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So basically, we can believe the officer on camera telling the driver not to pull his weapon or not believe it. If we don't believe the officer then he is guilty of murder. If we do believe him, then he is not guilty of murder, though may perhaps be guilty of an over reaction.
member 49

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Also, you probably know a lot more about the law than I do? However, believe it or not believe it; that murder is committed? Wouldn't there be some form of negligent homicide, or manslaughter, but how do you come up with premeditated Murder? And, base it on the video's audio? There is a lot of middle ground between first degree murder and manslaughter, in my book.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on June 23, 2017, 05:18 PM:
 
The wife live streamed it to Facebook. Her perspective is from the drivers seat. So that video is out there somewhere?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 23, 2017, 06:19 PM:
 
First of all, I am not saying I approve of the officer's actions. I have already stated more than once now that I don't approve, and I would have (and I think could have) handled the situation differently.

I am saying that from the video, and whatever other evidence there was admitted into court, the jury did not find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder, manslaughter, or anything in between.

I will add one more thing, and then will be done with this thread...

Leonard, if you were stopped by the police, and they found out you were carrying a weapon and told you not to reach for it, put your hand on it, fondle it, or whatever. Would you listen to them? I certainly think so.

[ June 23, 2017, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2017, 06:39 AM:
 
Yes, first of all. It's probably better that we all bail on this because we seem to be in a rut?

49, your question to me has nothing to do with the facts of this case, such as they are. You can be assured that I believe there is a 50/50 chance that any cop that draws down on me is a trigger happy control freak. Therefore, I'm not going to reach for a gun, especially when I've been warned not to.

But what the hell does that have to do with this shooting of an unfortunate citizen?

All we know is from the audio, and the cop never says that he sees a gun, only that he tells the man not to pull it out. He could have had the Hope Diamond in his lap and (apparently) you would believe him just because he said, don't pull out that diamond!

You get points for stating that you don't approve of the officers actions. Well, guess what? Hardly anybody approves of his actions except for 12 people that were the ones that judged him. Even then, we don't know if it was only a SINGLE ARTICHOKE that wasn't convinced of his negligence?

I still don't understand why you ask me what I would do? Reasonably intelligent people will not be fondling a pearl handled pimp gun while staring at a deranged police officer who is screaming at him. It's safe to say that 99% of those surveyed would have their hands so high in the air that they would be raising the roof at least a couple inches higher than usual.

So, that's not a fair question, is it?

Yes, we know that you stated several times, you do not approve of the officers actions.

You also know the guy is guilty, but he got away with it. So, don't go blaming the dead man for the foul actions of this cop who will never work in law enforcement ever again. I see a future in "Security" maybe, but his days in law enforcement are over, and thank God for that!

Case closed.

And, thanks for bringing the issue to our attention! We always like to render judgements on the fatal actions of the law enforcement community. And, you kinda knew what reactions and opinions you would be getting, so don't act surprised that I am deeply disturbed by every fact of the matter. I get it just as much as you get it. But I didn't see a gun because this officers credibility is near zero, and you did. <shrug>

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on June 24, 2017, 11:15 AM:
 
St. Louis Sheriffs Dept might hire him. They have hired felons before. After all it is hard to get LEO's with experience. His main problem is he is white, that may disqualify him.

I think you both made your point. He was found not guilty, just like OJ.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on June 24, 2017, 11:19 AM:
 
St. Louis City first responders make considerably less money than St. Louis County staff. Yesterday they said on the news that county firemen make over 30% more $$$ than City fireman. City fireman without a doubt go on more calls. My Cousin with SLPD makes less than my friend in the county. County got a huge raise again.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2017, 02:15 PM:
 
I'm pretty sure some have a prevailing wage clause. It's like a self generating engine, however you describe it?

In this el Crapo state; fire and police (I think) retire with 95% of their base pay or highest grade, something like that? It's why we are going to be the next broke state after Illinois. Public sector pensions. This is why its bullshit to allow public employees to unionize. Governors buy votes this way.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 25, 2017, 03:17 PM:
 
What I was trying to say is I think from watching the video there was some fault to go around on both sides.

Another cop tells me not to reach for or touch my gun and I won't. Not until he finds out what team we are all on. If I, as a fellow law enforcement officer reach for my gun when another cop tells me not to, I stand the chance of getting a dose of the same thing we saw on the video. Right or wrong..

The cop was obviously too "jumpy" for this job and should not be in law enforcement, nor should he have been in the first place.

Yes, we are at an impasse here. No use continuing the discussion. Maybe some day over lunch and a beer it might be a different story.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2017, 06:03 PM:
 
No, unnecessary, really. We both have the same attitude as regarding this Shrinking Violet Officer who finally flunked the test in a big way. An unfortunate big way.

And, I think you are smart to obey commands if ever in the same scenario, as I would, to the letter!

Not only that, but I would be repeating and replying to his commands every bit as earnestly and distinctly and at the same level of speech, in order to convey my fervent desire towards full and complete cooperation!

Apparently, for some of us, it all hinges on the words, "don't pull it out"? To me it proves nothing? To me, it doesn't alter my opinion of what transpired, one scintilla, as our favorite black ex president might say?

Therefore, any question that begins with; what would you do, and ends with a, don't pull it out, is a complete non starter. It's not pertinent nor germain to the actual facts.

Other than that, we're cool!

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: I just noticed; like a female, I apparently want the last word?

[ June 26, 2017, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 01, 2017, 02:20 AM:
 
Not to re-ignite this thread (I am not changing my stance), but this is an interesting opinion given by Mas Ayoob:

http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2017/06/30/the-castile-shooting/
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on July 01, 2017, 04:01 AM:
 
He certainly spent more time analyzing this than did I. A very interesting account and possibly a game changer Thank you for the new perspective 49 . He is a very well spoken and thoughtful person I enjoy his writings , books and articles .

[ July 01, 2017, 04:02 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 01, 2017, 06:20 AM:
 
You're welcome Paul. Mas is about as good as it gets in a gun writer / expert.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 01, 2017, 06:23 AM:
 
Thanks for providing this information, the author is a well respected gun writer.

However, I could easily file all of it under spin control, something to think about but we still never know? First I heard about a wide grip as the victim "pulls it out" while still indicating very strongly that the asshole never saw a gun!

Then too, I'm not sure if we were aware of the description of a robbery suspect before, because the getaway folks(turd) usually has the wife and kids along for the ride....right?

Oh yeah, the very strong smell of weed, which may in fact be entirely legal, but this cop has already formed an opinion. Total bullshit that he stopped him because of brake lights. Chances are good that he never saw brake lights until he turned on the bubble gum machine and THEN he noticed, "hey wow, no brake lights, there's my reason for the stop."

I'm wondering if; this poor shmuck had his wallet in the same pocket but beneath the gun? If so, what the hell could he do? I guess, get hammered five times because he was looking straight ahead, under the influence of weed? Maybe he was wondering how he was going to solve the predicament?

Yes, so 49 has a tribe and Huntmasters members generally belong to a slightly different tribe so (apparently) we think differently?

Yes, I agree that we have more to consider, but when push comes to shove, I really can't say I alter my original disgust and resulting opinion? As I have been saying all along, HE DIDN'T SEE A FUCKING GUN ! The best he can come up with is "a wider grip than normal for a wallet. Notice that we never hear about the contents of that pocket? Little things, (facts) like that are withheld, I have to wonder why? So they drag him out onto the street and pretend to do CPR and what happened to the wallet? Where's the gun? More BS information, and it still boils down to an innocent citizen dead by a trigger happy cop....here's $3 million to keep quiet about this little fuckup.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 02, 2017, 09:25 AM:
 
Yes Leonard, I like to think I am part of two tribes...

1. My LE tribe.

2. My gun toting second amendment redneck tribe.

Is it possible to be part of both? I dunno...you tell me.

As I have said, I didn't change my stance on this incident, in spite of what Mas wrote (and I know Mas from the forums and respect him greatly).

I think what I was trying to show, was that there are two sides to every story, with different viewpoints and feelings.

I try to identify with both tribes here. I am trying to be honest with all of you, and mostly honest with myself.

Anyhow, I will submit that LB will have the last word.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 03, 2017, 07:45 AM:
 
49, I truly appreciate your candor and opinions. Thanks for allowing me the last word, which is something I'm not particularly interested in having but it goes along with how I run this outfit and to keep the dialogue rolling, such as it is.

Anyway, regarding the foot in two camps thing, as a member of a certain tribe, as it is portrayed here. In my opinion, a cop is a different animal, cannot belong to any other "Tribe" when push comes to shove. There is something in their makeup that makes them gravitate towards other cops, usually the only true friends they ever have, except from family and they always manage to keep relatives at arms length.

So, the fact that you have a difference of opinion with how procedures were followed doesn't mean, for a minute, that you stepped out of your tribal affiliation. All you managed to say was pretty much, "he was wrong, I would have handled it differently."

Now, whereas, I have an opinion that justice was not served and the cop should have gone to prison, a member of the other tribe manages to say that the officer handled the stop wrong. As if that is coming down hard, on a major fuckup that cost a man his life.

But, I understand, it's in your DNA. Look, you're a big boy so don't think I'm picking on you for your opinion. I'm just saying, you really can't condemn a brother officer, even when he is blazing away into a vehicle with three innocent citizens who were minding their own business five minutes ago. He's the one with the bulletproof vest and the one authorized the use of deadly force, yet he is acting and reacting like he is surrounded by 15 gangbangers who just got out of prison! No need whatsoever for the way this asshole handled a not uncommon situation. Our friend, Nick has handled it, the same thing, calmly and professionally, on a number of occasions. No reason, that I can see for the freakout, but hey, I didn't see the "wide grip."

This little episode clearly demonstrates the bunker mentality, on the street and here on Huntmasters. When you are a cop; YOU ARE ALL IN. Remember, we love ya, and don't take this shit personal, K?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 03, 2017, 11:13 AM:
 
No offense taken Leonard.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 03, 2017, 12:55 PM:
 
Question;
Was the 'bad guy' right or left handed ????

If he was left handed, as I am, drawing and firing at an officer who would normally be standing a bit rearward would be almost impossible.

If he was right handed, the seat and his body would have blocked line of sight for the officer until the weapon was brought out and around.

Either way, the whole thing stinks for all concerned.
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 06, 2017, 04:25 PM:
 
Mossad Ayoob has a good video on how to behave when pulled over while carrying with a CCW. First hand your CCW to the officer with your driver's license when he gets to your door. Tell him where your weapon is and ask the officer how he wants you to proceed. I keep my CCW permit with my driver's license.
 

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