An example of improving a trait in a cross. My first female was basically a fox hound type of running walker that would run fox or coyotes and then bay them up and keep them there for the hound's man to arrive. She lacked grit/fight but did improve when I hunted her with a grittier dog, she had to be shown what she can or cannot do because they don't learn that from running in a pen since catch/kill not allowed.
Knowing this I then made a cross with very similar traits but the dog I bred her to also carried more grit in its genes and in return I got pups with more grit than the mother and gritty enough they could kill their own coyote if they tried to or had to. You want dogs with more brains than you find a smarter cross to breed into what you got, want more bark then do likewise with that, want to add more speed or nose then find another dog that has more speed or better nose. You get a bad litter by chance then you cull it and don't pass the trash on to someone else.
Some may think I'm just tooting my own horn. But way I see it I earned the right. No one here taught me anything about dogs or running coyotes with them and I had no one to mentor me at home. I started from scratch and went from there till I had my own line of Running walkers. I have a good friend in southern Iowa he did help me with few things like how to read a pedigree and pointed in few directions I could go with my breeding, and he helped with medical issue I came across over the years and how to treat them. He never once just picked out a dog to make a cross to, that had to be my final choice. Same can be said for calling coyotes.
[ March 18, 2024, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted March 18, 2024 11:58 AM
....and the rest is history!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 18, 2024 12:24 PM
how was cabbage? i could smell it way up here.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted March 18, 2024 04:51 PM
Yes, Thanks for asking!
It was memorable! One of the best dinners in a few years. I pigged out, wished I had bought a much bigger brisket! Instead of the so called "flat cut" I got the one called I think, Tip? I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but it was really good! And I used the little Gold potatoes for the first time instead of Russet and they actually held together better. Everything was just great!
I just wish I had plenty left over for Ruben sandwiches! My daughter sent me a 1 pound can of Coleman's mustard! That aught to last me a while!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: yes the cabbage was also quite good, I ate much more than normal. I'm usually indifferent to the cabbage but this time is was great, carrots, just right, I had some celery swimming around in the pot, too! No complaints whatsoever!
Oh, the bread got too soggy, I should have bought a hand crafted loaf for sopping up the juice but made due with what I had on hand.
[ March 18, 2024, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
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posted March 18, 2024 05:45 PM
I'm trying to wrap my head around maintaining a fence around an area that big that a coyote couldn't escape from.
Leonard; If you don't have a vacuum sealer, do yourself a favor and look into one. Double up on the cooked portions and seal / freeze half for later. Seriously, I resisted one as unnecessary 'til the dumb light came on. Wouldn't be without one now.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Semp
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posted March 19, 2024 07:10 AM
quote:
Some may think I'm just tooting my own horn.
I enjoy reading your posts about hunting coyotes with dogs. I've learned a fair bit about the subject from them.
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Always remember: That court appointed psychiatrist is not your friend.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 19, 2024 08:56 AM
Koko most coyote pens use a 6-10' Wolven wire fence with one or two strands of electric fence along the bottom and down south they don't have to deal with deep snow to bother the fence so not much maintenance required. Up north the snow can be a issue so the pens are not as big up here and also not many pens around. A utility tractor and brush mower is used to cut the brush and weeds along the fence to create a path and then more paths are cut throughout the pen. Judges then set up along these paths and the dogs are scored when they bring a coyote across the path. Path can be 10-15 feet wide and any trees with branches over hanging the path are trimmed so not to block a judge's view. Koko coyotes do get out of pen once in a while they just add another to take its place not much of big deal. When coyotes are brought to a pen they are given the needed shots to keep them healthy and also fed on daily basis and there will be a few places with water supply as well.
Thanks, Semp.
Lance always talked about how his dad ran greyhounds or stags and is a different game compared to running walkers. With stags its more of a blood lust game with chest pounding and just killing with no style whatsoever. The hunters even run the coyotes down with a truck till they burn the edge off a coyote and then dump the dogs so they can catch it quickly. Stags/grey hounds short on endurance so they can't run a coyote all day like a running walker. Stags do one thing and that's kill a coyote quick as it can and at times it's not real pretty to look at its kind of like a feeding frenzy. I don't care for it much.
With running walkers there are many different ways they are hunted, some just like the stags just want to catch and kill coyotes and also don't care how bad it looks. "Blood lust"
some just use the dogs to chase the coyote around the woods and then post up and wait for them to come buy then the hunter takes a shot. quick and humane. Some run the coyotes and wait for a bay up then walk in and shoot the coyote with a pistol. (way I hunt)
And then you have the run to catch group where the dogs do all the work right down to the kill, some do it with some sort of style and others just a bloody mess. I also run to catch from time to time and my dogs do it with style, like a mongoose killing a snake. one dog distracts others help keep it bayed and then one dog will slip in when it has a chance and grabs the windpipe and it's all over shortly with very little blood.
The good thing about being able to run dogs in a area is you can get rid of some of those call shy coyotes if any still around, so you have fresh ears the next year. Trappers can also help clean up a few as well. Traps have to be checked every day which is downside plus bad weather can screw up some sets. Dogs can be run any time night or day and year-round except for august and July and only downside is wind.
Tony Tebbe had vid.s out years ago showing how he trained his decoy dogs. He would trap a coyote and duct tape its muzzle shut and then toss it in a small pen about size of a dog kennel and then put one or two dogs in there to fight the coyote. Coyote was defenseless plus the dogs never learned what end to stay away from, but they sure learned on their first trip out in the field with a coyote that could fight back. stupidest thing I ever seen. With good breeding you don't have to do much of that it comes naturally if the dog also has a few brains to start with. Running dogs can be just like calling, you can be sloppy about it and kill a few or do it with some sort of style and kill many. LOL
I had a few ride Along's last year and two this year. Two of the ride a long's kind of sat on middle of the fence about hunting coyotes with dogs, they had that blood lust picture in their heads of a pack of dogs just tearing a coyote in pieces. They got a good look at how I did it and they were impressed with end results. Even had a young lady and 3 of her kids ride along to see how it all worked out. She was impressed on how well my dogs handled and how I got them going when I let them out of the box. She thought the dogs would just be running all over the place confused or what have you.
I just step out of the truck and let dogs out of the box and then point in direction I want them to hunt and then it all falls into place.
This year I took Nephew along to help me find a cripple from night before, turned out I just hit coyote at the ankle. I put dogs on the track, and they had it up in short time and then had a little chase then coyote bayed up in wooden corn crib.
I had nephew walk in with my pistol and a handheld Garmin and he found the dogs and the coyote in corn crib. He walked into corn crib little nervous, but the dogs protected him and did their job as well and had the coyote down and just about out. He called me on his phone and told me what was going on, and I told him get his pistol out and then say, "Dogs back" and when they out of line of fire just take a finish shot and then tell dogs to get'em. Get em is reward time for all the dogs, they each take turns wooling the coyote by grabbing it with their mouth and just shake or pull-on dead coyote, no damage to coyotes hide as they don't bite it very hard. Nephew said it was really something to see how the dogs worked together like a basketball team and how well they listened when told something.
I have a small fenced in exercise yard for the dogs and had the nephew over and he ask why the dogs behave like they are when playing around? One dog running around and rest just chasing it and then a dog makes a gentle grab at the dog's throat, and it falls to the ground and lays on its back in a submissive position. Mean time other dog still holding it by throat and the others just come in and stand on top. Soon the dog lets go of the other dog's throat and then the chase is on after a different dog in my pack.
What they are doing is practicing the chase/hunt it all comes natural to them, I didn't have to teach or show them this, it's in their genetics. Too bad many of the new and up and coming callers didn't have the same genetics, if they did there be fewer coyotes around and no need for coyote calling forums. LOL
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted March 19, 2024 08:57 AM
Yes, but take some of the theories with a grain of salt. Some of the valuable traits in one dog, if not actual physical, I doubt can be bred into a litter, like grit.
I tried breeding a love of beautiful women into my daughter, but she turned out to be more attracted to men. Go figger?
ko ko, I have been pondering a vacuum sealer for some time. I'm convinced it would be an advantage.
Also, you are quite right about keeping coyotes within a bulletproof little pasture, let alone of the size mentioned. I know a secret government facility with armed security and really good stout fencing and yet, I know exactly where coyotes have dug their way in, especially since it contains a small evaporative pond for something to do with the building conditioning. Anyway, I think coyotes wanted inside just for curiosity, but come to think about it, there are ground squirrels in that can't be kept out, and why would anybody try, anyway? So, containing coyotes in any fenced property seems like a difficult task, short of keeping them on a leash and oh yeah, imbedding the chainlink in concrete would pose significant problems, for any coyote wanting to escape; it might be easier to grow wings?
And, a coyote proof fence would be expensive, I bet. It would be better to explain policy and count on the coyote's ability to reason and thus cooperate!
IDK?
Good hunting. El bee
edit: well, when it comes to electrified fencing, I believe I saw state of the art in Africa, to keep the wild men out of white farmer and rancher property. In fact, they had a black that spent considerable time, daily, just clipping grass from shorting out the voltage. Only monkeys ever got inside the perimeter, since there were tall trees in a few places, and once inside they didn't seem able to figure how to get out, or they just didn't want to get out. But, yeah, supply enough voltage and it keeps out everything except the bravest baboon. I was told that they would get up the courage and run full blast at the wire, knowing they were going to get zapped real good but it was worth it if they revived and then feasted on ripe crops like grapes or melons.But that's it, baboons had enough mental capacity to understand risk and benefit, and I think a coyote might be capable of something like that.
Higgins told me about observing a coyote along the Salt river canal that had a den at the base of a tree and the male and female would take turns entering the water and holding on to the steel ladder steps, cool off for several minutes then return to the den and the female would do the exact same thing in the same spot, this occurring in the heat of the day. Come to think of it, that's probably most of the day. Down in that area, it was not worth the effort to try any calling after about 9:30 A.M. and until almost sundown.
[ March 19, 2024, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 19, 2024 09:55 AM
quote:
Yes, but take some of the theories with a grain of salt. Some of the valuable traits in one dog, if not actual physical, I doubt can be bred into a litter, like grit.
Leonard you can breed any trait you want into a dog and it's not a theory. First off, a dog must have the traits you want and same applies to the one you breed to. In a litter the traits will be passed on but will or can run two directions. They say pups will get 50/50 or 60/40 of male and female traits depending also on who has a stronger gene or traits.
And keep in mind if both dogs that are bred have a trait that's not considered good it will come back as x2. Say you have a donor female that's little too gritty and tends to fight with some dogs and same for the male you breed to. will that trait is going to come back in the pups x2 and you just going to end up with bunch of mean ass pups and hole litter will need to be culled.
My last litter i made I bred to a small female that was fast as the wind, she always ran up front of the pack, had pretty good nose and handled well and some brains. I checked on some of her litter mates and found two of them was in top five in pen hunts with one staying at the top of the game and winning most of the hunts. Her only trait she was weak at was endurance and not having a loud enough bark.
The male I bred to was a leggy dog who ran like the wind, very gritty and could hunt five days without being put up for rest, good nose as well as some smarts and handled well plus many more good traits that you look for.
When the pups was finally born the female pups had the same outside traits as the mother and tuff to tell some apart from her, color, marks same or close to it. The male pups turned out just like the father, but each also had what's called a blanket back of one solid color on back. Beautifull dogs.
The male pups were leggy with a longer body frame for jumping fences and flat out running and so on.
As far as bark many was like the father and nice and loud and some took the mothers trait and more of a squeaky type of bark but they were also small like mother so that was sort of expected.
As for all the other good traits I got them in both males and female pups plus a little extra.
All my pups went to hunting homes and are being hunted and I check in with new owners to see how they are doing from time to time. Hell, I even have two of the female pups running black bears which they was not really bred for but they did have what was needed to do the job. Those two pups only have to bad traits and that's the high squeak bark like the mother and they don't tree like a hound dog but will still stay at the tree. Treeing is not a running dog's trait nor bred for it. The tree dogs play catch up when this guy runs bear due to the difference in how both breeds run a track. Tree dog huffs each track. Running dogs huff a track but lift their heads higher as they go and as the scent increases and when they catch up to bear, they then run eyes on, a tree dog will not lift its head and if a bear just jumped to one side off a track the stupid tree dogs would just run by it.
Your Tilly comes from good blood lines so take and breed her to another blue tick that's never been hunted or have parents that never hunted, and I know what you will get before the pups even hit the ground.
Cattle and racehorse are bred same way, you want a certain trait you breed to it and if you want a good one you breed to a good one that has same good genetics in its line, and you get another good one and on it goes.
Also as far as fenced in running pen a trench is plowed where you plan to put up the fence and then part of the fence is tucked down in that trench and then covered up to prevent dig outs. Thing is if one is smart enough to get out then they just put in another to replace it, not a big deal. The fence is checked for dig outs as well and just fix them.
A pen I ran my dogs in a few years back had five coyotes in the pen and they stayed there all season. Plenty of food and water and exercise and I think coyotes enjoy being chased around. I have 3 that come up to my kennel once a week and sure they just want the dogs to come out and play. LOL
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
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posted March 19, 2024 10:28 AM
Somewhere in my old vhs tape collection is video of a coyote running parallel to a six foot high chainlink fence, then up the side of it like the motorcycle in that Wheel of Death, then perch on top like a big hairy vulture for a moment, then hop off on the other side.
It's something to see. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 19, 2024 10:31 AM
When you run dogs in a pen you have to pay for that and costs around 8-12.00 per dog but also depends on where you go. Each state has a few pens and that's where the hound guys flock to go train a pup or condition it for outside running. This cost pays for the fence and care of the coyotes and also replacement cost of a coyote if you lose one.
The pen I ran in had a waiting list and then you chose a time, like morning till noon, noon till dark or all-night running. I had a 3-hour drive to the pen as well.
As for Higgy's coyotes yep that's learned behavior. but nothing you can bank on.
As for calling in the heat that's debatable.
I spent one year going out and calling different areas and times due to all the stuff you read on the coyote forums like a coyote won't come to call cause it's not hungry, too hot, too much pressure and list goes on. So, I had to find out for myself of whats what. Made a trip to S.D one time the ranchers out there had a rainstorm during winter and cattle slipped and fell and died from injuries, so I had plenty of food around for the coyotes. I located a bunch of dead cows and looked them over to see if coyotes were feeding on any and if they were, I would set up and call off the cow to see if I could bring coyotes in with a full stomach. I did this off and on all winter with dead cattle and deer it didn't seem to make a difference with the coyotes with a full belly they still come in to check the caller out to see who there, or to chase them off or what have you. So that myth was debunked. I also tried different moon phases, weather patterns and even called in light rain or snow and found you just have to be where coyotes are and can hear you.
I made a summer trip to S.D. to try out the heat and temp. thing, you know being too hot. I spent the day in 104 temp.s and called all day and killed enough coyotes to say otherwise but it may be different in other parts of the country so who knows for sure.
Night calling here not much to say just have to be out there and where they are. Just seeing 4 or more coyotes in a night told me enough and answered all my questions on matter.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 19, 2024 10:36 AM
Koko when I was down to friend's place that had a barn full of coyotes, I watched some of them climb a barn wall 6-10 feet high and then perch on a rafter.
Some of my dogs can climb a chain-link fence and some can't, some can jump a 4' fence, and some can't. and those that can't either run one direction or other and look for a gate or where fence is broken, or some just plow right under it.
Had one of my young males he decided to plow through a barb wire fence and caught one of the barbs on his front shoulder and cut him about 4"long. You looked at it, it was about the same size and opening as a T-shirt pocket and I could put a pack of smokes inside the flap.
[ March 19, 2024, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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