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Author
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Topic: A dog's nose?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2020 12:30 PM
Well, if you've come this far, here's his page 3. Somewhere in the middle, you are sure to start thinking about JohnHenry's solution when he starts talking about pit bulls that can't keep up, etc. Anyway, go ahead and pick it apart if it pleases you. Also, I'm going to try and organize it for him a little bit because he doesn't know what a paragraph is. lol
Page 3. LOL
Gonna hit on Leonards posts and see if I can answer or clear up some things about hounds as to why and why not. (hounds have there place so not picking on them)
So which one has the better nose coyote or hound? From what I have seen with my own eyes over the years calling coyotes, running coyotes with dogs and just hunt/stalking them there senses are pretty well rounded. You throw weather conditions into the picture like wind, humidity and temperature a coyote can't smell any better than a dog as anyone of the things mentioned can shut down a coyotes nose or limit it to as to how far or how much it can pick up and then what it does smell it has to figure out what its going to do about it. What it smells is it a threat to them or something of interest?
A coyote that's been coming up to your yard picking through the garbage or eating out of the dogs dish over time neither one well be a threat to them as food is involved and food is very powerful. That's just one example and a lot depends on what a coyote does throughout its life to determine how its going to react around people or other animals for that matter and what ever its been introduced to like a human firing a gun at it and so on.
Dogs behave the same way and that's how we condition them to do things that we want them to do, but its up to the dog weather or not it has the right breeding or temperament to do these things or brains.
Example your Shepard class dogs are very smart and can make good decoy dogs but on the same hand they not built to handle a coyote one on one and a coyote will kill them when they have a chance. Some hunters will cross a Shepard class dog to something a little more gritty, mainly adding the brains to a more gritty dog that has less of them. LOL
A dogs nose? There are hot nosed dogs, cold nosed dogs and very cold nosed and if you make a cross there is no guarantee you will have what you looking for in same litter of pups as you may end up with just one or two with the nose you looking for. A lot has to do with the dogs genes from both parents and the scenting ability or nose you looking for has to be dominate in both parents. Ok how much nose do we need to run down coyotes? A cold nose dog is preferred and one that has the brains to use it, sometime we wish for a colder nose but this can slow down the tracking as the dog will be huffing each track it finds but also depends on scenting conditions.
Hounds tend to huff tracks and why some hunters don't use them to hunt coyotes as it takes up a lot of time and just gives a jumped coyote a bigger lead. Hounds shine in the big woods when used to run coyotes to a shooter as all the hunter wants the dog to do is just keep the coyote moving around till a gunner gets a shot on it or it tires the coyote out and gets a bay up. Most hounds are not real aggressive at a bay up, they just circle around the coyote and try to keep it from running off till a hunter arrives, there will be a lot of barking and some ass grabbing and this is where a dog can get bite or worse hurt depending on temperament of the coyote. A coyote may also turn on one of the dogs and give it one hell of a ass whooping if the dog fails to fight back and go for the front and grab the throat. Guess we could do like the Hog hunters and throw in a pit-bull cross into the game and do the job of killing a coyote as they good at that and have plenty of grit along with jaw muscles.
Thing is a pit-cross cannot keep up with the hounds and lacks in tracking ability as they was bred more as a fighting dog and not much of a hunter and if one was used for the killing it would have to be walked in or hauled in to each bay up. Most hunters prefer to just give the coyote a quick bullet and end it right there rather than feed a dog with limited use.
Coyotes are shy, timid creatures in most cases and most will only bite a dog if the dog is trying to bite it in the first place, if dogs hold there place at a bay up a coyote will just sit there with its ass tucked in against an object like a tree or some thick brush that keeps a dog from grabbing it in the ass. Some hunters will live catch a few coyotes for the puppy pens and will use a catch pole to hold one and a few guys I know will just walk up to the coyote and grab it by the back of the neck and then the coyote just relaxes just like when you grab a kitty cat by the same spot.
A group of hunters I use to hunt with still use hound dogs to get there coyotes up and then run it to a shooter and the hounds are very good at it just not meant for catching and killing and the dogs owner will see a few Vet bills every season. Every now and then I or someone else will come across an older grittier coyote just full of fight and some guys have the dog or dogs that can handle one but it costs them in the end. I have a simple rule I go by when I walk into a bay up, if the coyote is still alive when I get there and its just in a bad spot for the dogs to work it I may try to get the coyote to move away from that spot or just pull the pistol out and command the dogs back and then just shoot it and be done with it.
My Pred. rifles just sit in a gun cabinet and see no use sept for a Savage AR chambered in 224 Valkrie that accounts for a few coyotes every year. Now days its about the dogs more than anything and not kill numbers.
Hearing ability? I would have to give that to a coyote due to how its ears are shaped and how it uses them but there may be a few dogs that hear just as well or perhaps better. Hounds have long floppy ears so they may not hear as well as a dog with small ears that stand up. Reason for the floppy ears is to help the hound pick up scent or to funnel it in to there nose and keep some of the wind/air current to a minimum. An Italian breed has ears about a foot long in length and one heck of a track running dog with some good speed but those ears wouldn't last long for my application. LOL
Coyotes also depend on there eyes a lot and always on the look out more than anything and would give them credit here for having the better eye site and knowing how to use it to an advantage. Hound dogs have a one track mind and they run with there nose close to the ground or right on a track and pay no attention to what's in front of them. Seen a pair of hounds just run right on by a standing coyote that made a sharp turn to the left no more than 30-40 yards away in the open and the dogs just kept running the track till it hooked back to the left and then just continued on like nothing happen. Running Walkers are bred to use there nose down on the ground like a hound when tracking is tough and as the scent heats up the dogs head also goes up and continue to run heads up till they have site of the coyote then there heads go a little farther up or what I call leveled off and now the dog kicks in another gear and running strictly eyes and this is what gives the Running walker more speed and the edge over other breeds of dogs. The Running walker is bred to do it all as far as fox and coyotes go.
(the whisperer welcomes comments)
Don't be shy!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 27, 2020 02:21 PM
Is there a Cliff Notes version of that ???
Driving down the Hwy today & saw little brown dogs in the center line. One got clipped, one ran off into the desert and one is now sleeping on my couch. Cute little mutt.
Gonna have some 'splaining to do when my wife gets home.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7582 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2020 06:21 PM
You old softy!
edit: this is what the little boys do. They tell Mom, he just followed me home!
[ May 27, 2020, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177
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posted May 28, 2020 03:18 AM
Few years back we were into hounds.
Had a Walker female who was smart and used on the trapline. We could use her on coyotes until bobcat season. Start telling her cats Misty cats. That dog would turn off the coyotes and only do cats.
Had one Redbone and he looked pretty. Was a solid lock down on the tree dog. Usually had to drag him off the tree.
Then got a Redtick out of southern Utah. She was a good one. Couldn't ledge her up. She was short legged but never gave up.
So having been around hounds knew of the Running Walkers and the all the nose types that dogs can have.
Have gotten into Kemmer Stock Mtn curs and now have a Black Mouth Cur. He was suppose to be around 35lbs. Somewhere in his back ground there is a large dog. He's pushing 70lbs and thinks he's a lap dog. Very smart and fast. Gritty and won't take shit off of anything or anyone.
Enjoy most dogs and breeds except Labs. Don't know why it is and I know they are good dogs but I can't stand Labs or GSPs.
Oh well, good write up the dogs.
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another long hot smoky summer coming
Posts: 1105 | From: Intermountain region | Registered: Jul 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 28, 2020 05:43 PM
My female was a Redbone. Best dog I ever had. Until now, of course! But, Tillie has some big shoes to fill.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted May 29, 2020 03:40 AM
Worst dog I ever had was a beautiful tri colored Walker I was in calif at the time and had 475 acres
twenty in citrus an most of the rest just native this asshole got more phone calls than I did one day a guy called telling what a beautiful dog came to his house I said you like him he's yours ! His name is Blue !
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted June 03, 2020 12:15 PM
A little embarrassing. Second time some neighbor has brought Tillie back on a leash. The little bitch doesn’t seem to know where home is. I told her what happened to Blue!
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted June 04, 2020 10:47 AM
Coyotes are incredible animals. An uncanny ability to survive and thrive. I have a lot of respect for coyotes.
My experience with dogs and coyotes says a good hounds nose is better. By how much I don't know. Some of the other breeds I have tried I would say are close. Most dogs have far better noses than we give them credit for. They just don't want to use it...
using a dog to kill coyotes is not really the reason I use a dog. I am not very particular anymore if a dog will jump on them or not. However they better dam well stick to that coyote and prevent them from leaving. Its true the dogs that engage eventually get beat up and bitten. Vet bills, well I do most everything short of surgery myself. I have stapled and sewn up dogs for bad cuts and bites and doctor all my snake bites.
Few dogs have the grit to engage a coyote and kill it. Most don't have the propensity for that kind of pain. I've only owned one dog that could kill a coyote on his own.
I have owned several that readily engage a coyote and would take repeatedly getting bitten. They just didn't have the ass to get the job finished.
I have also had dogs that after getting bit never went after the sharp end again. Enjoyed the game but had no desire for pain.
In the end you need to know what it is you need out of a dog. Find the dog that works for your system.
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 05, 2020 01:32 PM
Very good input, Brent!
Especially this: "Most dogs have far better noses than we give them credit for. They just don't want to use it..."
and this:
"In the end you need to know what it is you need out of a dog. Find the dog that works for your system."
And now a question: I know what Victor thinks of sitting a stand with JohnHenry's Airedales. But apparently, JH thought his pack would make short work of a coyote, even a big male. Whether he had a specific dog that would wade in there and sort things out, I don't know?
So, the question is: did you ever see any of what he claimed, and either way, what's your opinion, Airedales as coyote killers?
edit: another question about snakebites; the dogs that got bit, did they, afterwards, learn to avoid a snake or give wide berth?
edit: also, if Don inherited JH's dogs, then what, after Don Died? I don't assume his wife was up to it?
[ June 05, 2020, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted June 09, 2020 08:16 AM
OK Leonard,
Now realize these are just my thoughts and impressions. About J-H and Victor. Victor never did get to see the dog Mickey turned into. He saw her at the beginning learning the game before the was all this internet help. Mickey was the best dam decoy dog I ever saw. Nothing has ever even came close. Mickey wasn't my dog and I miss that dam girl. Sweetheart of a personality and the evilest god dam dog when it came to coyotes I ever saw.
As far as a dog killing a coyote by itself I only ever saw one. That was Max, a few people around here know who the Maxell is and he needs no introduction. His reputation precedes him. He was around 80 lbs of fuck you. A high pain tolerance, no style of class just a brawler with no quit.
I have owned a few Airedale myself and the good ones are far a few between. I feel the breeds been ruined and why I have walked away from them. I owned a female Lilly. Dam good dog, decoyed, denned ok and was a very faithful companion.
I'm running cur or cur/terrier crosses now. Have a Jagdt. terrier I use denning, good dogs and a cur Jagdt cross. Do they have the ass to kill a coyote? No, but my two little bitches have enough ass and heart to keep a coyote in place.
JH still has his Airdales I guess, don't know don't care really. The only dog he ever possessed that impressed me was Mickey. Don didn't care for Airedales. His last was half Airedale and half Jagdt. terrier.
Snakebites I treated with Benadryl and also a shot of DEX. Rest cool dark area and water no food for a day. I have never lost a big dog to a snake bite. Small dogs yes. I don't think their body has enough mass to absorb the venom. I personally don't believe in snake bite shots. See to many little dogs that die anyways.
Do the give them a wide birth? Nope none of mine have. After that first bite they kill every dam one they run into. Hounds, Airedales, cross dogs all of them. After that its personal and they wont let it be.
Brent
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 09, 2020 03:07 PM
That's what I wanted to know!
quote:
Do the give them a wide birth? Nope none of mine have. After that first bite they kill every dam one they run into. Hounds, Airedales, cross dogs all of them. After that its personal and they wont let it be.
Also, I've spent a little bit of time down in your area. I think I've seen more Mojave's than Western Diamondbacks and they say they have a different venom not hemoglobin, but Neurological or something? Can you say which one you think is more serious/potent, or do you subscribe to the big snake, big dose theory?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: when you say "Benadryl" do you mean as a topical application? You don't feed it to the dog, do you? What's DEX?
[ June 09, 2020, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted June 10, 2020 05:56 AM
You know Leonard, at least in my observation, and Ive been in McNeal for over 50 years, the ratio of Mojaves to western diamondback is about 8 to 1. I maybe cross 1 or 2 big western diamondbacks a year, the rest are mojave rattlers.
Like Brent, I just give my dog Benadryl, I use the pill, and thats several, not just one, depends on the size of the dog, but lots of folks like the liquid, depends on how fast you get to the dog after the bite. To late after the bite, they might not want to eat anything and the pill is harder to get in their system, so the liquid is probably the better solution?
Ive had a lot of dogs over 50 years there, and never once have lost one to a snake bite, even had a few cats pull thru just fine.
[ June 10, 2020, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1629 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2020 07:21 AM
Interesting! You know, A couple months ago, Tillie got into something, and her tongue swelled up like you wouldn't believe! I mean her tongue is normally narrow and very long but it was fat and thick and hard and stuck out the sides of her cheeks and she was in a lot of distress. I took her to a 24 hour Veterinary hospital, and they treated her for about an hour while I social distanced waiting in the car. When they brought her out, and got my hundred bucks, they said to give her Benadryl tablets, which I did, crushed, in hamburger. Whatever it was, it went away?
You know, I'm a lot more familiar with the western side of Arizona. I've never seen a Mojave over there, say, west of Sasabee? But I've seen some big snakes, and I would call anything over 4 foot as a big snake but some are 5 ft. Western Diamondbacks and mostly Pacific Rattlers, which are sort of pink or salmon color. It's also the most common rattlesnake in southern California. With a few Mojave's in the desert areas. But, also Diamondbacks, let's say in the mountains.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted June 10, 2020 08:28 AM
With Benadryl I carry the pills in my vehicle and pack if a dog gets hit in the field. However I do prefer the liquid better.
DEX or dexamethasone is something I inject into my dogs once I have them home to help fight the snake bite.
I know this has worked for me in the past and currently know of no better solution for a snake bite for dogs.
Brent
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2020 11:15 AM
Well, all I got to say is, these politically correct types that think we need a certain number of wolves, lions and Grizzly's and poisonous snakes can kiss my ass. Lions have been stalking humans for years, ever since they gained protection. The idea that we need rattlesnakes to keep down a rodent population that poses no threat to humans, or damned little, if any, is bullshit.
Anyway, I'm not a big fan of poisonous snakes, but I'm just as likely to leave them be, as mess with them, if they seem aggressive. But, I'm a big fan of King snakes and Boas, so my hard on is with rattlers. I fail to comprehend the cosmic scheme of nature's creatures, as it applies to rattlesnakes.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted June 23, 2020 07:23 AM
I dont know what time of year Tilie got the big tongue But one of mine picked up a desert toad bingo huge tongue and hallucinations he was out of it for a while.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 23, 2020 08:38 AM
I have no idea how or why that happened? Just got up in the morning and she was fussing but glad to see me. Normally, her tongue has to be at least 8" long and narrow. Her sides of her muzzle hang over making her snout look kinda "boxy". As opposed to pointy.
But getting back to that morning, she was pretty upset, couldn't even close her mouth properly, and her tongue stuck out the sides and I'd guess that tongue was close to 4 inches wide and thick and HARD! And, she was drooling, but that could have been because she was upset?
So, I started worrying that she could swell up and block her breathing so it was early and I called a 24 hour animal hospital rather than the Vet that did her spaying who wanders into the office around eightish.
Whatever they did at the hospital, I don't know but it did involve some sort of injection and they told me to buy Benedryl tablets and feed them to her which I did and she was looking pretty normal by midafternoon?
Anyway, It was very concerning and I still have not a clue what might have caused it? I gave her some left over chinese food, don't even remember what it was right now but something I did find out very recently. Last week, she snuck a lizard into the kennel with her the night before. She spends all day chasing lizards, but I didn't realize she had been catching any? This one was day old ripe, and I took it away. But whatever she got into, I don't know?
One other thing. She got into something a couple weeks ago that caused some ulcers around her head and ears. Caused the hair to fall out and it's mostly regrown now, but I think it was a milky sap from an aloe or cactus? God knows I have plenty around here, and she's a digger, BTW.
That's it, in a nutshell!
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
[ June 23, 2020, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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