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Author
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Topic: latest fads in coyote cartridges
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 26, 2016 07:07 AM
Let's see? Where are we? Is screaming velocity king? Do we still have confidence in seventeen caliber 400 yard killers? What about fast twist and heavy bullets? Are they just barrel burners? Is .224" yesterday's medicine? Now, BORING! Is the bolt action dead? Is my AR quarter inch accurate? Why it needs to be? Are non lead bullets worth a shit?
Take your pick and stick your neck out. Describe your next dream rifle; while the rest of us do our best to show you how stupid it is. What is the ultimate, "do it all" coyote rifle? How much is; Not enough gun?
I knew a guy that swore his 300WM was perfect for all predators, and he was a far above average marksman. I also knew a man that killed a coyote while on a stand as it was running off, with his hunting knife. I knew someone that killed six coyotes on a stand....oh, that was me!
What do you think?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted August 26, 2016 07:38 AM
When I got back into calling several years ago I was shocked to see what a fad it had become. Along with the fad were some new fad cartridges like the 223 and 6mm short mags that produced blazing velocities. Now they're all but gone and the coyote hunting fad is running its course. Too bad I'm too old and in poor health to take advantage of it.
If I were to build my dream rifle (and didn't live in Oregon with its stupid laws regarding what calibers you can carry afield in the Fall) I'd build myself a 6mm Ackley Improved on a Sako action.
Over and out
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
Posts: 593 | From: Oregon | Registered: Nov 2013
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 26, 2016 07:49 AM
Well anymore I shoot 2 rifles for Coyotes. A Remington 700 in .22-250AI and a CZ 527 in .204 Ruger. Can't ask for 2 better Coyote guns.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 26, 2016 09:21 AM
There are no flies on a nice handy 22-250Ackley. If I could have only one, (but I have two) it would be that caliber. And, I used to feel the same way about my 220Swift. (nostalgia trip)
What Moe said about the short and ultra short cartridges, they never blew my skirt up for some reason?
I was talking to somebody yesterday who went on and on about something called a 6X47Lapua whatever the hell that is? And, I said, a plain vanilla 243W is pretty hard to beat if all you want to do is kill a coyote. Although I've killed a lot more with 6MM Remingtons.
But, 'splain me the fast twist-heavy bullet theory? Why, for those out yonder shots?
What do I need to kill today's smarter coyotes that cannot be called anymore with prey sounds?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 26, 2016 09:34 AM
Bulletin:My Minneesota source just informed me that Dan, (the man) no longer has that coyote hunting site online? This is true? And, he moved out of AZ?
Geeze, words fail me?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 26, 2016 10:11 AM
Mentioned this a while back, I've got a 1:8" and a 1:12" barrel to chamber in .22-243AI for a switch barrel rifle. Have 500 60JLKs for the slow twist and plenty of 75-80 VLD & Amax for the fast twist. Will see for myself how each one shoots, and how they compare to each other.
Have pretty good baseline for a fast twist .22-243AI. It offers alot of ballistic & terminal happiness, without being overly obnoxious in the recoil/blast dept.
I still like the idea of Dave's slow twist 6-284 launching 55s at beyond warp speed. That's why I wanna fuck around with those 60JLKs and see if the .22-243AI will push 'em fast enough to shoot that flat. Reckon I'll be disappointed with much less than 4150 fps from those 60 JLKs. But, it'll be fun to try, anyway!
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 26, 2016 11:16 AM
My currently main daylight coyote rig is the 22-243Middlested, which just happened to be there at an estate sale with 300 rounds documented, all 55 grain with what I considered a relatively mild load of IMR4831. Somebody's dream rifle, but it was instant availability without a one year lead time, etc.
And, I get conflicting opinions but I think it is equivalent to a regular 22-243 or Ackley. Anyway, I am using a 62 Berger for as long as they last, then search for something close to that weight. The velocity is pretty stable @3810fps in a 26" 14 twist.
I am very pleased with performance. The velocity peaked a bit early but it's good enough for my purpose. Accuracy is consistant half-inch, and I couldn't really ask for better terminal performance; it kills very well, to too well, sometimes?
I have to wonder how many rounds 'ol Dave will get with that 6-284? The slow twist helps but every 6-284 I ever heard of gave up the accuracy @500/600 rounds, give or take?
So, once you strive for 4150fps, I hope it's not intended as a colony varmint rig because you can surpass that number in one day of shooting.
And, speaking of warp speed. While ringing out my first 22-250Ackley I originally intended it for 55 Bergers and my 35P was showing right at 4,400fps. I've told the story before but the first time I saw a coyote at 250 yards, he didn't much more than blink at (I forget, 3 or 4 rounds) while he stood there. Those bullets printed paper very nicely at 100 yards but were vaporizing somewhere past that distance. And, that's why I went to 65 grain Bergers and discovered a whole new world. Strictly accidental, but since then, I really like 60-65 grain bullets for serious coyote work. In large capacity cases anyway. My idea of perfection is a complete pass through. Forget blowing up inside, IMHO.
Some of our ideas work right away, some require tinkering.
Anyway, who else has a plan?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 27, 2016 12:00 AM
Yeah I love the 60 grain Bergers in my 22-250 Ackley. I'm not really pushing them to fast, around 3800 fps, really puts the coyotes down though. And in my .204, 32 grain Nosler ballistic tips at a tad over 4000 fps very accurate and deadly on coyotes.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted August 27, 2016 05:15 AM
Still like my 17Rem.,Shoots a hot load with a 25Hornady that splats them pretty well at the short ranges I call coyotes up to. Just got to place those little hps in the boiler and its all over.Loved my 22-250 with 55's but gave it to one of the kids to pop coyotes over in Utah.Still miss it and will just have to get another.
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted August 27, 2016 01:15 PM
To be honest, I've had big pipe dreams & have blabbed so on the "net" I give up. I don't know ?
Hell, I make take my stash for a dream rifle & buy a steer or two instead. Life changes ?
My comments are not intended to squash anyone's passions. Ya just get burned out after a while. I'm turning into a keep it as simple as possible guy, who's now somehow ? now early 50's Lol
I probably deserve a sound beating for saying this, based on my dislike for the look's & feel of a Savage rifle.
I'd probably buy a Savage 243W in a 22" barrel & load some 85gr GameKing's or a soft point of some variety & call it good.
Probably kill as good as anything out there, without the sex appeal. Then again it's all in what trips a guys trigger. It's all good my Amigos.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ August 27, 2016, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 27, 2016 01:23 PM
Sounds like an enlightened opinion to me? I'm surprised!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted August 27, 2016 07:23 PM
I was just taking a look at the 6x47 Lapua. Apparently it's a 6.5x47 necked down to 6mm. I was looking at working velocities and they seem rather low for hunting. A standard 243 would be a better choice, IMO.
On another site some years ago a couple of guys were talked into having a couple of 6x47's made. They were told that the 6x47 was the greatest coyote cartridge ever made. I had a Remington 700 XBR in 6x47 for a bench rest gun. It was supremely accurate in that gun but as far as killing power it sucked. It's a 222 magnum cartridge necked up to 6mm for 200 yard bench rest.
Give me a 22-250 any old day.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 28, 2016 11:04 AM
My changes are carrying less weight, Kimber Montana's in 204, 223AI and a 22-250AI are as fancy as I'm gonna get from here on out.
Well I do have the machine guns to add some spice now and then.
[ August 28, 2016, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 28, 2016 02:05 PM
I bought a Kimber Montana in 223, last year and had my best day ever with it. I think I killed 7 or 8 coyotes that day. Shot 5 on one stand. That was stellar for me! I would like to set one of those up as a 22-250 AI or 6XC.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 29, 2016 05:31 AM
Moe, I did build a 6AI on a L579 some years ago. Krieger barrel. It was a heavy barrel, colony varmint rig. Handsome looking setup in a walnut stock. Pic below... Accuracy never quite satisfied me so I sold it off on down the road. Full disclosure of the poor accuracy to the guy I sold it too - it was just not better than a 5/8" gun. Not up to my standards for a colony varmint rig, back then. But, he still has it and has killed a couple tons of hogs down in Texas with it.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 29, 2016 05:37 AM
Oh, latest fads... I don't keep up with them anymore, honestly not even sure what they are. Seems to be large capacity, low expansion ratio with fast twists and heavy bullets though?
I never had any use for that configuration on a coyote stand. Played with it on long range colony varmints for a little while, just long enough to wear out two 8 twist .22-250AI barrels with 75's and 80's. Just too many crawl offs on the long range varmints. That, and no matter how good the equipment or how skilled you are, when shooting at prairie dogs at over a half mile, you are dealing with a circle of probability. You do everything you can to reduce the size of the circle and center it properly. But end of the day, it still takes luck to connect. And too often, when you do connect, the varmint doesn't die cleanly. Longest kills I made on p-dogs were with a 6-284 and Sierra 107's. Hit five or six and my buddy hit another five or six between 800 and 1100 yards one morning. Out of the dozen or so hits, less than half died without making it back down their holes.
Just lost interest in the whole idea, myself.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted August 29, 2016 06:34 AM
Other than birds I stopped shooting small game many years ago. Just thinking about it it was when I moved to Alaska. Not much small game to shoot in Southeast.
When I was in my early 20's living in San Francisco I'd drive to Stockton to visit family and would spend days on end in the foothills and around Lodi shooting squirrels and jack rabbits often killing in excess of 100 in a day. Maybe I got burned out on it?
My interest in a 6mm AI would be for a calling rifle and maybe an antelope if I could ever get a tag. I'm a stickler for wanting a sub MOA rifle for hunting but in reality the great majority of what I shoot is well under 200 yards.
Looking back (at my advanced age it's all I can do these days) I started my calling career with a Sako 243 which was the most popular rifle in the CVCA. Even with solidly hit critters you could expect a runoff every now and then. When I traded it in for a Sako 22-250 sometime in 1966 those runoffs became almost non existent.
Last comment: I've never owned a 223. I went straight into the 223AI. I did own a 222 mag and the first time I took it out I killed 11 coyotes over the course of 2 partial days of calling. But I learned about bullet selection when I was in my early 20's and took a 222 out calling. Some nice people at Sierra bullets helped me out when they were still in Santa Fe Springs, CA. They told me about the Sierra Spitzer Blitz bullets. When I got the 223AI that's what I loaded up. They kill good out to about 225 yards in the 222 mag and 223AI. I like the 50 grain bullets. But...... neither cartridge ever performed as well as the 22-250 for killing power. I still own a Sako L579 made in about 1966 or so and it's still my favorite calling rifle.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 29, 2016 07:05 AM
You know, Moe. Hunting cats and coyotes at night from a rig, I went straight from a 270W to a 220Swift and I shot match bullets exclusively. Hornady 53, Sierra 53 and Speer 52 Gold were my favorites. I lost very few cripples, but still, I always carried something with me when walking out. And, just to save a bullet, I would opt for a rock most of the time.
I think I killed more coyotes in fifteen years with that Swift than anything since. That rifle was rebarreled into 22-250Ackley and it was far better at what the Swift excelled at, believe it or not? But, I don't think I killed more coyotes with it. By then, my heavy predator hunting phase had tapered off a little bit.
But, we know you are old school when you say: CVCA because more than twenty, (maybe 25) years ago it was changed to CSVCA, because somebody stole our copy-write when we weren't paying attention.
Those really were the good old days.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 29, 2016 12:53 PM
I wished I would have known about that organization when I was at 29 Palms back in 1982. We used 223's because we got the ammo free on base.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted August 29, 2016 07:17 PM
Yes, I am old school and those were wide open GREAT days. I love going to California and calling some of my old haunts. Up until my health went in the shitter last year I'd meet Tawnoper and Switch for a couple of days of calling down there. Those guys are like old time callers and really excellent at it. Ed's dad was CVCA Pasadena when I was. Both guys are real gentlemen and give an old guy like me a break by allowing me a kill every now and then.
In the old days we did some daytime calling but the great majority of what we did was night stuff. A little story...
When I got the 22-250 I already owned the 222. I first tried using the Spitzer Blitz bullets in the 22-250 and found out that at higher velocities those bullets disintegrated right out of the barrel. So I went to a regular Spitzer. That one made it to the target but really made a mess of what it hit. Also, if there was so much as a twig in the way the bullet deflected. I had tried the Sierra 52 grain HPBT in the 222 with spectacular results as far as accuracy goes but for hunting it was terrible. So I tried it in the 22-250. I wound up using that bullet exclusively and killed a whole bunch of critters with it. Out of my Sako even on a bad day I could count on 1/2" groups. I later bought a Ruger 77 with the red recoil pad and tang safety just for a little fun. With that rifle 3/8" groups were common with that bullet. I did cheat a little by putting a Canjar single set trigger in it but still......
Funny.......I now own a Rem Classic 700 in 220 Swift. The first coyote I shot with it was a spinner that ran off into the sage where I couldn't find him. I was using a Hornady A Max and the coyote was close. I figured the bullet went through him so fast it didn't open. The A Max is meant for larger game so..... The rifle sets in my safe these days. Shoots and kills well but it's not my Sako.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 30, 2016 05:13 AM
I had a Canjar single set on my 25'06Ackley. I loved that rifle. It was stolen. I built another.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: that first one was built by P.O. Ackley himself.
[ August 30, 2016, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted September 07, 2016 08:03 AM
Alright, I have used a .17 Remington for years and until 3 years ago still used it for fur. I never had all those problems I read about. Started using one in 1990 until 2012. Killed a lot of coyotes with it. Lost a handful over the years. Never felt handicapped by it at all. 400 yards well I don't think I shot any that far but shot quite a few at the 300 yard range and a few over 350. Killed just fine for me. Ran Berger 25 gr. match bullets and never looked back. In all fairness though I had some run off but always had a dog on stand that saved me. Most went between 50 and 75 yards. Just another tool we have the option to use. No night hunting here in AZ.
I do have a .223 but its a 12.5 AR with a 1-7 twist. Had a .223AI with a 1-12 with a 22" barrel and ran the same bullet in both. 55 NBT and see better results with the 1-7. All I can figure is that the additional spin changes the dynamic's of the bullet. See more blood coming out the mouth and nostrils with the 1-7.
Ran a 6XC with a 1-8 and 105 Hybrids and that rifle killed coyotes very well. Most exits were golf ball sized and larger were not uncommon. Wind drift was a major reason for this combo. Have went to a .243 with 90 E TIPS for a good compromise of wind drift and energy. I went to the larger calibers for better energy and the need for lead free bullets. The control work I do for the state requires lead free. In the spring it has been common to call in doubles and triples from time to time. The first shot is normally pretty good but after that its not always ideal. With the 90 E tips and 80 grain Barnes TTSX I have been able to shoot it year round for fur and damage control work. Its not the flattest nor has the best wind drift but it compromise very well between the two without me needing to learn two different rifles. If I were to go back to just fur hunting I think I would go back to a 204 Ruger and be done with it.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 07, 2016 09:40 AM
Brent funny you should mention the .204 ruger.
I have now owned 3. Bought a couple when they first came on the scene. Shot alot of Coyotes with them and the 35 grain Bergers.
Then I got a real bug for the 17 calibers so I got a 17 Tactical and had a ball and again killed alot of Coyotes.
But in recent years good Coyote bullets are either becoming scarce or way expensive.
So after selling the two .204 rugers I had, I broke down and bought a CZ 527 in .204 and again I love the hell out of this little rifle. I have changed my load though. I have been having great success with the 32 grain Nosler ballistic tip running 4000 fps. Very accurate and kills very well with no real damage. H4895 Seems to be the best powder in my rifle.
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 07, 2016 11:49 AM
Are 20 caliber cleaning rods about $75?
No, really, I think a 204 is probably good for relatively close in stuff. I have never used one. But Chad, you aren't using it at night, are you? Seems like there are better choices? Mine would be a 22-250Ackley.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Tom just wrote, and he agrees with me.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 07, 2016 12:08 PM
I really can't remember how much I paid for my cleaning rod. I bought over 10 years ago.
No, my .204 is a fur gun for day stands only. And limited to 350 yards. Lately I have been mostly using it though to see the performance on Coyotes with the 32 grain Nosler ballistic tip. And so far it is a go. But its only killed about a dozen Coyotes. I will really test it in the next few months though.
But yes if I want a Coyote dead day or night and Im not to worried about the fur I will always grab the .22-250AI. ALWAYS.......
Plus I love packing it(.204) on a stand it only weighs a little over 8 lbs with the scope.
Good Hunting Chad
[ September 07, 2016, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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