This is topic Two Alberta wolves with one shot in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2017, 07:29 PM:
This guy has the patience to line up two wolves in one shot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3NgsVEI1Lg
~SH~
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 13, 2017, 07:31 PM:
This guy did a lot of things right. He used google maps to find a spot that was open enough to allow a set up like this. Very smart!
~SH~
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 13, 2017, 08:41 PM:
I saw that video a year or so back and had to watch it again. I really like the guys personality. He is an easy watch. It sounds like he had to put in some years and lots of effort to make some kills.
Here is another video of his that he made a month or so later at the same spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu_QdcKTWZI
He needs a knockemdown tripod rest!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2017, 04:34 PM:
You know, I've made two trips to Saskatchewan after wolves. Came so close! Both times. One time I saw a nice black one, but we decided to try and head him off by circling around. Never saw him again, he actually might have been hiding?
The other time, it was at night and we were howling and they responded so close, it was a little unnerving. Since there was a full moon and huge snow cover, the whole pack would have stood out easily, but we decided to come back in the morning and call them.
Next morning, right where we were by the side of the road, huge tracks, urine squirts all over and a turd the size of a plantain banana. And, it was full of deer hair, in fact it was a nice over all tan color. The tracks were unbelievable! More like the size of a steer. A couple were smaller, but there could have been 5 or 6 animals, total.
We called all over the place that morning but no dice. I feel pretty sure that they came in after we left, all we would have had to do was hunker down and wait for 'em.
Two trips, zip, except for a few coyotes. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
It's hard to believe when easterners talk about interbreeding coyotes with wolves. You can't even consider wolves doing anything with a coyote besides killing them. Does not compute.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ January 14, 2017, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 16, 2017, 06:32 AM:
Yep, cool vids! I'd seen them before, too...worth another watch!
Leonard, the supposed interbreeding of eastern coyotes & 'wolves' was likely with the red wolf:
...not those big azz gray wolves.
One thing I know for sure, our NY coyotes make a habit of howling back on stand, then waiting a looooong time before investigating...
Case in point, weekend prior with my OK bud. We made a stand @ first light, sat for almost an hour. I had my SBE, watching an old road crossing out of a real thick patch, buddy was watching treeline of the creek...quartering downwind. Nothing doing after nearly an hour, so we went back to the house, gobbled down some bacon & eggs, then headed out again...
Later that day, my farmer friend stopped in. Told me he saw two coyote cross that same old road, not an hour after we broke the stand! From what he described, they'd have crossed 40yds from where I was covering with the 12ga. ONly problem, they decided to show up about 90 minutes too late! Son of a bitch...
As a matter of course, my coyotes sure make a habit of taking their sweet azz time to come to a call. Dunno for certain if that is them acting upon a 'wolfy' part of their DNA, or not, but that kinda shit happens enough for it not to be a coincidence...
[ January 16, 2017, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2017, 07:54 AM:
Yes, I know about that claim, Fred. It's actually somewhat believable if you can ignore the logistics.
I actually killed two Red Wolves down in west Texas back in the early 70's. I didn't really know what they were, at the time, except they were a little different. And, I mean just a little different, but still noticeable. It dawned on me later, when I found out there was such a thing.
It's like the so called, "coydogs", I'm telling you, I did not believe in such a thing for at least 20 years. Then, I killed one and then killed another one and there was no other explanation, they weren't dogs and they sure as hell weren't normal coyotes. I don't remember the time span but this was probably 15 years ago and (who knows) maybe 13 years ago on the second one that really go me thinking.
As far as "interbreeding" red wolves and coyotes, I really think that's a stretch because they are so similar. I can't see how that would account for 50 pound coyotes? Mainly because red wolves aren't even that big. Anyway, that's my opinion.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 16, 2017, 08:03 AM:
Very nice video well done great preparation amazing to watch it happen. Thanks for posting Scott.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 16, 2017, 08:12 AM:
I've been back & forth on the whole 'coywolf' 'coydog' thing. But, I'd sooner believe that red wolves & coyotes interbred, than some Heinz 57 farm-pooch did...
Info on Red Wolf:
quote:
Size: The red wolf is of an intermediate size between a gray wolf and a coyote. They are about 4 feet long and stand about 26 inches at the shoulder. Red wolves weigh anywhere between 45-80 pounds, with males averaging about 60 pounds and females about 50 pounds.
For comparison, a pic from my trail cam, back in September:
IMHO, not much of a stretch to think that there's something 'fishy' going on back this way, cuz I ain't never seen no western coyote look like dat!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2017, 02:32 PM:
Well, everybody has their opinions but I never thought red wolves would get up to 80 pounds? As far as the coloration, that first pic of yours is perhaps one of the distinctions but at the time, I thought they looked a little like a Collie, the ones that are tricolored, not just fawn and cream colored. But, as coyotes are generally gray, these critters from long ago were more brownish. Lots of coyotes are more brown than gray.
I remember a coyote I killed in southern Arizona one time. This was in the Sahuaro belt and they were pretty thick. But I watched this animal streaking in from quite a ways out there and because he was in and out of these huge cactus, I was positive that this was a red fox coming to the call. Very orange looking, but uniform, not a little this and a little of that One of the most unusual coyotes I have ever seen. Average size, but I never thought red wolf, he/it was just a very red coyote. Funny though, in talking about it right now, I suppose it could be, because the color was such a bright rusty orange/red, exactly like a red fox.
Those Texas animals were both killed at night so just shining a spotlight on em, but come morning, we didn't pay much attention to them. I could have been a lot more inquisitive but lack of sleep, etc. I was past giving a shit.
I think my point is, that I don't really see how red wolves could produce eastern coyotes. The color don't seem right, for one thing.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on January 16, 2017, 04:35 PM:
Cool video, I guided for timber wolves for 6 seasons so this kinda took me back.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 16, 2017, 05:53 PM:
Displayed,
How did you hunt for wolves when you guided? I mean what tactics did you use and such? What type of the success rate did your outfit get?
Sounds interesting for sure, but I can imagine it could be very challenging.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 17, 2017, 04:40 AM:
quote:
I think my point is, that I don't really see how red wolves could produce eastern coyotes. The color don't seem right, for one thing.
I think that the reason red wolves are nearly extinct is specifically because they've interbred with coyotes.
Here's another 'red wolf' photo, from a zoo
And another, from a facility in Florida:
So, you're telling me, that you're not seeing any resemblance to this 'eastern' coyote?
Search back for some of those excellent pics that Dave & Randy shared of their (western) coyotes. They look more along the lines of this:
Are you not seeing a resemblance between the red wold & eastern coyote?
Are you not seeing the difference between the two flavors of coyote, west & east ?
[ January 17, 2017, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 17, 2017, 06:12 AM:
I don't get your point, but what do I know?
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 17, 2017, 07:42 AM:
You mentioned this:
quote:
I think my point is, that I don't really see how red wolves could produce eastern coyotes. The color don't seem right, for one thing.
I was providing a photo example to show that an eastern coyote might actually look more like a 'red wolf', than it does, a western coyote.
Heck, I wouldn't doubt that the decline of 'red wolves' was directly attributable to them interbreeding with coyotes. Thereby, diluting the historical 'red wolf' genome and transforming it into the canine I love to hunt, today...
Losta supposition there, just makin' conversation!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 17, 2017, 01:25 PM:
I've seen coyotes that resemble every one of those photos. I remember some time ago that they thought there were eleven different sub species of coyote. I know that some areas have a distinctive looking type, like the silver or pale coyotes up in the Owens Valley. To say that all western coyotes are basically the same is generalizing and also incorrect.
I think that when people start talking about red wolves or pee wee Arizona coyotes or anything else, I get hung up on absolutes. It's very hard to talk about these things without something sticking out in my mind that contradicts the experts.
And, don't forget. Not only am I old, but I have seen more coyotes before you were born than you've seen since. I'm therefore allowed my half baked opinions.
Basically what I think is there is some validity about interbreeding between coyotes and western red wolves. I don't know about Florida or Carolina or eastern coyotes being big because they bred with some type of wolf.
But, the western animal is perhaps interbred to the point of insignificance. And, if this didn't make Texas coyotes bigger, then I fail to see how it made eastern coyotes much larger? There is room for some disagreement but we could say that eastern animals might weight at least 15 pounds heavier than western animals, especially if you start talking Maine, and northern New England. There could be other reasons but the red wolf part of the reason is what I question.
And, it pisses me off that nobody really knows, but they all have an opinion, just like I do. And, you do. I'm just saying, when you want to bring up eastern coyotes and speculate about red wolves, as you did, I ain't buying it. Post all the photos you want, suggest all kinds of interbreeding, dogs, wolves, and coyotes, but red wolves? Nope. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 17, 2017, 03:13 PM:
Isn't there something called 'Bergstrom's Law' or some such that applies, also ???
Has to do with climate / body size.
For that matter, have 'they' even decided how many sub-species of coyote there are ??
Young / Jackson had it at 23, if I'm not mistaken. Now it's something like 17 or maybe 21 depending on which expert is pontificating on the subject.
This is all very confusing.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 17, 2017, 04:17 PM:
Yes, but your name doesn't ring a bell? All I can say is you may be partially correct in that it started with a "B". Somebody look it up.
It has to do, speculating that as you go north to colder climates, the same animal, genetically assumes a larger body size, supposedly to conserve heat or something?
So, that's one theory to explain heavier 'eastern" coyotes. Or, a more abundant diet? I don't know? Is it because of Red Wolves? I think I have a more stronger opinion on that idea....NO. I'm safe because (actually) nobody knows!
In my opinion, animal genetics is one of the shakiest areas in science today.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 17, 2017, 08:04 PM:
HA !!!
I was close; Bergmann's Rule.
Is an ecologic principle stating that body mass increases with colder climate.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 18, 2017, 05:26 AM:
Yes,
quote:
body mass increases with colder climate.
....and proved by the fact that polar bears in the Los Angeles Zoo are pipsqueaks compared to the Seattle Zoo. Ain't it great? Science is whatever you make it these days.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Wiley E (Member # 108) on January 21, 2017, 04:04 PM:
I was at the Sioux Falls zoo once upon a time. They had what they called a Mexican Red Wolf. I studied that thing for hours and if it was possible to cross the two, that's what I would expect it to look like. Not saying I believe it can be done but I saw distinct coyote and distinct wolf characteristics. Wolf head and muzzle. Large coyote sized sleek body more coyote like than wolf. Wish I had a picture. I have seen many large coyotes and none of them had this animals wolf like muzzle. Oh yeh, and coyote ears on a wolves head. Just bizarre looking critter.
~SH~
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2017, 08:25 AM:
It could be as basic as individual characteristics. Not ALL males resemble Scott Huber, some look more like El Bee.
Anyway, if you take the canine "order" or whatever is more appropriate, and then have a look at the wide variety of dog breeds that supposedly descend from the Asian Wolf, I personally can look at a number of individuals and have to accept that there is room for diversity.
All I say is that the poor bastards that think they know what's going on have a lot to learn about animal genetics. The final chapter has yet to be written.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on January 22, 2017, 11:31 AM:
Lonny back then we pushed the wolves with a lone tracker 99% of the time. That was my job. Tracking wounded wolves sure was a blood pumper in thick woods. Some were called, some were shot off baits but mostly pushed wolves. Shot between 10 and 30 a season. It was a 30 hour drive from home so I just went up for wolf season. Worked for Peter Martin in kapuskasing Ontario.
[ January 22, 2017, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Displayed Name ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2017, 12:41 PM:
That's interesting.
The reason I say that is because I read a report back in the 60's about a situation with a large wolf pack. I can't remember what state that was involved but it was up north, like Montana, maybe Wyoming or one of the Dakotas?
Anyway, after extensive trapping and poisoning efforts, this pack had outfoxed all of them until this man volunteered to take care of the problem.
What he did was exactly as displayed name is talking about. With nothing more than a backpack and a weapon, he tracked that wolf pack relentlessly, day after day. he was close enough that the wolves always knew he was there, even if he wasn't able to harass them physically.
I don't remember how long it took, probably most of the winter, but he played a physiological game with their heads and made the whole pack nervous to the point that they took off for Canada and never returned. This was the last wolf pack in the US and all he did was track them wherever they went. Wolves were eradicated from the lower 48 for almost 100 years. True story.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 22, 2017, 06:32 PM:
Displayed, Interesting way of hunting wolves.
I've read about that tactic before. Did you have radio contact with the guys waiting to tip them off as to where the wolves might show? What kind of success rate was the norm?
I'd bet you were in good shape being the tracker/pusher, but it was probably a great way to learn their habits.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 22, 2017, 06:47 PM:
Leonard I'd love to read that story if you happen think of where it might be found?
I was talking with a guy who worked doing some predator studies in the Frank Church Wilderness area in central Idaho. He said they had a couple radio collared wolves that belonged to a pack that they tracked.
In one case, the pack killed and ate a deer right at dark one day. The next day the pack was located 20 miles away. This country is as steep and rough as you'll find anywhere. I would have thought after eating they would lay around for a day or two?
[ January 22, 2017, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 23, 2017, 04:58 AM:
D-name, that must have been some good times! I agree, you musta been part gazelle to keep on after a wolf pack on foot, in the snow!
I seem to recall reading about the story Leonard described. Could it have been an exerpt from the book about Frank Glaser, "Alaska's Wolf Man"?
As for DNA, I'm not 100% up to speed on genetic research, but it seems that studies have been done on samplings of 'eastern' coyotes. Here's one citing I found that provides genetic mapping in support wolf inter-breeding:
quote:
In 2014, a DNA study of northeastern coyotes showed them on average to be a hybrid of western coyote (62%), western wolf (14%), eastern wolf (13%), and domestic dog (11%) in their nuclear genome. The hybrid swarm extended into the midwestern United States, with Ohio coyotes shown on average to be a hybrid of western coyote (66%), western wolf (11%), eastern wolf (12%), and domestic dog (10%) in their nuclear genome. Coyotes and wolves first hybridized in the Great Lakes region, followed by a hybrid coyote expansion that created the largest mammalian hybrid zone known.
LINKY to entire read , if you care to bore yourself?
Here are two interesting sentences, snipped from the abstract in that link:
1. quote:
We found that eastern coyotes form an extensive hybrid swarm, with all our samples having varying levels of admixture.
I've seen this, personally. Some of the coyotes I kill look like really big coyotes. While others have a distinct 'wolfy' look to them.
2. quote:
Coyotes in areas of high deer density are genetically more wolf-like, suggesting that natural selection for wolf-like traits may result in local adaptation at a fine geographic scale.
I believe I've also experienced this, firsthand. We have TONS of deer up in NY cow country. Abd there are some coyotes I mess with here that seem so 'pack oriented'. Nothing scientific there, obviously. But based on having hunted across the country & calling coyotes in 12 different states (east & west), it is my opinion that these coyotes I hunt here at home are not your 'run of the mill' coyote...
Lots of factors can influence behavior, so I'm not throwing all the eggs in the DNA basket to explain that. Just sayin', something is a little different. Even how they howl is not the same. When my OK buddy heard a pack howl one night on stand here in NY, he leaned over to me and said "good gawd, what the fuck was THAT???"
It is what it is. All I really know for certain, is I sure like killing them!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 23, 2017, 05:39 AM:
Lonny, This is my recollection from a predator hunting book I bought at least 40 years ago. I can't even remember the authors name except it was a Polish name ending in "ski". I know I didn't throw it out but don't know where I might locate it, right now? Busy day today, but I might poke around later. I'm not sure I have the details as accurate as they could be, but the basic facts are related as true, not a bullshit story. In fact, I didn't do the account justice.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 23, 2017, 05:59 AM:
quote:
Lots of factors can influence behavior, so I'm not throwing all the eggs in the DNA basket to explain that. Just sayin', something is a little different. Even how they howl is not the same. When my OK buddy heard a pack howl one night on stand here in NY, he leaned over to me and said "good gawd, what the fuck was THAT???" Fred from New Yawk
I probably said the same thing the first time I heard a couple JACKALS, at night, in Africa. And, do not think those canines are vasty different from coyotes. They just sound different.
I'm always a little skeptical when I read that stuff about exact percentages of DNA, 14.2% wolf, 11.6% domestic dog, etc. etc.
As far as I am concerned, it reads exactly like GLOBAL WARMING statistics; and that ain't good. As I have repeated a hundred times in these discussions; "FACT, the housefly shares 95% of our human DNA". Near as I can tell, wolf/coyote DNA research closely resembles the GLOBAL WARMING "hockey stick" data in believability. These "scientists" only have themselves to blame, and they are prone to censoring and condemning anybody that disagrees with them.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 23, 2017, 06:32 AM:
It's not just genetics, Leonard.
Beyond all the DNA stuff, some studies have done compared skull measurements & found NE coyotes to be more 'wolf-like' than 'coyote-like'.
Which goes back to my attempt to compare photos, earlier. I can just look at the head of a coyote and see how they differ...
Here's another good/boring read on coyote hybridization in the NE
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 23, 2017, 07:26 AM:
Fred, you have finally penetrated my cerebral cortex. See, that is the same thing as I said about how I had to come to terms with what is called a: COYDOG. The features were so jarring and obvious, I was forced to consider some type of hybrid.
The part I reject is counting the friggin' DNA beans and prognosticating....which makes a "scientist" more better that a layman who is just observing. I'm objecting to the whole scientific authoritarian expertise. I think they are guessing like the rest of us, but they have a multi million dollar grant that will keep them in staples until tenure blossoms.
Short answer; do not believe the "scientific verdict" as revealed scripture. Your guess is as good as mine, and then some.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 23, 2017, 11:19 AM:
What I find most intriguing is how this new DNA mapping stuff would appear to corroborate what I've deduced & learned from others, over the years...
Heck, I remember having a conversation ~15-18yrs ago, with an old hound hunter who ran coyotes in our AO. I started pickin' his brain about the local coyotes, how they acted, the different colors & sizes he encountered, & whatnot. Anyhoo, he was of the opinion that the NY coyotes he ran with his hounds had varying degrees of wolf blood in them. He also allowed that these 'wolfy' coyotes came down from Canada, after interbreeding with wolves along their expansion eastward, north of the Great Lakes...
Fast forward to circa 2010, and the studies I linked above, seem to support that very same explanation! If you took the time to read them, you'd note that the eastward expansion of (western) coyotes across Indiana & into Ohio, seem to lack that 'wolfy' genetic makeup. Whereas, the (wolfy) Northeastern coyotes have become an animal, unto their own. And more localized yet, seem to have assumed more 'wolfy' attributes, based on abundance of large prey (deer), terrain/woods, and human interaction...
Just sayin', I'm not just taking those scientific studies as gospel truth. What I am saying is that, based on my experiences, some conclusions drawn in the aforementioned studies make pretty damn good sense. Heck, some of the old locals upstate in NY might tell ya that we have two different animals altogether! Some are coyotes and others are "brush wolves"...
So as not too romanticize them too much, I'll concede that, for intents & purposes, our NY coyotes are just coyotes. But, on the other hand, they sure ain't the same mesquite bean pickin' , grasshoppper eatin' desert dogs you're used to killing on the western edge of 'Murica.
They just ain't...
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 23, 2017, 04:25 PM:
Leonard, Thanks for the info. If you do find it I'd love to know the title or the guys name. I love reading that stuff.
I think it was already mentioned, but 'Alaska's Wolfman' about the life of Frank Glaser is a really good read about hunting wolves back in the day.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on January 23, 2017, 05:03 PM:
New England or Atlanta?
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on January 25, 2017, 02:15 PM:
Lonny and knockemdown, yes I was probably in some of the best shape of my life. Even for a smoker. We did use radios and I was always yelling to allow the hunters to realize where I was and to keep the wolves moving. Tracker took no weapon. Too much extra weight. We'd usually have 40-50 hunters a season and shoot from 10-30 a year. A lot of it had to do if you had fresh snow or not. My first year there was 27 days in Jan with no snow, let's just say it was stressful.
When the snow was often and deep wolves were shot. Tracking was ten times easier and in deep deep snow you can make time on wolves as they can only travel on old paths or they will be breaking trail.
Learned an awful lot about tracking and animal tendencies when pushed and when wounded. Old large wolves would always bust out of the block quite quick where a young 70lb wolf would make you do circles for 8 hrs trying to get it out. Best place to non fatally wound a wolf, the front paw. Twice I've caught up to a wounded wolf with just a busted paw where a wolf missing a leg will go forever. Caught up to a concussed wolf after tracking him for three hours after he was shot. Totally not fatal just grazed his cheekbone. Was a very weird track because there was next to no blood and foot prints were very close together.
I hardly even coyote hunt now just busier with family and work. Coyotes will always be there tho.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 25, 2017, 03:51 PM:
That's funny. A bobcat is the same way about a wounded paw although I'm not sure if it matters, front or rear?
quote:
Old large wolves would always bust out of the block quite quick where a young 70lb wolf would make you do circles for 8 hrs trying to get it out.
Do you think you could explain what you mean? I'm not sure I understand what an old wolf is doing, what does bust out of the block mean?
Also, 70 lb. doing circles for 8 hrs, trying to "get out"? I don't understand that, either?
Very interested in wolf behavior, whatever you can expand on would be appreciated. TY
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on January 25, 2017, 06:39 PM:
I mean the areas we hunted all had boundaries. It might be a river , a lake, a creek, power line, pipe line, a wood cut, trail , road , trails made by us etc. From the air you would not be able to see a distinguishable shape of a block but they were. We would place hunters at probable escape routes for the wolf to jump the boundary. That was the hunters chance.
I meant the large mature wolves would leave the block usually very quickly (under an hour). I believe the mature males left before the female too. The younger wolves would not leave and circle and circle for hours and may never leave. Makes sense I was a lot quicker and energetic at 155lbs than 200lbs.
We rarely hunted large packs as we hunted the same areas year after year. I'm sure he's taken 500 wolves by now. Majority of the time I was pushing one or two with max of 6. Called in 7 once it was a memory I'll always have.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 25, 2017, 08:59 PM:
Thank you for the request for clarification Leonard; I really enjoyed reading the resulting explanation by Displayed. Really great reading and interesting stuff!!
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on January 25, 2017, 09:15 PM:
Displayed,
Good stuff thanks for sharing.
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on January 29, 2017, 08:32 AM:
No problem
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 29, 2017, 06:41 PM:
Displayed, any lion stories? How about one of your favorite wolf stories? Anyone ever threatened, hurt, or bit by the wolves? We like stories.
I'll bet you have a tale or twelve!! Come on man, share!!
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 30, 2017, 05:04 AM:
D-name, what you described is essentially the same way houndsmen run our coyotes in NY. Once a coyote is 'jumped' by either the dogs or a tracker, the experienced "smart" ones will light out across the country, and sometimes go for miles. Just like a savvy coyote out west in 'greyhound country' will hit the first patch of cover and LAY DOWN so the sighthounds lose track of it!
Other coyotes (back here) will begin circling in a 'block' of woods. That 'block' can be 40 acres, or 2,040 acres. Or bigger, yet.
When the snow gets deep, a circling coyote will literally run a loop back into its own backtrail, and just keep going round & round. And they'll conserve their energy and only go as fast as they need to keep a gap between them and the hound(s). Those are the ones that the shooters love, as they move into the 'block' to get in a spot to intercept the coyote on the next loop 'round. Shotguns with buckshot, or 22mag/.17HMRs are the tool of choice. Killing them outright is the idea, but they only really need to slow that coyote down enough for the dogs to catch & bay it up. Then, either the dogs finish it, or the gun does...
Some guys seem to enjoy having 'gritty' dogs, while others just wanting their hounds to stay on the coyote til they can shoot it. In actuality, its just a more exciting version of rabbit hunting with beagles! Just that the rabbit can be a 50+ lb. coyote! Guys who favor hounds that finish what they start seem to run in areas where they may not have permission on all of the land their dogs run. But, since our game laws allow for the legal retrieval of hunting dogs on private land, they can still go into PRIVATE LAND (un-armed) and retrieve their hounds. If the coyote is already stretched when they get there, then no laws were broken. Kind of a gray area, but that's how things roll, here...
YES, would like to read some wolf stories, too!
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on February 04, 2017, 12:36 PM:
I'll try to respond a bit just have a phone so writing and rereading posts is harder than old computer.
Y
No lion stories I never saw a track the 6 years I was there. They are not native to Ontario but there are some. I did see mid winter black bear tracks that must have been awakened due to logging.
There are many many crazy stories from wolf hunting and they all kind of melted together over the years as we hunted probably 5 to 600 wolves in that time and successfully retrieving 103 of them. We lost a few my first couple years but once we got good gps with local logging maps loaded we pretty much got every single wolf we put a bullet in. We tracked a wounded wolf a day and a half after it was shot once. And we got it. I'll see if I can remember all the details and write a story later.
I've never been attacked or threatened but there were a few scary moments. Another tracker did see a wolf he was tracking and it was close and not wounded. The tracker climbed a tree for an hour.
I did have a wounded wolf jump across the back of my snowshoes on day two of a retrieval. I had lifted it that am after tracking about 400 yds in from where it was shot. It took off like lightning. Blood dried up and it got into heavily heavily tracked up woods from the previous day. I tried a few tracks but nothing was looking good. I was about to give up when I found a drop of blood the size of a ink drop. Took that track and it opened up into a tiny clearing. Track was going straight through it. I seen another drop of blood and got on radio saying I thought I had the wolf again. Just the. Heard an explosion and looked back as the wolf was leaping across the back of my snowshoes going past me, I almost shit and missed him in some alders with buckshot. I still don't know exactly what happened but I assume it walked through clearing circled it and was bedded up at the edge of it in my right.
I tracked a wounded wolf once for a few hours and finally in some heavily tracked up woulds found him as he was walking away from me. I shot yhe 115 lb wolf at 10 yds in the butt with buck shot. The old 12 gauge fell apart and landed in the snow in three pieces. The wolf then got back up and gave me the most intense stare and walked away. That was scary.
Knockemdown- we had a lot of hunters say it was like hunting with hounds or a multi-person drive but this was more of a controlled push. I would not start yelling untill I found where I had lifted a wolf out of his bed. Giving me the greatest chance to stay as close to him during the push. On average I guess I would be no less than 300 yds away from the wolf as I pushed it. I'm sure at times we would have shot more wolves if I started yelling right away but I hated the idea of it. I loved finding the wolf and being able to stay in the track.
I remember sometimes where a circling wolf had jumped my snowshoe track up to 15 times. The first two to three times they approached my track they would always bounce off it hard but after that they would cross my track and I've even seen them take my tracks in deep snow if I had them tired.
We run hounds here too for coyotes. Walkers probably won't finish anything, plotts likely will. My hunting partner has a German short hair pup that is as game as it gets already in coyotes. Fought a few this first season(he's under a year) and took a 47lb male coyote down by the throat.
I have two plott hounds but life got busy and never hunted them but they turned a coon into deli meat when they were pups. Wish I still had the Garmin Alpha I had for them. Right now I'm basically just feeding and caring for them. Which is sad for dogs that want to hunt.
[ February 04, 2017, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Displayed Name ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 04, 2017, 04:05 PM:
There was a time that I trudged after a coyote that was hit, he was fussing, but stationary. I had a break open single shot shotgun, that belonged to my partner. As I got close to him in snow that was over a foot deep, he noticed me and started running. But, not very well and I was actually gaining on him and he knew it.
I let fly with the shotgun, hit him in the ass and he turned and came at me. I only had that one shell and found out later that I had picked up a #6shot instead of the 00Buck I thought I had.
He was coming at me and I had no choice but to swing that shotgun like a baseball bat, back and forth, lacing himin the teeth, until the stock broke, and then It was like I was pounding railroad stakes. I didn't bother bringing the shotgun back, just left it, but when I finally got back to the truck, I was exhausted. I threw him off my shoulder and even though his eyes were bugged out, he was still breathing and I considered myself lucky that he didn't bite me in the ass! That was one tough coyote!
Then, hours later, I found the 00buck load in my other pocket! That shotgun was a POS, a raffle prize and wasn't worth more than $25. Still Pat acted a little peeved, and so was I because he could have shot the damned coyote for me instead of just watching the chase. So, I said: well, you know where it is. Chino Valley.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Displayed Name (Member # 4669) on February 05, 2017, 02:14 PM:
Haha that's a good one too I have no idea what I would have done if that wolf came back at me but it was thick like a bear. It walked off and when I went to look for it 15 minutes later I found it dead. Put it across my shoulders and took it out for the hunter. I also left two parts of the shotgun in the woods because I was pissed off at my boss. Told me he paid 25 for it later.
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