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Author
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Topic: Two Alberta wolves with one shot
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knockemdown
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posted January 23, 2017 04:58 AM
D-name, that must have been some good times! I agree, you musta been part gazelle to keep on after a wolf pack on foot, in the snow!
I seem to recall reading about the story Leonard described. Could it have been an exerpt from the book about Frank Glaser, "Alaska's Wolf Man"?
As for DNA, I'm not 100% up to speed on genetic research, but it seems that studies have been done on samplings of 'eastern' coyotes. Here's one citing I found that provides genetic mapping in support wolf inter-breeding:
quote:
In 2014, a DNA study of northeastern coyotes showed them on average to be a hybrid of western coyote (62%), western wolf (14%), eastern wolf (13%), and domestic dog (11%) in their nuclear genome. The hybrid swarm extended into the midwestern United States, with Ohio coyotes shown on average to be a hybrid of western coyote (66%), western wolf (11%), eastern wolf (12%), and domestic dog (10%) in their nuclear genome. Coyotes and wolves first hybridized in the Great Lakes region, followed by a hybrid coyote expansion that created the largest mammalian hybrid zone known.
LINKY to entire read , if you care to bore yourself?
Here are two interesting sentences, snipped from the abstract in that link:
1. quote:
We found that eastern coyotes form an extensive hybrid swarm, with all our samples having varying levels of admixture.
I've seen this, personally. Some of the coyotes I kill look like really big coyotes. While others have a distinct 'wolfy' look to them.
2. quote:
Coyotes in areas of high deer density are genetically more wolf-like, suggesting that natural selection for wolf-like traits may result in local adaptation at a fine geographic scale.
I believe I've also experienced this, firsthand. We have TONS of deer up in NY cow country. Abd there are some coyotes I mess with here that seem so 'pack oriented'. Nothing scientific there, obviously. But based on having hunted across the country & calling coyotes in 12 different states (east & west), it is my opinion that these coyotes I hunt here at home are not your 'run of the mill' coyote...
Lots of factors can influence behavior, so I'm not throwing all the eggs in the DNA basket to explain that. Just sayin', something is a little different. Even how they howl is not the same. When my OK buddy heard a pack howl one night on stand here in NY, he leaned over to me and said "good gawd, what the fuck was THAT???"
It is what it is. All I really know for certain, is I sure like killing them!
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Leonard
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posted January 23, 2017 05:39 AM
Lonny, This is my recollection from a predator hunting book I bought at least 40 years ago. I can't even remember the authors name except it was a Polish name ending in "ski". I know I didn't throw it out but don't know where I might locate it, right now? Busy day today, but I might poke around later. I'm not sure I have the details as accurate as they could be, but the basic facts are related as true, not a bullshit story. In fact, I didn't do the account justice.
Good hunting. El Bee
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Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
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posted January 23, 2017 05:59 AM
quote:
Lots of factors can influence behavior, so I'm not throwing all the eggs in the DNA basket to explain that. Just sayin', something is a little different. Even how they howl is not the same. When my OK buddy heard a pack howl one night on stand here in NY, he leaned over to me and said "good gawd, what the fuck was THAT???" Fred from New Yawk
I probably said the same thing the first time I heard a couple JACKALS, at night, in Africa. And, do not think those canines are vasty different from coyotes. They just sound different.
I'm always a little skeptical when I read that stuff about exact percentages of DNA, 14.2% wolf, 11.6% domestic dog, etc. etc.
As far as I am concerned, it reads exactly like GLOBAL WARMING statistics; and that ain't good. As I have repeated a hundred times in these discussions; "FACT, the housefly shares 95% of our human DNA". Near as I can tell, wolf/coyote DNA research closely resembles the GLOBAL WARMING "hockey stick" data in believability. These "scientists" only have themselves to blame, and they are prone to censoring and condemning anybody that disagrees with them.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
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posted January 23, 2017 06:32 AM
It's not just genetics, Leonard.
Beyond all the DNA stuff, some studies have done compared skull measurements & found NE coyotes to be more 'wolf-like' than 'coyote-like'.
Which goes back to my attempt to compare photos, earlier. I can just look at the head of a coyote and see how they differ...
Here's another good/boring read on coyote hybridization in the NE
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Leonard
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posted January 23, 2017 07:26 AM
Fred, you have finally penetrated my cerebral cortex. See, that is the same thing as I said about how I had to come to terms with what is called a: COYDOG. The features were so jarring and obvious, I was forced to consider some type of hybrid.
The part I reject is counting the friggin' DNA beans and prognosticating....which makes a "scientist" more better that a layman who is just observing. I'm objecting to the whole scientific authoritarian expertise. I think they are guessing like the rest of us, but they have a multi million dollar grant that will keep them in staples until tenure blossoms.
Short answer; do not believe the "scientific verdict" as revealed scripture. Your guess is as good as mine, and then some.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
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posted January 23, 2017 11:19 AM
What I find most intriguing is how this new DNA mapping stuff would appear to corroborate what I've deduced & learned from others, over the years...
Heck, I remember having a conversation ~15-18yrs ago, with an old hound hunter who ran coyotes in our AO. I started pickin' his brain about the local coyotes, how they acted, the different colors & sizes he encountered, & whatnot. Anyhoo, he was of the opinion that the NY coyotes he ran with his hounds had varying degrees of wolf blood in them. He also allowed that these 'wolfy' coyotes came down from Canada, after interbreeding with wolves along their expansion eastward, north of the Great Lakes...
Fast forward to circa 2010, and the studies I linked above, seem to support that very same explanation! If you took the time to read them, you'd note that the eastward expansion of (western) coyotes across Indiana & into Ohio, seem to lack that 'wolfy' genetic makeup. Whereas, the (wolfy) Northeastern coyotes have become an animal, unto their own. And more localized yet, seem to have assumed more 'wolfy' attributes, based on abundance of large prey (deer), terrain/woods, and human interaction...
Just sayin', I'm not just taking those scientific studies as gospel truth. What I am saying is that, based on my experiences, some conclusions drawn in the aforementioned studies make pretty damn good sense. Heck, some of the old locals upstate in NY might tell ya that we have two different animals altogether! Some are coyotes and others are "brush wolves"...
So as not too romanticize them too much, I'll concede that, for intents & purposes, our NY coyotes are just coyotes. But, on the other hand, they sure ain't the same mesquite bean pickin' , grasshoppper eatin' desert dogs you're used to killing on the western edge of 'Murica.
They just ain't...
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Lonny
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posted January 23, 2017 04:25 PM
Leonard, Thanks for the info. If you do find it I'd love to know the title or the guys name. I love reading that stuff.
I think it was already mentioned, but 'Alaska's Wolfman' about the life of Frank Glaser is a really good read about hunting wolves back in the day.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 23, 2017 05:03 PM
New England or Atlanta?
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Displayed Name
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posted January 25, 2017 02:15 PM
Lonny and knockemdown, yes I was probably in some of the best shape of my life. Even for a smoker. We did use radios and I was always yelling to allow the hunters to realize where I was and to keep the wolves moving. Tracker took no weapon. Too much extra weight. We'd usually have 40-50 hunters a season and shoot from 10-30 a year. A lot of it had to do if you had fresh snow or not. My first year there was 27 days in Jan with no snow, let's just say it was stressful.
When the snow was often and deep wolves were shot. Tracking was ten times easier and in deep deep snow you can make time on wolves as they can only travel on old paths or they will be breaking trail.
Learned an awful lot about tracking and animal tendencies when pushed and when wounded. Old large wolves would always bust out of the block quite quick where a young 70lb wolf would make you do circles for 8 hrs trying to get it out. Best place to non fatally wound a wolf, the front paw. Twice I've caught up to a wounded wolf with just a busted paw where a wolf missing a leg will go forever. Caught up to a concussed wolf after tracking him for three hours after he was shot. Totally not fatal just grazed his cheekbone. Was a very weird track because there was next to no blood and foot prints were very close together.
I hardly even coyote hunt now just busier with family and work. Coyotes will always be there tho.
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Leonard
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posted January 25, 2017 03:51 PM
That's funny. A bobcat is the same way about a wounded paw although I'm not sure if it matters, front or rear?
quote:
Old large wolves would always bust out of the block quite quick where a young 70lb wolf would make you do circles for 8 hrs trying to get it out.
Do you think you could explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand what an old wolf is doing, what does bust out of the block mean?
Also, 70 lb. doing circles for 8 hrs, trying to "get out"? I don't understand that, either?
Very interested in wolf behavior, whatever you can expand on would be appreciated. TY
Good hunting. El Bee
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posted January 25, 2017 06:39 PM
I mean the areas we hunted all had boundaries. It might be a river , a lake, a creek, power line, pipe line, a wood cut, trail , road , trails made by us etc. From the air you would not be able to see a distinguishable shape of a block but they were. We would place hunters at probable escape routes for the wolf to jump the boundary. That was the hunters chance.
I meant the large mature wolves would leave the block usually very quickly (under an hour). I believe the mature males left before the female too. The younger wolves would not leave and circle and circle for hours and may never leave. Makes sense I was a lot quicker and energetic at 155lbs than 200lbs.
We rarely hunted large packs as we hunted the same areas year after year. I'm sure he's taken 500 wolves by now. Majority of the time I was pushing one or two with max of 6. Called in 7 once it was a memory I'll always have.
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Locohead
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posted January 25, 2017 08:59 PM
Thank you for the request for clarification Leonard; I really enjoyed reading the resulting explanation by Displayed. Really great reading and interesting stuff!!
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Lonny
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posted January 25, 2017 09:15 PM
Displayed,
Good stuff thanks for sharing.
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Displayed Name
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posted January 29, 2017 08:32 AM
No problem
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Locohead
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posted January 29, 2017 06:41 PM
Displayed, any lion stories? How about one of your favorite wolf stories? Anyone ever threatened, hurt, or bit by the wolves? We like stories.
I'll bet you have a tale or twelve!! Come on man, share!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
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knockemdown
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posted January 30, 2017 05:04 AM
D-name, what you described is essentially the same way houndsmen run our coyotes in NY. Once a coyote is 'jumped' by either the dogs or a tracker, the experienced "smart" ones will light out across the country, and sometimes go for miles. Just like a savvy coyote out west in 'greyhound country' will hit the first patch of cover and LAY DOWN so the sighthounds lose track of it!
Other coyotes (back here) will begin circling in a 'block' of woods. That 'block' can be 40 acres, or 2,040 acres. Or bigger, yet.
When the snow gets deep, a circling coyote will literally run a loop back into its own backtrail, and just keep going round & round. And they'll conserve their energy and only go as fast as they need to keep a gap between them and the hound(s). Those are the ones that the shooters love, as they move into the 'block' to get in a spot to intercept the coyote on the next loop 'round. Shotguns with buckshot, or 22mag/.17HMRs are the tool of choice. Killing them outright is the idea, but they only really need to slow that coyote down enough for the dogs to catch & bay it up. Then, either the dogs finish it, or the gun does...
Some guys seem to enjoy having 'gritty' dogs, while others just wanting their hounds to stay on the coyote til they can shoot it. In actuality, its just a more exciting version of rabbit hunting with beagles! Just that the rabbit can be a 50+ lb. coyote! Guys who favor hounds that finish what they start seem to run in areas where they may not have permission on all of the land their dogs run. But, since our game laws allow for the legal retrieval of hunting dogs on private land, they can still go into PRIVATE LAND (un-armed) and retrieve their hounds. If the coyote is already stretched when they get there, then no laws were broken. Kind of a gray area, but that's how things roll, here...
YES, would like to read some wolf stories, too!
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Displayed Name
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posted February 04, 2017 12:36 PM
I'll try to respond a bit just have a phone so writing and rereading posts is harder than old computer.
Y
No lion stories I never saw a track the 6 years I was there. They are not native to Ontario but there are some. I did see mid winter black bear tracks that must have been awakened due to logging.
There are many many crazy stories from wolf hunting and they all kind of melted together over the years as we hunted probably 5 to 600 wolves in that time and successfully retrieving 103 of them. We lost a few my first couple years but once we got good gps with local logging maps loaded we pretty much got every single wolf we put a bullet in. We tracked a wounded wolf a day and a half after it was shot once. And we got it. I'll see if I can remember all the details and write a story later.
I've never been attacked or threatened but there were a few scary moments. Another tracker did see a wolf he was tracking and it was close and not wounded. The tracker climbed a tree for an hour.
I did have a wounded wolf jump across the back of my snowshoes on day two of a retrieval. I had lifted it that am after tracking about 400 yds in from where it was shot. It took off like lightning. Blood dried up and it got into heavily heavily tracked up woods from the previous day. I tried a few tracks but nothing was looking good. I was about to give up when I found a drop of blood the size of a ink drop. Took that track and it opened up into a tiny clearing. Track was going straight through it. I seen another drop of blood and got on radio saying I thought I had the wolf again. Just the. Heard an explosion and looked back as the wolf was leaping across the back of my snowshoes going past me, I almost shit and missed him in some alders with buckshot. I still don't know exactly what happened but I assume it walked through clearing circled it and was bedded up at the edge of it in my right.
I tracked a wounded wolf once for a few hours and finally in some heavily tracked up woulds found him as he was walking away from me. I shot yhe 115 lb wolf at 10 yds in the butt with buck shot. The old 12 gauge fell apart and landed in the snow in three pieces. The wolf then got back up and gave me the most intense stare and walked away. That was scary.
Knockemdown- we had a lot of hunters say it was like hunting with hounds or a multi-person drive but this was more of a controlled push. I would not start yelling untill I found where I had lifted a wolf out of his bed. Giving me the greatest chance to stay as close to him during the push. On average I guess I would be no less than 300 yds away from the wolf as I pushed it. I'm sure at times we would have shot more wolves if I started yelling right away but I hated the idea of it. I loved finding the wolf and being able to stay in the track.
I remember sometimes where a circling wolf had jumped my snowshoe track up to 15 times. The first two to three times they approached my track they would always bounce off it hard but after that they would cross my track and I've even seen them take my tracks in deep snow if I had them tired.
We run hounds here too for coyotes. Walkers probably won't finish anything, plotts likely will. My hunting partner has a German short hair pup that is as game as it gets already in coyotes. Fought a few this first season(he's under a year) and took a 47lb male coyote down by the throat.
I have two plott hounds but life got busy and never hunted them but they turned a coon into deli meat when they were pups. Wish I still had the Garmin Alpha I had for them. Right now I'm basically just feeding and caring for them. Which is sad for dogs that want to hunt.
[ February 04, 2017, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Displayed Name ]
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Leonard
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posted February 04, 2017 04:05 PM
There was a time that I trudged after a coyote that was hit, he was fussing, but stationary. I had a break open single shot shotgun, that belonged to my partner. As I got close to him in snow that was over a foot deep, he noticed me and started running. But, not very well and I was actually gaining on him and he knew it.
I let fly with the shotgun, hit him in the ass and he turned and came at me. I only had that one shell and found out later that I had picked up a #6shot instead of the 00Buck I thought I had.
He was coming at me and I had no choice but to swing that shotgun like a baseball bat, back and forth, lacing himin the teeth, until the stock broke, and then It was like I was pounding railroad stakes. I didn't bother bringing the shotgun back, just left it, but when I finally got back to the truck, I was exhausted. I threw him off my shoulder and even though his eyes were bugged out, he was still breathing and I considered myself lucky that he didn't bite me in the ass! That was one tough coyote!
Then, hours later, I found the 00buck load in my other pocket! That shotgun was a POS, a raffle prize and wasn't worth more than $25. Still Pat acted a little peeved, and so was I because he could have shot the damned coyote for me instead of just watching the chase. So, I said: well, you know where it is. Chino Valley.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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posted February 05, 2017 02:14 PM
Haha that's a good one too I have no idea what I would have done if that wolf came back at me but it was thick like a bear. It walked off and when I went to look for it 15 minutes later I found it dead. Put it across my shoulders and took it out for the hunter. I also left two parts of the shotgun in the woods because I was pissed off at my boss. Told me he paid 25 for it later.
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