This is topic 3.4 Mile Shot in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2019, 04:32 PM:
Thoughts?
https://www.ballisticmag.com/2019/04/15/global-precision-group-hits-3-4-mile-shot/
[ May 23, 2019, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 23, 2019, 07:47 PM:
Well, after reading the link info, I didn't even bother clicking it.
Simply because...
once target distance gets beyond my personal range determination where an impact is a both a reliable and a repeatable expectation, actual shooter skill and ballistic performance become increasingly eclipsed by environmental factors.
In other words, I don't care to lob boolits and HOPE they impact. I want to do the work that keeps impact percentage high enough to where I'm actually surprised to NOT make a hit...
What are your thoughts, Nick?
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 24, 2019, 12:35 AM:
Fred,
Similar to you, this reminded me of World War I machine gunners arching rounds into their target. I became privy to this technique while reading the book "A Rifleman Went to War" by H.W. McBride.
Not looking to demean anyone else's accomplishment, but I was wondering what the collective thoughts were on this considering their technique, equipment, etc. The shooter mentions a 3 shot group in the video after he connects with the target, but they didn't show it.
All in all, I think this is an accomplishment in it's own realm, though I am not sure if it qualifies for the Guinness book of world records.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 24, 2019, 04:10 AM:
I don't feel that framing an "accomplishment" within a realistic context is demeaning. Easy way to do that is as easy as determining hit % probability...
Simply put, and beyond the notion that hitting a barn door with a shoulder fired rifle is an "accomplishment", I'd like to see a breakdown of total # shots fired included on all of these 'extreme long range' endeavors.
Just sayin, I could take my .22LR and 100 rds of match ammo out, and put a car hood out @ 600yds. If I manage to hit that target three times, out of those 100rds, does that constitute an "accomplishment"? Surely a 3% success hit ratio ain't nuthin' to brag about...
Now, if I only took 5 rounds out to shoot, and made 3 hits, its easy to see how a 60% success rate under those same conditions would be a feat worthy of interest. And especially so, if that 60% hit ratio was a repeatable "accomplishment"...
Context matters!
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 24, 2019, 04:48 AM:
Just silly and unrepeatable is there really a point to this nonsense! THE TRUE MEANING OF BECAUSE I CAN !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2019, 10:19 AM:
I made a trade with a guy for a shotgun, an 11-47 Remington, I believe it was and I'm sorry I didn't hang on to it. Anyway, it came with about 150 rounds of various one ounce shells.
I just so happened to have that gun and ammo with me driving along the very scenic highway that is along Walker Lake in northern Nevada.
We just so happened to stop at a parking area on a high promontory and we noticed a huge flock of ducks rafting way out on the water. I'm sure there were at least 150, maybe 200 ducks, and being winter, the lake was deserted, which is normal and always puzzled me because it looks like a great fishing lake, about 20 miles long, or so.
So, with the idea of using up all those slugs, for which I could think of no useful application, I started launching them kinda like we used to fling grenades with our M1, butt on the ground at a 45 degree angle and lobbing those slugs into that huge flock.
We could just barely see a splash and there was no velocity left other than as a falling rock at that distance. I am sure we never hit a duck but did get close a few times. So, This was an unqualified success, in my book.
Now, I'm going to click on 49's link and see what it's about. The reason I have not, as yet is because the stated distance is ridiculous, almost laughable, no it is laughable and my opinion is a lot like Fred.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 24, 2019, 11:30 AM:
I BELIEVE:
That as long as it can be done safely, there is no such thing as a practice shot, gun, bow, or sling-shot that is out of the question.
These guys set out to try something and they made it happen. Good on them !!! ……… It's not 'my thing' but if it makes them happy, it makes me happy.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 24, 2019, 11:39 AM:
Did anybody watch the video?
Fred, I think we are closer in opinion than you might believe. It's not my style or intention to be critical, that's why I said accomplishment in it's own "realm." And not qualifying for Guinness..
Also don't want to bias this thread as I am looking for peoples' unbiased opinions.
Edit: Posted the same time as Koko.
[ May 24, 2019, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 24, 2019, 12:47 PM:
I watched the video. I agree with Fred.
However I enjoyed watching the other video on that page of Halle Berry shooting and training for her role in "John Wick 3".
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 24, 2019, 02:27 PM:
Luv Halle!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 25, 2019, 05:07 AM:
What Fred said.
Including, I didn't watch the video. But I almost never watch any videos about anything. I almost never click on any links anyone posts, for that matter - it was totally out of character to even go that far ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
But as soon as I read it wasn't until like the 21st shot, I quit even reading and closed the window.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2019, 07:22 AM:
I agree with Fred and Dave, and anybody else that considers themselves riflemen. 21st shot or 121shot, what the hell is the point? Oh well, keeps them out of the Honky Tonks.
Now, if you scroll down in the comments, about 12 down or so you will see that Paul Melching has entered comments. Could there be more than one?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS I still haven't watched the video
[ May 25, 2019, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 25, 2019, 07:33 AM:
So, the 21st shot made a hit?
LMAO
Sheeeeiiit, imma go buy me 21 scratch off lottery tickets. And, if I get even a $2 winner on ONE, imma write an article about it, so you guys can read about my "accomplishment"...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2019, 09:19 AM:
Did they consider earth rotation. I'm pretty sure, from half court, I could make a basket in 21 attempts. What a liar, am I!
Anyway, it wasn't illegal and no harm done so whatever?
good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 25, 2019, 01:32 PM:
Not only did it take 21 shots, but according to the accompanying write up, they were "21 cold barrel shots". I'm not a precision shooter, but even I know that somewhere after about the second round down the tube, the next 19 or so are less "cold barrel" shots, and more just misses.
I watched the video, read the article. and yeah, hitting a target at that range is an accomplishment. But in order for it to be a really big deal, I think that they should have demonstrated how they were able to gauge the wind, distance, curvature and spin of the earth, and then were able to actually calculate the proper dope to make that shot, rather than just walking the shot into the target. To me, they did not do that. Just sayin'...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2019, 03:01 PM:
Yeah, but then, Lance, it would have been one of those legendary one shot one kill things.
The guns do look like serious shit, but for what they are doing, how shall I put this? Never mind.
Question: if they are elevating the rifles 27 feet or whatever it was, what is the scope for? They can't possibly see anything but sky?
I don't know what you were expecting with this, 49? But we have more than a couple long range marksmen on board here. What that video shows, (had I watched it) bears very little on any type of long range marksmanship, civilian sportsman or military. Just the title shrieks bullshit.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 25, 2019, 03:05 PM:
3.4 miles is a long ways, so to me, that's a pretty good accomplishment. Surprised it only took 21 shots really.
Have you ever watched King of the 2 Mile? Check it out, if you like long range shit.
I have rang some steel at 1000 + and its satisfying...for a little while..then I'm bored. Would rather be hunting.
Btw...Public Service Announcment... stock up on your ammo before July 1.
Mark
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 25, 2019, 04:26 PM:
quote:
Not only did it take 21 shots, but according to the accompanying write up, they were "21 cold barrel shots". I'm not a precision shooter, but even I know that somewhere after about the second round down the tube, the next 19 or so are less "cold barrel" shots, and more just misses.
I watched the video, read the article. and yeah, hitting a target at that range is an accomplishment. But in order for it to be a really big deal, I think that they should have demonstrated how they were able to gauge the wind, distance, curvature and spin of the earth, and then were able to actually calculate the proper dope to make that shot, rather than just walking the shot into the target. To me, they did not do that. Just sayin'...
Agree Lance. 100%
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 25, 2019, 04:31 PM:
quote:
I don't know what you were expecting with this, 49?
I was expecting to have a conversation on your forum, Leonard.
[ May 26, 2019, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by NeilA (Member # 6789) on May 25, 2019, 05:38 PM:
I think it is ridiculous, however, that being said, I would certainly enjoy going duck hunting with Leonard someday.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 26, 2019, 01:14 AM:
Thanks for the discussion gentlemen.
[ May 26, 2019, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 26, 2019, 04:40 AM:
Because I'm stuck home today, here's some math stuff to ponder. But first, let's touch upon some commonly known things about rifles & groups size...
We're all riflemen, yes?
We all know what "MOA" is, yes?
We all know that a rifle / load that can hold a "1 MOA" group at 100yds is nuthin' special, yes?
We all might know that, holding a "1 MOA" groups at 1,000yds is infinitely more difficult. Here is why:
1: rifle harmonics/limitations
2. Scope consistency
3. Parallax & other sighting limitations
4. Load consistency (velocity spread, bullet shape/b.c., powder burn, etc.)
5. Environmental factors (WIND, air pressure, spin drift, etc.)
6. Shooter skill
These are just SOME things that make holding "1MOA" at 1,000yds ALOT HARDER than holding ~1" at 100yds...
If ya didn't know that stuff before, ya do now.
Continued next post...
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 26, 2019, 05:06 AM:
Now, let's break down some math, so we can relate to the distance of he shot in that article.
1 mile = 1760 yds = 5280ft = 63,360 inches
"1 MOA" @ 1mile = 18.43"
Therefore, "1 MOA" @ the cited 3.4 mile distance = 62.7"
So, if a rifle / load were capable of holding a "1 MOA" group at that distance, that means all of the shots fired would have to only fall within a ~63" wide circle.
That's a FIVE FOOT WIDE target / group size @ 3.4miles.
Now, lets go back to "1 MOA" @ 1,000yds.
Most 'long range' shooters know the difficulty of engaging a 10.47" target at 1K. That's why most targets at/beyond 1K are at least '2 MOA'. I.e, at least 20", maybe bigger.
Why?
Simply because the variables noted above increase groups size exponentially as distance increases...
To follow that logic, the further the target, the larger the average group size will become. In other words, a proven "1 MOA" rifle @ 100yds, may only be a 2-3 MOA capable rifle at 1,000yds.
3.4 miles = 5984 yds
Nearly SIX TIMES the distance of an already challenging 1,000yds engagement. But, due to the exponential degree of difficulty, a 6,000yd shot isn't 6x 'harder' to "accomplish" than 1,000yd shot. So.....
How much harder is it? Dunno if it can be calculated, but if ya consider all the above, add a dash of common rifle knowledge, you'd realize that attempting to qualify a shot attempt @ 3.4 miles with any tangible degree of skill or repetition, is pure & unadulterated BULLSHIT. And, I haven't even bored ya with statistical analysis of how bullet b.c. variation, or muzzle velocity swings negatively affect ballistic performance at such extended range...
Just sayin'
[ May 26, 2019, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 26, 2019, 05:24 AM:
Ran a couple quick numbers for my (totally BADAZZ) 30-338Norma Improved, 215 Berger @ 3150fps.
By altering the velocity ONLY 1fps, the theoretical drop deviation @ 1mile is about 1 inch.
My ballistics program only goes to 5,000yds, so:
At 5,000yds, that SAME 1fps deviation in muzzle velocity (from my rifle) translates to ~15" in drop!
Yes, a mere 1fps velocity swing means my rifle/ load 'll hit 15" high, or low at 5,000yds.
It'd be MUCH larger @ 6,000yds...
So, if the load I'm shooting has a 10fps ES (extreme spread), that ALONE introduces a ~10" variability in POI (point of impact) at 1mile
And the SAME load would introduce ~150" of vertical dispersion @ 5,000yds. That's 12.5 FEET OF VERTICAL SPREAD due to only a ONE FOOT PER SECOND DIFFERENTIAL in muzzle velocity...
Granted, the rifle and load used for the article is likely more capable and would mitigate these variables. But, the affects of even a few FPS would be HUGE...
See how ludicrous this shit is becoming with a bit of breaking down???
[ May 26, 2019, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2019, 05:39 AM:
OK OK Fred. Appreciate your math. Impressive!
Here's what I'm "just sayin'", the first three words of the post title, is all I needed to read, to not take it seriously. edit: 3.4 mile shot
Geeze, all those "factors" you listed, and I'm thinking, just one-WIND can blow all those stupid calculations and efforts, plumb out of the water!
Not only that, but really, could you swat that boolet out of the way like Shaq doing some goaltending!
Some of the things grown men putter with really are amazing....and stupid. I agree with one comment that has been mentioned a couple times, it's actually amazing that they hit the damned target in only 21 shots; and I bet they couldn't do it again with another 100 attempts?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: and another thing. Maybe a few others feel the same? This shit is actually offensive, I take it personal. I refer y'all to my earlier post about launching 12 gauge slugs at floating ducks on a lake. That's all it is, with a gear upgrade. RIDICULOUS!
[ May 26, 2019, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 26, 2019, 06:05 AM:
I don't take anything personal, just reminds me of the old saying:
"If ya can't dazzle em with facts, baffle em with BULLSHIT"
And, as you mentioned Leonard, even a whiff of a breath of a breeze would blow that poor bullet tens of YARDS at 6K. Makes the breakdown of vertical dispersion seem comparatively inconsequential...
Given there is no way to KNOW what velocity each round will leave the muzzle at before the primer pops, that negates the ability being able to correct for it. That's why 'long range' shooters rely on statistics like ES and SD, it's to narrow down a range of velocities in order to manage actual vertical group size realized on target. And that is the EASY STUFF! Calling the wind down range is more a voodoo art form, than anything.
So, we've got a shot attempt that already has a vertical dispersion potential that is many times larger than the actual size of the target. Simply stated, just ,asking a hit requires holding dead center & HOPING that the (marginalized) statistical probability of ONE of the rounds of that group will fall inside the target parameters. Bascually, a pseudo-semi-calculated guess...
After all that crap, we supposed to believe they can calculate a wind call to account for any & all variation of crosswind, head/tailwind, updraft/ downdraft AND spin drift...along an entire length of ground that is 3.4miles long???
Does there happen to be a link to selling oceanfront property in Wyoming, anywhere in that article? LMAO
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on May 26, 2019, 08:45 AM:
Doesn't quite qualify as "one shot, one kill" does it? So I really don't see the point of all of it other than the shooter got lucky on the 21st shot instead of the 121st shot. But it seemed to make him happy so it was worth it to him I suppose.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 26, 2019, 03:40 PM:
SMH!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2019, 04:36 PM:
Showing off your mastery of internet code lingo, huh?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 26, 2019, 05:40 PM:
What Paul said.
(But I had to ask my wife what he was talking about.)
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on May 26, 2019, 07:53 PM:
I apparently covered old ground. SMH. LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2019, 06:18 AM:
Send me an email, I've GOT to know what SMH means in polite conversation. Thanks a lot, folks!
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 27, 2019, 12:17 PM:
Shaking my head LOLLOLLOL!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 27, 2019, 12:33 PM:
Awwww ………………………. I had him believing it stood for Send More Hookers.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2019, 01:10 PM:
You two like your vowels? Keep it up!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 27, 2019, 04:38 PM:
Ok …………………… We'll be good.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 28, 2019, 03:33 AM:
Not me I'm never good !
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 28, 2019, 07:45 AM:
Im locking this thread!
Regards,
Internet Police
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2019, 02:45 PM:
You are like a broken record, but it cracks me up every time you intervene!
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