This is topic Thermal Scope in forum Night forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 27, 2020, 06:01 AM:
My state is going to allow night rifle hunting with lights and NV equipment starting in December. Up till now its been moonlight and shotgun only. Not really what I wanted to do.
What is the best (cheapest) way to go to get in to thermal gear. Any brands better than others or models of scopes? I read an old post that talked about a hand held thermal scanner to locate and then switch to lights for shooting instead of a dedicated NV scope. Is that still the way to go?
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 27, 2020, 06:26 AM:
I just realized I posted this topic in the wrong forum, Leonard. Can you move it?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 27, 2020, 06:46 AM:
Don't matter .............. 'bout three posts and we'll be off topic (as per posting guidelines) anyway.
I don't know squat about night stuff. You might also try one of the Texas Hog Hunting sites. They might be able to suggest something since they do a lot of night shooting.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2020, 12:57 PM:
Yeah, I can move it. Where do you want it, NIGHT HUNTING FORUM?
I have not used thermal, except for locating a down animal at night, just NV once in a while. Visible light works fine, if you know what you are doing.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 27, 2020, 01:36 PM:
I looked at one of those Texas hog hunting sites. They do have quite a bit of discussion on NV sights. Almost too much info to sort through. Everyone got an opinion it seems and hard to know who to believe.
That's why I asked here on Leonard's board. I figured the posters here knew what they were talking about. Well, most of you anyways. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2020, 03:12 PM:
The problem in actually hunting with either NV or thermal is a little ponderous. They way we hunt with a red visible light is that the scope is passive, all the actual hunting is done with the guy working the light. When he has an animal incoming, the shooter can see what's going on and at that point, get involved by moving, deploying the gun.
Now, my NV is Russian and a little bulky compared to the latest and greatest. But, imagine using the thermal system and waving that weapon around in a circle for 10 or 20 minutes. It gets heavy.
Consider while maybe still hunting deer and your only way to observe is to look through your scope. This is a very difficult thing to explain, but while trying to hunt with an infrared or thermal scope as your only means to scan the terrain, you will start to make a few 360's every minute or so, maybe longer?
Realistically, in my opinion, you need two systems. Or, you might get by with thermal goggles, hunting by yourself and holding a shotgun. This can work. I vastly prefer working with a partner.
Jumping into this night hunting and starting out with the latest technology sounds like it can't miss. The whole problem with visible light is the wariness of coyotes; cats, not so much. But if you put a IR filter on a spotlight and have a NV scope operated by your partner, both of you can see what's going on.
With Thermal, I think the best solution is a man with IR goggles and the partner with a rifle and a thermal scope. Just one guy, going out and buying a thermal scope, like I said, you will get very tired hoisting that rig for as long as it takes.
It might be a little smarter to start with a conventional spotlight and then working all the latest technology into your setup, seeing how to apply what you have with what you need. In other words, if your state starts making night hunting legal, this does not necessarily mean that your only option is a $4,000+ thermal scope. If nobody has been night hunting in your state, it's reasonable to assume that your animals aren't sophisticated and not very light shy.
You know, Ive killed thousands of predators at night with visible spotlights and it can still be done. Jumping into thermal is going to cost quite a bit to get started and there will be quite a steep learning curve.
What I'm telling you may or may not make sense when you think about it. So, think about it and ask; maybe I can guide you in the right direction?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 27, 2020, 07:42 PM:
What you said makes a lot of sense. Use something like a thermal monocular to identify and track the animal and then switch to lights or some other NV scope on the rifle. Doesn't have to be thermal at that point. That was essentially what DAA was talking about in that old post from 2017.
I don't have an extra 4 grand lying around to drop on a nice thermal scope but I think I can swing a Leupold LTO 2 HD monocular. Most of the time I hunt alone so I'm trying to figure out what works solo without breaking the bank.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 28, 2020, 04:01 AM:
I think that if I was going to jump into solo night hunting that I would rig up one of Leonard's red / white flip lights on a tri-pod with a decent swivel pan head before I spent a lot of coin on various night vision goodies. With l.e.d. lights and good batteries you should have enough light to at least figure out if you even like hunting the night shift without breaking the bank.
Edit to add; People were killing coyotes with old school lighting long before night vision was even on the drawing board. If predators in your area have not been pressured at night you should have at least a couple of seasons before they get all knowed up and you need the high dollar fancy stuff.
Note that I didn't even bring up the fact that it's been rumored that the very first coyote ever killed at night with a light was by our own El Bee with a blade of grass for a call, a spear and a torch while wearing a loin cloth a long time ago. A long long time ago.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ July 28, 2020, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: Kokopelli ]
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 28, 2020, 05:39 AM:
After some thought, I think you are right. I may be putting the cart before the horse here. This night vision stuff is appealing but I probably need to just get a good light and see how things go before diving in to the deep end on thermal. I've told people in the past they don't need to run out and buy a $700 e-caller to coyote hunt before they know if they are even going to stay with it. Same applies here I think. Thanks for the advice.
That mental vision of LB in a loin cloth is, um, disturbing. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 28, 2020, 06:04 AM:
REALLY DISTURBING is the visual image of the victory dance around the bonfire at the awards ceremony afterwards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2020, 08:23 AM:
I "knew" a guy, not very well, I assure you, but Since he worked with my cousin, I had met him a few times and we drove up the old grapevine for an outing. I had a 25'06 with me and this guy, (don't remember his name) he was walking ahead and had flushed a bird that landed on a stalk of something, at the top and the guy was gesturing frantically and yelling at me to shoot it! At this time he didn't have any experience with guns, at all, as far as I knew? So, with a what the hell attitude, I knelt on one knee and shot bird. Why? Don't know but it was not something I am inclined to do....normally. Anyway, the bird vaporized and a cloud of feathers fluttered to the ground and he stood there with his mouth agape and mesmerized!
At first he opined that firearms were not fair, humans should fight them hand to hand; and he was talking about mountain lions. Like I said, this person was not really playing with a full deck.
Running hot and cold, as relayed to me by my cousin, he went out and bought a 25'06, had to have that caliber, nothing else would do, and then he found out how easy it is to dust a bird sitting on a sunflower stalk.
Sometime later, he became a gun lover and killed a man with a pistol in a little bar in Vernon and went to prison and I think he got out, was released somehow and never heard from him again. It all fit, one day he showed up with a tattoo next to his eye so that tells you everything you need to know. A very scary bastard! Oh! Almost forgot. He did a victory dance when I shot that bird, no bonfire, but it was primitive, carnal and spooky! Exactly like that GOLDEN STATE RAPIST asshole they recently caught, another Hannibal Lector, and these guys walk among us. We are sometimes even lumped into the same category. You know, GUN NUT!
See how easy it is to get off topic around here?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 28, 2020, 08:48 AM:
Ahhhhh ............. The Old Grapevine. I knew it as the Ridge Route.
Memories ............ Oh the memories. !!!!
Last I heard, it's all gated off now.
Sad.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2020, 08:18 AM:
OMG! ko ko, that's what my MOM used to call it!
THE RIDGE ROUTE!
We are talking 1943 and my dad was just drafted even though he was married with a child. My mother was scared shitless driving the OLD RIDGE ROUTE into LA. Why they went that way, I don't know because he had to report to George Army Air Corps Base in Adelanto.
I remember her talking about it when the movie, THE LONG LONG TRAILER was playing and she claimed it was the same harrowing situation, wheels just barely clinging to the pavement, hairpin curves and this is a direct quote: "My heart was in my mouth!"
Figure that one out?
You don't really look that old? Old, but not THAT old. Be careful in crowds, wear your mask, stay off of ladders, etc.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on July 30, 2020, 01:14 PM:
I bought a N*Vision Halo LR scope and Pulsar Accolade LRF binos. I would recommend if just look at scanners I would suggest some type of hand held scanner from Pulsar.
Cheap and thermal don't normally do well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2020, 06:22 PM:
Brent, can you explain how you intend to employ your equipment in scanning, (what I call hunting) and actually mounting a visual/optical device on a firearm? Working alone, I assume?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 30, 2020, 07:01 PM:
quote:
I bought a N*Vision Halo LR scope and Pulsar Accolade LRF binos. I would recommend if just look at scanners I would suggest some type of hand held scanner from Pulsar.
Cheap and thermal don't normally do well.
That is definitely some very nice equipment you have there. But it is way over my meager budget. I've been looking at the Leupold LTO 2 HD monocular. Have you heard anything good or bad about it?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 31, 2020, 06:49 AM:
Well, see, that is kind of my point. Jumping into this technology with top of the line equipment needs to be put in perspective. It's a progression and some of it is not justified for the individual that might want to hunt at night once in a while.
I don't think Brent would be offended if I mentioned that he is a professional and not even considering the tax write offs, it makes his job easier to use the latest and best technology available.
This is a crawl before you start walking and running situation. If you learn that your state is going to allow night hunting, it is not logical and justified to start thinking right away about purchasing very sophisticated and expensive thermal equipment.
Let's just say, hypothetically, if the state announces that they are going to start licensing pilots, that does not mean, as your first step; to go out shopping for a new Gulfstream 550 business jet. Maybe what you want is a nice little entry level Cessna 172?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on July 31, 2020, 01:12 PM:
Your point is well taken. My question about the Leupold monocular was just to see what someone who knows lots more than me might think about it.
I can relate to the pilot analogy as well. I've got a private pilot's license (haven't flown in years though) and am very familiar with the Cessna 172.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 01, 2020, 06:43 AM:
I have never understood the resistance to just about any method and level of night hunting? It can be incredibly thrilling, daytime hunting has nothing that compares. I mean, sure there is a lot of hunting that has thrills and chills but hunting at night is just DIFFERENT!
In South Africa, several things stand out. The first is that they have no reservations about "silencers". They are quite common. Hunting at night is also done but I admit, I was interested in hunting jackal and Caracal and that's done at night almost exclusively. Same with Leopard. One of the men I hunted with said he had killed 40 leopards but I don't know how many were at night? Probably quite a few? When you consider adversaries that can bite back, there ain't an animal on earth as formidable as leopard and I am well aware of lions and grizzlies, it's a personal opinion, but that cat is one bad ass MF! Have you ever seen video of a leopard climb a 20 foot tree with a hundred pound Impala between it's teeth? They are incredibly strong! For that matter, have you ever tried to hold down a house cat that didn't want a bath? You can multiply that times one hundred and you will for sure get hurt wrestling with a leopard!
Anyway,
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on August 04, 2020, 05:27 AM:
Leonard,
Its for my business first off so its a lot easier to swallow on the price but still a big gulp.
The scope mounts to a picatinny rail so simple there. I am building myself a 6mm Creedmoor for the scope as we speak.
The binoculars are used just like normal ones. You see in shades of grey. You can see farther with these than you can with a light. Last weekend I watched a coyote over 800 yards coming in to the call. The nice thing is everything happens at a lot slower pace. I can see cows over a mile away.
The cheapest way out would to be buy a good scanner and then use a red light on the rifle for the very end. I prefer coyote lights over the others.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2020, 10:16 AM:
Just stumbled across this this morning.
https://www.eurooptic.com/Leupold-LTO-Tracker-2-HD-Thermal-Viewer-177188.aspx
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on November 08, 2020, 07:18 PM:
I posted my night hunting inquiries here because, after all, LB was calling at night back when they invented night. So, who better to ask? Bwahahaha
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 10, 2020, 10:26 AM:
I can share a little tidbit about technology. At first when I joined the club, they didn't have a workshop, just an example of a "spotlight" that a reasonably handy 8 year old could fabricate in about twenty minutes.
First of all, you start with a one gallon white plastic bleach bottle. You cut the bottom out and then you take a full size headlight and set it inside as far as it will go and glue it in place with some silicone. But first you have to stick a fair size cord through the neck and you punch out the metal cap then attach the leads. You want to tie the thing inside with a half hitch so it won't pull out when you screw the cap on. At this point you just hook it up to the car battery, and you would get real fancy by installing a toggle so to turn it on and off.
Well, I actually made one of these things. When the light was on, usually a low beam flood was used but I don't remember what I used? We sat on the hood of my 65 Chevelle and drove a few dirt roads swinging it around. It lit up a lot of desert and the damned white jug offered no concealment at all besides looking like a white glowing flying saucer. Anyway, we did light up a few eyes, maybe kit fox? But, the driver had to be careful about slamming on the brakes because you were going to slide right off the front with a panic stop. The signal was pounding on the hood with your left hand behind you, and, in theory, now the driver would grab his rifle and exit and then shoot the stupid critter. I'm pretty sure that didn't happen and by morning we were whipped. My shooter had a Model 94 Winchester, BTW. That thing grouped inside 36" at around ballpark 100 yards. I remember telling him that he would be better off by hiding behind a bush and braining a coyote as it ran past.
Anyway, that was night hunting technology in 1968. I forgot to mention that this scanning was done while blowing on my Circe jackrabbit, absolutely on a lanyard, but the whole operation invited quite a bit of serious thought after returning home. And, in those days, the club was very insistent that only hand calls be used. The very first caller I ever saw was called a Port-a-Four and used a 4 track tape with a dying rabbit sound. It was about the size of a Coleman lantern if it was inside it's case. I never bought one but I think it had a motorcycle battery inside?
I'm telling you, the technology advancement was a huge struggle! You may find this hard to believe but there was almost nowhere you could buy any sort of camo clothing. The first shirt I owned, I bought at a Army/Navy surplus store. When you look at a Cabela's catalog, it seems like at least the first 100 pages are nothing but camo clothes and none is cheap. You people don't know how good you have it these days! I always thought it was particularly stupid to make camo knives and flashlights. Seems like those types of things are the last thing you would want to be hard to find if you dropped it in the weeds somewhere? Even a "camo" stock for an extra hundred bucks. I have not worried too much about rifle concealment but admit that I have done it once or twice, amateur hour.
Yes, progress and technology are great. Really, 50 years ago, nobody every heard of a camo stock, much less any flavor of fiberglass besides wood. It's so friggin' easy these days I wanna throw up!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 10, 2020, 12:51 PM:
I can still remember when the Kamo-Klan came out with camo t-shirts for early season bowhunts with the pocket on the right side, no less. That was a big deal at the time.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 12, 2020, 08:11 AM:
I'm not too hep on the significance of a tee shirt pocket on the right side, other than the fact that I have never seen one? In what way would that be an advantage for an archer? Or, is it a Leftie thing?
I think the best solution for those little kids with a tendency to use their left hand for anything is to smash it with a hammer, for as long as it takes, for the unfortunate little kid to understand that he is swimming upstream in a right handed world, and to get with the program.
Also, it severely complicates the game of baseball, to allow left handers to play.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 12, 2020, 11:41 AM:
If one shoots a bow right handed, the bow is held with the left hand and drawn with the right, the aiming done with the right eye. Normal t-shirts with the pocket on the left can cause the string to hang up on anything in the pocket.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 12, 2020, 02:35 PM:
I see. Thank you! And I was thinking something like breaking your thumb in the right hand pocket at full draw. Now, I can see what you mean! I have to write my congressman! Something needs to be done before somebody gets seriously hurt!
Watch this space!
LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 12, 2020, 03:39 PM:
Archery is actually a very safe sport that can be enjoyed by the whole family from Grampa to Grandson. Women-folk, too. Entry level expense isn't too bad.
Golfers on the other hand are always getting hit by lightening with their metal clubs and oversized umbrellas. I won't even get into the expenses or golfers getting hit in the faces with other men's balls. Terrible. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 14, 2020, 03:19 PM:
I thought we weren't going to disparage the Gay lifestyle?
edit: I'll explain my crude joke because I doubt anybody could figure out getting slammed in the face with testicles....even though I suppose that dreamy hunk Anderson Cooper french kisses his husband with his eyes closed. But, who cares? Right?
edit: excuse me, I'm having election withdrawal
[ November 14, 2020, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 14, 2020, 06:25 PM:
Maybe 20 minutes of watching the news total since the election meltdown. What have I missed ????
I tried to think on who Anderson Cooper would think about with his eyes closed when he's with his 'husband' but the best I could come up with was an old twisted truck driver joke.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 02, 2020, 01:33 PM:
Stay tuned to this space because "he who shall not be named" has purchased a high dollar thermal scope. We will anxiously await reports!
El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 15, 2021, 11:52 AM:
I've been meaning to mention that "He who shall not be named" bought himself a midrange $ thermal scope and has been hunting alone and sitting in the cold for hours, but he has managed to kill some coyotes with his scope on a rifle and a tripod.
To tell you the truth, I think that he might be having at least as much success as conventional red spotlighting but with a partner.
In other words, if you want to cough up a couple grand to kill coyotes, it looks like a thermal scope is one solution.
Good hunting. El Bee
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