The New Huntmastersbbs!: A dog's nose?

This is topic A dog's nose? in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2020, 08:28 AM:

I have been thinking about this for a while now. Ever since I got this pup. Tillie turned one year old, last week and she's as green as they come.

Anyway, I am wondering about ability. Can a dog, maybe one of a breed that is used for trailing, can we judge their nose along with a coyote? It's hard to understate, or underestimate the ability of a coyote. They do everything well. For that matter, can a hound run down a coyote? Maybe one built like Tillie could? She has that deep Greyhound type chest and she just naturally runs like a damned deer!

Also, as a scent hound, can she detect smells as faint as can a coyote? Again, the bar is set pretty doggone high, because the coyote is such a versatile animal, does many things well.

I don't know? I always sort of judged a dog by it's ability to pull scent out of the air with it's head up instead of running with it's nose skimming the ground. Tillie does tend to stick her nose into something, but I also notice that she can smell peanut butter as soon as the jar is opened, no matter where she is.

So, where does a dog stack up against a coyote, one on one? Is the coyote faster? is their nose more keen? Is their hearing more acute? Can the average hound whip a coyote, one on one?

What say you?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: I just happened to think, we have an x member, "he who shall not be named" who does monitor this site, and is sure to have an opinion. Mainly because that's what he does, is run coyotes, mainly with his dogs. As I understand, he enjoys the dogs hunting the coyotes and doesn't make a lot of stands any more, so he might have an opinion worth considering. As for the rest of us, jump in here and give us the benefit of your half baked theories, it costs you nothing.

[ May 22, 2020, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 22, 2020, 10:10 AM:

$0.02 worth. Anything a domestic dog can do, a coyote can do better.
Exceptions to the rule, yes, but over-all ......

Hi " [Smile]

Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on May 22, 2020, 04:00 PM:

A greyhound can catch coyotes.
Don't believe a hound can unless it's a rare lightly built hound.
On an overall a coyotes nose is better give or take a little except for a blood hound.
You know it all depends on the dog and it's grit how the dog has been trained and conditioned. Coyotes are use to fighting to make a living. Dogs are very domesticated.

Coyotes 2
Dogs 1

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2020, 08:04 AM:

Yes, forgot about chasing coyotes with Greyhounds! But, really, except for her ears holding her back, Tillie is no slouch, I believe she could catch a coyote. What she would do with him once she caught him, I'm not sure if she has the grit that fighting for her life provides?

Now, ko ko says " [Smile]

" anything a coyote can do....let me start over; anything a dog can do, a coyote can do better. Well, okay, that covers a lot of Brittany's and German Shepards, but I think there might be a lot of coonhounds that can run down a coyote. Everybody, including me thinks a coyote can run five miles without breaking a sweat. If a hound was in training, I believe she could keep up if not grab Mr Coyote by the scruff within the first 1/2 mile.

I know the professional dog trainers for DEA have these little bottles of scent. They immobilize a dog, (somehow) and cover their head and wave one of these bottles under his/her nose. The dog that still reacts to bottle #5 are the ones they train to detect at the border. And, they are hard to fool. So, I imagine, there are a lot of rejects, it takes an exceptional nose to work in that drug detection business.

Of course, I also heard that they cheat on those dogs, they are all deliberately drug addicts, and this is what they focus on. I heard this from a friend that used to hunt down in Baja, and some of the things he said were more than a little scary.

Hearing? Who's to say? I'm pretty sure that I have called coyotes that were at least a couple miles away, depending on wind currents, etc. The factor that is difficult to quantify is the ultrahigh frequency's. I dabbled with that stuff years ago and never reached firm conclusions as to worth. But, sitting a stand and playing frequencies that only a dog or a coyote could hear does not mean that the animal is interested....yeah, he hears it but so what? He probably won't respond. The closest you can come is to get recordings of voles maybe being terrorized by a cat, not killed, as a cat is sometimes guilty of.

Anyway, a damned coyote is hard to beat, but can a dog keep up? That's what puzzles me.

Who else?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 23, 2020, 10:24 AM:

Wish Brent would chime in on this one, he has probably seen more dog/coyote interaction than anyone I know. He has had some that would shake a coyote to death like a rag doll, and others that were fine coyote dogs, just timid in the fighting with one. I'd think a hounds nose was better than a coyotes, but that's just logic, being the nose is bigger meaning more receptors possibly? I'd Hazard hearing and eyesight to be damned similar?

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 23, 2020, 10:35 AM:

Actually, I was saying 'Hi' to he who's name shalt not be spoken.

My point about coyotes is that, yes, a breed of domestic dog might have a better nose and another breed of domestic dog might have better legs and still another breed might be a better fighter but over-all the coyote is the complete package. Add intelligence and adaptability and the coyote wins by a wide margin.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2020, 01:45 PM:

Yeah, well, I wouldn't casually go that far, ko ko. Yes, because of selective breeding we have fast dogs and dogs with a keen nose, and we have pit bulls, for which I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel. We have Rhodes Scholars dogs. I know for a fact that my mom and dad's toy poodle could pull a specific toy from her box, as asked, and never make a mistake, and she had 100 toys. You try that one some time when you get to thinking your dog is pretty smart with commands.

Now, maybe we have Super coyotes? I am inclined to think I have run in to a few, over the years. But, most of them are pretty average.

As far as what Victor said, I don't have much experience with coyote dogs, but I have seen HOG DOGS work, and you know, hogs are supposed to be very intelligent. But, I have watched a small pack of dogs ranging from Jack Russell's to Pit Bulls and plain old mutts that you couldn't even guess their heritage. And boy, they sure knew how to flush hogs out of the manzanita! And, they knew enough to check the hogs to provide a shot for the hunter. In other words, they were pretty well trained....or they just came by it naturally. But nobody messed with the Jack Russel when he curled up in the prime location on the spare tire.

Anyway, I think a pack of dogs has teamwork that a pack of coyotes lack, I mean more than a pair would, hunting a critter, and yes they do do that. Not the same.

Still, I cannot argue with the argument that a coyote is tough to beat in any given category. They are survivors, pure and simple. And far from worrying about extinction, in the last 50/60 years, they have expanded their range in every direction while being pursued relentlessly. See, that's grit. Gotta hand it to them. But dogs have pretty well established their presence as well!

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 24, 2020, 04:02 AM:

A coyote can out run your Tillie on any day why on earth would you want your dog to fight a coyote that's just stupid ! vet bills for the price of a pelt some dogs are employed as coyote fighters the handler knows the risk ! I'm sure Brent will tell you the last thing he wants is contact, you have a hound go find some coons!

Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on May 24, 2020, 06:15 AM:

quote:
My point about coyotes is that, yes, a breed of domestic dog might have a better nose and another breed of domestic dog might have better legs and still another breed might be a better fighter but over-all the coyote is the complete package. Add intelligence and adaptability and the coyote wins by a wide margin.

I think Koko nailed it here.

I grew up around grey hounds. I have a brother and a cousin that still run grey hounds. My dad also had an airplane that we got to watch many a race from over the years. Some of the things that I witnessed a coyote do to elude the grey hounds was pretty amazing.
It would take one hell of a good fighting grey hound to kill a coyote one on one. These days the grey hounds are big, like 80 pounds big, mostly because of the stag hound being bred into them. They can sure enough hold a coyote down but getting it killed, that's a tall order for a single dog.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2020, 08:25 AM:

Paul, there you go again! I wouldn't do any of this shit, I'm just asking a rhetorical question! You don't have to bite my head off!

But, matter of fact, I was just telling Tillie yesterday, (she is gorgeous and knows it)
Then I mentioned that we've been talking online and I wondered just how tough a nut she could be, at 55 pounds, dripping wet. Stacked up against an average 28 pound coyote, I sorta think she would have her ass handed to her.

Some people treat dogs differently. For many of us they become members of the family. My granddaughter would like to have Tillie come visit her for a few days. Other people keep them in a kennel and treat them with as much indifference as that neighbor down the block. You know what I mean? Dogs belong outside, on the one hand, and they sleep with you, on the other. I've already spent a couple grand on this pup, and some people might not even get the shots they need. There is plenty of cruelty to dogs and some of these people shouldn't own one, in my opinion.

A hound has more utility than running a raccoon up a tree. Let's say west of the big river, I see more hounds chasing cats and bears than coons.

Anyway, I think the question is just for comparative thinking. How can we accurately determine if a dog has a superior nose? So, that's when considered opinion comes in. Maybe one day they will count up all those olfactories that Vic mentioned , slice and dice and proclaim which nose weighs more, therefore can smell very faint odors a lot better than another critter.

I already know my pup is faster than a coyote, when she wants to. She's just built more like a cheetah than a warthog. A warthog, by the way, I've killed a couple, and they run pretty damned fast! They also are pretty hard to kill, like most African game, they run off like you missed, and drop dead a quarter mile away, good luck finding them! But where were we?

I don't think we mentioned the intelligence angle? A coyote is pretty damned smart on average. Some dogs are dumb as a post. Tillie has not shown me, to this point, that she is the sharpest knife in the drawer. Maybe it's all latent. So far I haven't expected too much and she hasn't shown too much.

What else is there?

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 24, 2020, 08:51 AM:

Ok.............. Something else to consider;
How often have you known someone (probably city folk) who looks but just doesn't see stuff. Same with asking them if they hear or smell something. It's there and within their range of senses, but they're just not aware of their surroundings enough to notice until it's pointed out to them.

I think that, to a degree, even if a coyote and a domestic dog had equal senses, that the coyote would smell the rabbit and the domestic dog would hear the can opener.

I also think that 'somebody' is spoiling that mutt !!!

[Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2020, 12:43 PM:

I had to snort reading that charge!

edit: wait just a darned minute!
A MUTT, is she?
edit: I'll have you know, both her grandparents are Champions and her littermate has already won first place in a puppy division. She comes from pedigreed stock and I have the document listing 7 generations. She's no mutt!

edit: we all know who is world champ at hearing a can opener! Any CAT!

edit: PS she does NOT sleep with me! I'll have you know!

[ May 24, 2020, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 24, 2020, 02:35 PM:

[Big Grin]

Every dog's a mutt until I've petted it. Then it's my buddy.

Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on May 25, 2020, 03:23 AM:

My dog is a mutt. A little bit of several breeds.
But one of the better dogs we've owned.
He does sleep in the house in the winter (he has no hair or under fur to speak of) except he sheds for months though. Answer that one.
He sheds hair short little reddish hair.
One of the better built conformation dogs we've had. Run! he can hit a top speed of 21mph as a sprint.

Don't know how to post pictures but he's a looker with a natural bobbed tail.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2020, 08:08 AM:

I'm not really a dog breed snob. But, it does bother me that there are a lot of people that go out of their way to acquire some exotic breed. The lady behind me went to San Diego for her French Bulldog. Before that, she had that Chinese dog with the wrinkled face. (we've been neighbors for a long time)

But it seems everybody is trying to outdo the others with an Australian dog or a Purebred Labrador Retriever. German Shepards, English Bulldog, and French Poodle. German Shorthair Retrievers. Bernese Mountain Dog? St. Bernard? And all of those little dogs with Chinese names, designer dogs, I guess? All seem to be imported from somewhere, which adds to the mystic, I guess?

So, I'm on a one man Crusade. Just how many true recognized American originated breeds are there? Well, I can think of a Boston bulldog and I guess ugly, (and worthless) pit bulls are an American breed? Yes, there are a few that hardly anybody has heard of, Cur and a few dogs you see on ranches, can't think of their names right now?

But, how can you beat a coonhound for an American Original? My son said they are as common as fleas in North Carolina, but around here, nobody knows what they are looking at? What kind of dog is that? They have absolutely no clue! And yet, at the dog park, with all those exotic breeds running around, they all stop and stare at Tillie. And, they all ask. They know she's something, not a Mutt. Blue Tick doesn't show recognition in their face, sometimes, "coonhound" does, at least the word; but it doesn't conger up an image.

I think a coonhound makes a fine pet. Tillie doesn't have freakish looks, a snout that's pushed in, stubby legs like a weinerdog. No docked tail, no clipped ears like a Doberman. Just looks like a healthy dog!

What's not to like?

Good hunting. El Bee

[ May 25, 2020, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 25, 2020, 09:25 AM:

The dog that we have now is a pit / mutt mix. About 50#. She actually guards our patio cats against stray cats that wander thru then prances around quite proud of herself for running a strange cat off.
I tell people that she's a pedigreed Chihuahua Grande and usually get some comment like "Yeah, I've heard something about that breed."
People will believe anything, but hey, if o bama doesn't need a birth certificate then my dog doesn't need papers. [Big Grin]

Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on May 25, 2020, 09:29 AM:

You have the catalougha (sp?)
Kemmer Stock Mountain Cur
Black Mouth Cur which our dog Gus is mostly.
Have had 3 registered Kemmer Stock Mountain Curs(some the hardest headed dogs we've ever owned).

Queensland Blue Heelers
Australian Shepards.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2020, 11:23 AM:

Yeah, thanks! That's some I was thinking of. However, all those dogs are pretty casually bred and thee ain't much in the way of real standards. And some people seem particularly proud of diluting whatever breed they have with another questionable girlfriend from down the road. Pretty soon, they are kidding themselves about the history and background of their backyard breeding program. You never see them come up with a definitive "look" like a Rottweiler or even a German Shepard, or a Beagle.

For sure, nothing wrong with mutts. I'm one myself, Northern European with a Polish surname. And, I did get that Gold Medal at Club Med! I guess Americans could be described as Heinz 57. People in other countries do recognize Americans without opening their mouth. Selective breeding!

Good hunting.El Bee

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2020, 06:23 PM:

The Coyote Whisperer says:

For starters I'm gonna give few comments on what has already been said.
Vic is right to a point about the coyotes/ dogs nasal cavity and all the little smelling sensors they have per inch, longer the bridge of nose the more sensors, and also the dia. of each nostril/tube and the more there is the better they can smell. I read some of the same stuff when I did a search years back. Big question is if this is accurate then why can't a grey hound or stag hound smell its own ass as they have a longer nose than a coyote and many dogs/breeds? Take a coon hound for another example there nose is about same length as a coyote but larger in dia. tube so you would think they can also smell more than a coyote. I think what gives a coyote its edge is its hearing due to how its ears are shaped and how they can cock them in multiple directions at same time. (one ear forward and other to the side ect.) You can see this happen a lot on a bedded coyote.

Koko Coyotes are bred to do one thing and that's multiply and survive and dogs are bred different as well to do different things. problem is most of the hunt is bred out of them when they became house dogs/show dogs and lost the ability to do what they was bred to do.

Earth walker; Grey hounds are bred for speed and use of there eyes which they use to run down a jumped coyote. Grey hounds are short winded/stamina and have a very short time they can run so they need to get on a coyote soon as possible and catch it in less than a mile or the game is over for them and they don't have the nose to track one down that's why a coon hound or vehicle is used to jump a coyote and then bring it into site for the grey hounds to see then they are dumped out of the box. A grey hound stag cross are bred for speed, eyes and the ability to catch and kill any coyote it catches. Grey hounds are also meant for open ground type of hunting/running.

Koko; there is a breed of dog that has it all for hunting coyotes and then running them down and then killing them. They are called "Running walkers". The breed was started by George Washington which came from Blood hounds, American fox hounds, English fox hounds, grey hounds, whippets and few other breeds crossed in to make the perfect coyote/fox catching dog. The line was improved and then improved again and again over the years and still being improved or trying to keep the same valuable traits they have. They was bred for Nose, Brains, use of eyes and heads up running when needed, grit, handling ability in the field as well as at home in the kennel, bred to get along with other dogs as well as people and they can also make a good house pet if one wished to make a pet of one. You will see some variations in the breed from one cross or general area of the U.S. as everyone hunts a little different. Take the hunters in Wisc. for example they hunt mostly in the big woods and want the dogs to run a coyote to a shooter that is posted up, nose and brains is important here and they can't be afraid of a gun going off. Lots of speed is not needed just good tracking ability. Treeing walkers or other coon hounds work well for this also and from time to time they will catch up to a coyote as they dog it the coyote will grow tired and then turn to fight or just try to hide under a log or brush pile. Most cases its just a simple bay up and a dog handler will have to walk in and kill the coyote for the dogs. You may come across a few tree hounds from time to time that can kill a coyote but they need help doing so. Pack effort".

Paul like mentioned a tree dog can dog a coyote for hours and soon it will get tired and face the dogs so yes Tilli can catch one. My breeding of Running Walkers are bred to go another step forward. They are bred to jump, track, run a coyote and then catch it and kill it very quickly. The dogs jump a coyote they have the ability to run with there eyes like a stag hound which gives the dogs extra speed as they can run faster with there heads up than they can with heads/nose down to the ground. A tree dog only knows how to run with its nose on the ground, bad weather conditions is where a tree dog shines at times over a Running walker. Tree dogs in general are not fighting dogs but you may come across a few that will fight a coyote, just not very good at it and it can get messy, they work best for running to a gun and a simple bay up. As for a dog getting hurt I've had more wounds on a dog from fighting a coon than I have from fighting with coyotes. Only time a coyote can be a issue is if its in a culvert/pipe then a dog has to fight a coyote face to face. A smart bred dog with plenty of drive will over come this obstacle and kill a coyote very quickly.

TRnco; as for grey hounds yes a good throat dog can be hard to come by but there are many up to the job, some guys run 2-4 to help out with the catch. I run seven dogs that do it all sept only 4 of them are throat dogs and the rest just jump in and do there part to help so the throat dog can get a grab. Kind of like watching a Mongoose kill a snake or a group of them, its all team work.

My main catch dog does not bark on track till he jumps then he lights up. Some guys want there dogs to bark with every breath but I don't as I have good reason for it. A dog barks all the time the coyote hears it coming and will sneak off so then the dogs will have to spend a little time playing catch up and track the coyote down. Since my catch dog Uno doesn't bark much till after jump he has the extra edge, (smart dog) as of last season Uno caught five coyotes in there bed and killed them where they laid by himself. Year before he caught 3 in there beds and has assistance with one big male. The coyotes didn't smell, see or hear him coming. How fast is a coyote? I read they can run 40 mph. for how long or how far I don't know at that speed but they do get tired. When a coyote is being shot at or run by dogs they only run as fast as they need to stay ahead of danger. In other words I've seen them with the dog at dam near full throttle just a few tail lengths behind the coyote and then some chases never did see the coyote as it was balls to the walls. A chase will go as little as just a few yards up to one or two one mile sections then the coyote is caught or just stops running and bays up or the chase can go on for as much as 52-62 miles or better depending on the coyote. Mileage comes off the Garmin and think they go by dog miles what ever that is. LOL Every jump is different you never know how its going to go till after a half hour or so then you can pretty much figure out how it will end. A thing about coyote behavior is a female and pups from the summer will tend to stick to just a few sections and the male will run back to where it was born that's why some of the chases can go on for some time. The male will run back to where it was born and then hole up or try to hide somewhere like a pipe or brush pile. Some of the guys who run dogs and shoot know this and they will get way ahead of the coyote and wait for it to come across the road heading into the section it was born in. welp that's all for now hope you enjoyed it. will cover some coyote behavior and other dog breeds when I have the time. Snow-Walker kennels....

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2020, 10:23 AM:

Please quit pestering me concerning the identity of the above writer! I promised not to divulge his name. Because he's so well known, most of you will be able to guess who he is anyway.

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 26, 2020, 10:39 AM:

John Henry ????

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2020, 11:07 AM:

LOL

Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on May 26, 2020, 02:19 PM:

Knew some people who had a Russian wolf hound.
Like to scared us to death for the first time we drove into the ranch. He looked into the window of a 3/4ton truck.
He was the biggest wimp.
But his dad was one of the coyote killing-est dog they ever owned.

He who won't be named.
Only reason I said grey hounds and such it was the first fastest dog that came to mind. I know they need mostly clear ground and it's a short race.
You made all good points.

John Henry wouldn't lower himself to talk about anything other than Airedales.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2020, 09:13 PM:

Wow! That’s mighty perceptive!

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2020, 07:52 AM:

I know you fellas have been dying to get this chapter 2 info!

Yes, it's Tim Anderson in southern Minneesota. Seems to love his dogs.... as we all do. So, he can't be all bad? lol

Anyway, here's his thoughts and update about what makes a good coyote dog. Personally. I never heard of a "Running Walker" before, but that's what they are, no visual standards just behavior, apparently?

Timothy Anderson
To nbosin@aol.com

John hennery is back East and posts once in awhile on some of the pred. boards in Face book. Sherry Bentley another old member from N.Y. or Pen. has made a name for herself promoting women's hunting on the East coast. Me I'm just small potato's never really cared for all that lime light stuff. Pred. calling was getting expensive and too commercialized with land with locked gates starting to pop up and more and more calling contests taking place. S.D. has a contest almost every week all winter long for an example. I started my new adventure with just a Red-bone hound I got from the Humane society and she could put fear in most any coyote. I found out I needed a dog better built for the job and with a lot more speed if I wanted to get a lot of coyotes. I added a Running Walker female with a what they called a Royal pedigree, she had it all from some of the best dogs in the country as far as breeding goes. My Red bone had to be put down so I decided to just stick with Running walkers. With the help of a few friends and one who became my mentor I was able to breed my female to a male that was worthy and had some of the same genetics and a few pluses to help improve what I already had. I bred for a little extra in size, grit, brains and some speed.
As luck would have it only one pup was big in size and the rest of the litter just average so I kept the bigger pup which I named Uno and also kept a female and another male and the rest of the pups was sold to hunters in Iowa, S.D. and Wisc. I was still a little dog poor and only had one good dog but needed some help moving the pups along as far as hunting goes and to show them how to fight a coyote. I got lucky and my mentor broke his ankle and could not hunt all of his dogs so he asked If I would like to use one of his dogs to help get the pups going. I jumped on it and my mentor from Iowa drove up halfway to meet and give me the dog. My female pup drowned that winter in a creek fighting with a coyote, she had a lot of heart and grit and just didn't know how to let go. Both Male pups Uno and his brother Max caught and killed there first coyote at eight month's of age and I'm also forever grateful for my mentor helping me out. It was all down hill after that and I had my mentor there to help out with any medical issue I would have with the dogs. I got learned up real quick on what injuries I could treat and what ones would have to have a Vet take care of. Main thing was antibiotics and staples and a year later I learned to do most of my Vet work, really saves on the pocket book. Its all about the dogs and the dogs come first before anything else. I talked with the guys who bought the other pups off and on over the years and everyone was happy with the dogs they got, I even went so far as to try and buy some of them back as I was short. They all said no way. LOL
I was really getting the feel for this and spent about a year looking at Pedigrees and studying them and then passed on to my mentor to see what he thought and we found a male that we both cold agree on and found out the male was located in up north of me. I made contact with the stud dogs owner and agreed to have my female bred to his male and we also became good friends over the years till his passing.
This litter had more nose bred into it or same if you will and a little more grit and more brains. I kept two pups out of this litter, a black/tan male and a Liver/white female and sold the rest to hunters north of me. Wife helped raise both litters and a little disappointed that they left so fast. LOL I was asked to do a puppy hunt contest that summer and all of my pups that was born from this litter would be running in it as well. My Liver/white female injured a toe so she was out for most of the hunts but when he could run she was awesome. Other than her all the pups from my litter placed in the top ten all summer at each hunt and my pup Moe made it to 6th place in the state hunt and took 5th a week later at a Memorial hunt put on for my friend that passed away. I now have my foot in the door as far as my line of dogs go and have a growing list of hunters that would like a pup when ever I make a cross again. I have seven dogs total that I run/hunt with most are mine sept for two females, one is out of Nebraska and the other female which Leonard really likes is from Iowa, (Tina) she by the way can really fly and has no problem burning the hair off a coyote.
Even though the running walker is one breed there are many cross variations to them meant to do or improve different things or a different way of hunting and being able to hunt in different parts of the country, not every hunter hunts them the same way. Some guys just want to run puppies in the puppy hunts then sell them after or keep them and make a cross with them if they really shine and most of theses puppies are bred with as much speed as they can put into them along with a avr. nose but some brains as well. Then you have some dogs that are bred to do both, win puppy hunts and also hunt well on the outside of the pen. I breed for hunting outside of the pen and use a cross that's most suitable for hunting in the snow and cold temps. I also breed for a long hour type of dog and one that can be hunted everyday for 6-7 days before they need a rest which will take about 2-3 days to charge them back up. Oh they could go longer than that but the deal is they won't run as fast or hunt as hard.
Leonard mentioned dog breeds that have some sort of standard like color, size ect. The Running walkers come in many colors or mix of colors, some liver/white, black/tan, tan, redish brown, tri-color and tri color blanket back and so on. Most look just like a fox hound as that's where part of there breeding came from and has been carried on and improved.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2020, 12:30 PM:

Well, if you've come this far, here's his page 3. Somewhere in the middle, you are sure to start thinking about JohnHenry's solution when he starts talking about pit bulls that can't keep up, etc. Anyway, go ahead and pick it apart if it pleases you. Also, I'm going to try and organize it for him a little bit because he doesn't know what a paragraph is. lol

Page 3. LOL
Gonna hit on Leonards posts and see if I can answer or clear up some things about hounds as to why and why not. (hounds have there place so not picking on them)

So which one has the better nose coyote or hound? From what I have seen with my own eyes over the years calling coyotes, running coyotes with dogs and just hunt/stalking them there senses are pretty well rounded. You throw weather conditions into the picture like wind, humidity and temperature a coyote can't smell any better than a dog as anyone of the things mentioned can shut down a coyotes nose or limit it to as to how far or how much it can pick up and then what it does smell it has to figure out what its going to do about it. What it smells is it a threat to them or something of interest?

A coyote that's been coming up to your yard picking through the garbage or eating out of the dogs dish over time neither one well be a threat to them as food is involved and food is very powerful. That's just one example and a lot depends on what a coyote does throughout its life to determine how its going to react around people or other animals for that matter and what ever its been introduced to like a human firing a gun at it and so on.

Dogs behave the same way and that's how we condition them to do things that we want them to do, but its up to the dog weather or not it has the right breeding or temperament to do these things or brains.
Example your Shepard class dogs are very smart and can make good decoy dogs but on the same hand they not built to handle a coyote one on one and a coyote will kill them when they have a chance. Some hunters will cross a Shepard class dog to something a little more gritty, mainly adding the brains to a more gritty dog that has less of them. LOL

A dogs nose? There are hot nosed dogs, cold nosed dogs and very cold nosed and if you make a cross there is no guarantee you will have what you looking for in same litter of pups as you may end up with just one or two with the nose you looking for. A lot has to do with the dogs genes from both parents and the scenting ability or nose you looking for has to be dominate in both parents. Ok how much nose do we need to run down coyotes? A cold nose dog is preferred and one that has the brains to use it, sometime we wish for a colder nose but this can slow down the tracking as the dog will be huffing each track it finds but also depends on scenting conditions.

Hounds tend to huff tracks and why some hunters don't use them to hunt coyotes as it takes up a lot of time and just gives a jumped coyote a bigger lead. Hounds shine in the big woods when used to run coyotes to a shooter as all the hunter wants the dog to do is just keep the coyote moving around till a gunner gets a shot on it or it tires the coyote out and gets a bay up. Most hounds are not real aggressive at a bay up, they just circle around the coyote and try to keep it from running off till a hunter arrives, there will be a lot of barking and some ass grabbing and this is where a dog can get bite or worse hurt depending on temperament of the coyote. A coyote may also turn on one of the dogs and give it one hell of a ass whooping if the dog fails to fight back and go for the front and grab the throat. Guess we could do like the Hog hunters and throw in a pit-bull cross into the game and do the job of killing a coyote as they good at that and have plenty of grit along with jaw muscles.

Thing is a pit-cross cannot keep up with the hounds and lacks in tracking ability as they was bred more as a fighting dog and not much of a hunter and if one was used for the killing it would have to be walked in or hauled in to each bay up. Most hunters prefer to just give the coyote a quick bullet and end it right there rather than feed a dog with limited use.

Coyotes are shy, timid creatures in most cases and most will only bite a dog if the dog is trying to bite it in the first place, if dogs hold there place at a bay up a coyote will just sit there with its ass tucked in against an object like a tree or some thick brush that keeps a dog from grabbing it in the ass. Some hunters will live catch a few coyotes for the puppy pens and will use a catch pole to hold one and a few guys I know will just walk up to the coyote and grab it by the back of the neck and then the coyote just relaxes just like when you grab a kitty cat by the same spot.

A group of hunters I use to hunt with still use hound dogs to get there coyotes up and then run it to a shooter and the hounds are very good at it just not meant for catching and killing and the dogs owner will see a few Vet bills every season. Every now and then I or someone else will come across an older grittier coyote just full of fight and some guys have the dog or dogs that can handle one but it costs them in the end. I have a simple rule I go by when I walk into a bay up, if the coyote is still alive when I get there and its just in a bad spot for the dogs to work it I may try to get the coyote to move away from that spot or just pull the pistol out and command the dogs back and then just shoot it and be done with it.

My Pred. rifles just sit in a gun cabinet and see no use sept for a Savage AR chambered in 224 Valkrie that accounts for a few coyotes every year. Now days its about the dogs more than anything and not kill numbers.

Hearing ability? I would have to give that to a coyote due to how its ears are shaped and how it uses them but there may be a few dogs that hear just as well or perhaps better. Hounds have long floppy ears so they may not hear as well as a dog with small ears that stand up. Reason for the floppy ears is to help the hound pick up scent or to funnel it in to there nose and keep some of the wind/air current to a minimum. An Italian breed has ears about a foot long in length and one heck of a track running dog with some good speed but those ears wouldn't last long for my application. LOL

Coyotes also depend on there eyes a lot and always on the look out more than anything and would give them credit here for having the better eye site and knowing how to use it to an advantage. Hound dogs have a one track mind and they run with there nose close to the ground or right on a track and pay no attention to what's in front of them. Seen a pair of hounds just run right on by a standing coyote that made a sharp turn to the left no more than 30-40 yards away in the open and the dogs just kept running the track till it hooked back to the left and then just continued on like nothing happen. Running Walkers are bred to use there nose down on the ground like a hound when tracking is tough and as the scent heats up the dogs head also goes up and continue to run heads up till they have site of the coyote then there heads go a little farther up or what I call leveled off and now the dog kicks in another gear and running strictly eyes and this is what gives the Running walker more speed and the edge over other breeds of dogs. The Running walker is bred to do it all as far as fox and coyotes go.

(the whisperer welcomes comments)
Don't be shy!

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 27, 2020, 02:21 PM:

Is there a Cliff Notes version of that ???

Driving down the Hwy today & saw little brown dogs in the center line. One got clipped, one ran off into the desert and one is now sleeping on my couch. Cute little mutt.
Gonna have some 'splaining to do when my wife gets home.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2020, 06:21 PM:

You old softy!

edit: this is what the little boys do. They tell Mom, he just followed me home!

[ May 27, 2020, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on May 28, 2020, 03:18 AM:

Few years back we were into hounds.
Had a Walker female who was smart and used on the trapline. We could use her on coyotes until bobcat season. Start telling her cats Misty cats. That dog would turn off the coyotes and only do cats.

Had one Redbone and he looked pretty. Was a solid lock down on the tree dog. Usually had to drag him off the tree.

Then got a Redtick out of southern Utah. She was a good one. Couldn't ledge her up. She was short legged but never gave up.

So having been around hounds knew of the Running Walkers and the all the nose types that dogs can have.

Have gotten into Kemmer Stock Mtn curs and now have a Black Mouth Cur. He was suppose to be around 35lbs. Somewhere in his back ground there is a large dog. He's pushing 70lbs and thinks he's a lap dog. Very smart and fast. Gritty and won't take shit off of anything or anyone.

Enjoy most dogs and breeds except Labs. Don't know why it is and I know they are good dogs but I can't stand Labs or GSPs.

Oh well, good write up the dogs.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2020, 05:43 PM:

My female was a Redbone. Best dog I ever had. Until now, of course! But, Tillie has some big shoes to fill.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 29, 2020, 03:40 AM:

Worst dog I ever had was a beautiful tri colored Walker I was in calif at the time and had 475 acres
twenty in citrus an most of the rest just native this asshole got more phone calls than I did one day a guy called telling what a beautiful dog came to his house I said you like him he's yours ! His name is Blue !

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2020, 12:15 PM:

A little embarrassing. Second time some neighbor has brought Tillie back on a leash. The little bitch doesn’t seem to know where home is. I told her what happened to Blue!

Good hunting. El Bee 🐝

Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on June 04, 2020, 10:47 AM:

Coyotes are incredible animals. An uncanny ability to survive and thrive. I have a lot of respect for coyotes.

My experience with dogs and coyotes says a good hounds nose is better. By how much I don't know. Some of the other breeds I have tried I would say are close. Most dogs have far better noses than we give them credit for. They just don't want to use it...

using a dog to kill coyotes is not really the reason I use a dog. I am not very particular anymore if a dog will jump on them or not. However they better dam well stick to that coyote and prevent them from leaving. Its true the dogs that engage eventually get beat up and bitten. Vet bills, well I do most everything short of surgery myself. I have stapled and sewn up dogs for bad cuts and bites and doctor all my snake bites.

Few dogs have the grit to engage a coyote and kill it. Most don't have the propensity for that kind of pain. I've only owned one dog that could kill a coyote on his own.

I have owned several that readily engage a coyote and would take repeatedly getting bitten. They just didn't have the ass to get the job finished.

I have also had dogs that after getting bit never went after the sharp end again. Enjoyed the game but had no desire for pain.

In the end you need to know what it is you need out of a dog. Find the dog that works for your system.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 05, 2020, 01:32 PM:

Very good input, Brent!

Especially this: "Most dogs have far better noses than we give them credit for. They just don't want to use it..."

and this:

"In the end you need to know what it is you need out of a dog. Find the dog that works for your system."

And now a question: I know what Victor thinks of sitting a stand with JohnHenry's Airedales. But apparently, JH thought his pack would make short work of a coyote, even a big male. Whether he had a specific dog that would wade in there and sort things out, I don't know?

So, the question is: did you ever see any of what he claimed, and either way, what's your opinion, Airedales as coyote killers?

edit: another question about snakebites; the dogs that got bit, did they, afterwards, learn to avoid a snake or give wide berth?

edit: also, if Don inherited JH's dogs, then what, after Don Died? I don't assume his wife was up to it?

[ June 05, 2020, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on June 09, 2020, 08:16 AM:

OK Leonard,

Now realize these are just my thoughts and impressions. About J-H and Victor. Victor never did get to see the dog Mickey turned into. He saw her at the beginning learning the game before the was all this internet help. Mickey was the best dam decoy dog I ever saw. Nothing has ever even came close. Mickey wasn't my dog and I miss that dam girl. Sweetheart of a personality and the evilest god dam dog when it came to coyotes I ever saw.

As far as a dog killing a coyote by itself I only ever saw one. That was Max, a few people around here know who the Maxell is and he needs no introduction. His reputation precedes him. He was around 80 lbs of fuck you. A high pain tolerance, no style of class just a brawler with no quit.

I have owned a few Airedale myself and the good ones are far a few between. I feel the breeds been ruined and why I have walked away from them. I owned a female Lilly. Dam good dog, decoyed, denned ok and was a very faithful companion.

I'm running cur or cur/terrier crosses now. Have a Jagdt. terrier I use denning, good dogs and a cur Jagdt cross. Do they have the ass to kill a coyote? No, but my two little bitches have enough ass and heart to keep a coyote in place.

JH still has his Airdales I guess, don't know don't care really. The only dog he ever possessed that impressed me was Mickey. Don didn't care for Airedales. His last was half Airedale and half Jagdt. terrier.

Snakebites I treated with Benadryl and also a shot of DEX. Rest cool dark area and water no food for a day. I have never lost a big dog to a snake bite. Small dogs yes. I don't think their body has enough mass to absorb the venom. I personally don't believe in snake bite shots. See to many little dogs that die anyways.
Do the give them a wide birth? Nope none of mine have. After that first bite they kill every dam one they run into. Hounds, Airedales, cross dogs all of them. After that its personal and they wont let it be.

Brent

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2020, 03:07 PM:

That's what I wanted to know!

quote:
Do the give them a wide birth? Nope none of mine have. After that first bite they kill every dam one they run into. Hounds, Airedales, cross dogs all of them. After that its personal and they wont let it be.

Also, I've spent a little bit of time down in your area. I think I've seen more Mojave's than Western Diamondbacks and they say they have a different venom not hemoglobin, but Neurological or something? Can you say which one you think is more serious/potent, or do you subscribe to the big snake, big dose theory?

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: when you say "Benadryl" do you mean as a topical application? You don't feed it to the dog, do you? What's DEX?

[ June 09, 2020, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 10, 2020, 05:56 AM:

You know Leonard, at least in my observation, and Ive been in McNeal for over 50 years, the ratio of Mojaves to western diamondback is about 8 to 1. I maybe cross 1 or 2 big western diamondbacks a year, the rest are mojave rattlers.
Like Brent, I just give my dog Benadryl, I use the pill, and thats several, not just one, depends on the size of the dog, but lots of folks like the liquid, depends on how fast you get to the dog after the bite. To late after the bite, they might not want to eat anything and the pill is harder to get in their system, so the liquid is probably the better solution?
Ive had a lot of dogs over 50 years there, and never once have lost one to a snake bite, even had a few cats pull thru just fine.

[ June 10, 2020, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2020, 07:21 AM:

Interesting! You know, A couple months ago, Tillie got into something, and her tongue swelled up like you wouldn't believe! I mean her tongue is normally narrow and very long but it was fat and thick and hard and stuck out the sides of her cheeks and she was in a lot of distress. I took her to a 24 hour Veterinary hospital, and they treated her for about an hour while I social distanced waiting in the car. When they brought her out, and got my hundred bucks, they said to give her Benadryl tablets, which I did, crushed, in hamburger. Whatever it was, it went away?

You know, I'm a lot more familiar with the western side of Arizona. I've never seen a Mojave over there, say, west of Sasabee? But I've seen some big snakes, and I would call anything over 4 foot as a big snake but some are 5 ft. Western Diamondbacks and mostly Pacific Rattlers, which are sort of pink or salmon color. It's also the most common rattlesnake in southern California. With a few Mojave's in the desert areas. But, also Diamondbacks, let's say in the mountains.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on June 10, 2020, 08:28 AM:

With Benadryl I carry the pills in my vehicle and pack if a dog gets hit in the field. However I do prefer the liquid better.
DEX or dexamethasone is something I inject into my dogs once I have them home to help fight the snake bite.

I know this has worked for me in the past and currently know of no better solution for a snake bite for dogs.

Brent

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2020, 11:15 AM:

Well, all I got to say is, these politically correct types that think we need a certain number of wolves, lions and Grizzly's and poisonous snakes can kiss my ass. Lions have been stalking humans for years, ever since they gained protection. The idea that we need rattlesnakes to keep down a rodent population that poses no threat to humans, or damned little, if any, is bullshit.

Anyway, I'm not a big fan of poisonous snakes, but I'm just as likely to leave them be, as mess with them, if they seem aggressive. But, I'm a big fan of King snakes and Boas, so my hard on is with rattlers. I fail to comprehend the cosmic scheme of nature's creatures, as it applies to rattlesnakes.

Good hunting. El Bee

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on June 23, 2020, 07:23 AM:

I dont know what time of year Tilie got the big tongue But one of mine picked up a desert toad bingo huge tongue and hallucinations he was out of it for a while.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 23, 2020, 08:38 AM:

I have no idea how or why that happened? Just got up in the morning and she was fussing but glad to see me. Normally, her tongue has to be at least 8" long and narrow. Her sides of her muzzle hang over making her snout look kinda "boxy". As opposed to pointy.

But getting back to that morning, she was pretty upset, couldn't even close her mouth properly, and her tongue stuck out the sides and I'd guess that tongue was close to 4 inches wide and thick and HARD! And, she was drooling, but that could have been because she was upset?

So, I started worrying that she could swell up and block her breathing so it was early and I called a 24 hour animal hospital rather than the Vet that did her spaying who wanders into the office around eightish.

Whatever they did at the hospital, I don't know but it did involve some sort of injection and they told me to buy Benedryl tablets and feed them to her which I did and she was looking pretty normal by midafternoon?

Anyway, It was very concerning and I still have not a clue what might have caused it? I gave her some left over chinese food, don't even remember what it was right now but something I did find out very recently. Last week, she snuck a lizard into the kennel with her the night before. She spends all day chasing lizards, but I didn't realize she had been catching any? This one was day old ripe, and I took it away. But whatever she got into, I don't know?

One other thing. She got into something a couple weeks ago that caused some ulcers around her head and ears. Caused the hair to fall out and it's mostly regrown now, but I think it was a milky sap from an aloe or cactus? God knows I have plenty around here, and she's a digger, BTW.

That's it, in a nutshell!

[Razz]

Good hunting. El Bee

[ June 23, 2020, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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