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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 11, 2016, 11:08 AM:
Anybody here have 'em ?
I probably need my head examined, because we bought two baby (two months old) Nigerians last night. We put them on leashes last night & this morning, little bastards eat everything..
This place came with a goat shed/pen. If, I can figure out how to keep the female from jumpin' out, I'll have it licked ?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 11, 2016, 11:47 AM:
I'm partial to Spanish / Catalina goats.
Got three of them on the wall & one that's in the Calif. Bowman Hunters record book.
An old timer once told me "If the Devil walks the earth, it's in the form of a goat!"
Good luck & consider deep pit bbq-ing 'em. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 11, 2016, 11:53 AM:
I like Boer goats, they are "meat" goats, and have a body conformation akin to a meat lamb.
Other goat breeds, look like Holstein cows, all bone, no muscle, AKA edible meat.
You essentially have a weed eater that shits and makes noise, but they are cute little bastards.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2016, 01:37 PM:
I don't know but I'm kinda positive towards goats! Those little Nubians are cute as hell. Goats seem to be naturally friendly to humans, unlike a lot of animals. If I had a country place, I might find a place for a goat or two. They need protection from coyotes. My grandson has one and his biggest bitch is that his goat keeps climbing on his car.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 11, 2016, 02:53 PM:
Lol on the comments. Yeah we have twice heard coyotes out back here so far, the wife is kinda worried.
Damn, these little bastard are cute as hell, friendly also. My Father in Law dropped by & they just kinda wandered & followed us around.
I need to go tidy up the shed. I have 'em in a temporary pen in the back yard now. With a sheet of press board, over the top, I found out back to keep Sophie from jumping out.
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on June 12, 2016, 06:59 AM:
My wife and I are also partial to goats. We were buying eggs from a farmer near us. They have a lot of livestock including Nubian goats. One time I went by when they weren't home and I started hearing some serious bleating. It was a baby Nubian that they'd taken in as a pet. The thing was used to being fed and pampered by people so when it saw me it ran over to be spoiled. They even took it in the house. Cute as hell. I had a picture but lost it when I changed laptops.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2016, 07:23 AM:
My son's ex girlfriend, (the one with 35 dogs) had some goats. I don't remember what they are, but rather large, and it doesn't matter, anyway? But, she was forever chasing the goats out of the alfalfa for the horses, they were quite clever at gaining access, and too spoiled to eat weeds anymore; makes a game out of it.
She's also the one with 30+ rescue cats. She's the reason that the vet she works for can claim to be no kill. She adopts damned near everything, it's crazy. Even a pet cow with long horns, I want to say Aberdeen, has long hair, tame as hell, but actually worthless. And the donkey, and the chickens and seriously, I'd hate to pay this woman's feed bill. Did I mention the horses? And, that's another thing. The vet bills, even though she gets huge discounts, and the blacksmith.
I think she has something seriously wrong with her, and it's only because her mother bankrolls the whole spread. Why? The woman is lonely. The both of them maintain adequately with great life insurance from when her brother, (airline pilot) died. Enough gossip.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on June 12, 2016, 01:21 PM:
I had a dairy goat breed many years ago. THEY WILL eat anything and everything.
I'd have boer goats if I get any more.
My goat was raised from a kid on a bottle and thought he was a dog. He'd follow me on my horse and help round up cows.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2016, 05:26 AM:
I googled Boar goats. Didn't see why they are the greatest? But, alsoI saw some pet goats advertised for $700. That's about ten times more than I figured? They have some strange code words, withered and buck something? Buckaroo? I still thing a pigmy Nubian is just about the cutest thing on four legs. Beats potbellied pigs. Goats seem intelligent and I appreciate that they seem to treat humans as fellow travelers. I bet there is some rule I can't have one here? You want to see dumb? My tortoises have to have their faces pushed into food before they recognize it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 13, 2016, 06:59 AM:
Boer goats have meat on them Leonard, other breeds are milk producing goats, meaning they have no meat on them. Picture a Holstein cow, standing next to an angus steer, and decide which one you want a streak from.
A well fed out Boer goat wether, looks just like a butcher lamb, well muscled up, round and fat...yum.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2016, 09:04 AM:
Thank you, the several sites I visited failed to point that out. I'd probably stick with the less exotic chicken.
You know, a few years ago, my old Army chum that lived out in the Antelope Valley where all the 4H folks live. At various times, he would get suckling pigs and bronze breast turkeys and a couple times, surplus dairy babies which were (I guess) Holsteins? The black and white ones?
Anyway, he always fed Purina chow and everything grew as expected and those guys have a network for plucking and dressing turkeys and slaughtering your critters for ya. We would
have the hogs cold smoked for a couple weeks and they were very different from commercial hams and pork, I guess because of no hormones? But, the Holsteins bulked up on this chow also and I thought the meat was pretty good?
We knew going in that it wasn't economy, hardly broke even versus what you could buy in the store, but that's not the whole story. The turkey was as good as I have ever tasted anywhere, and the hams were so fine grained and tender that you couldn't relate to the store bought stuff. As far as the beef, of course it's not "Prime" but compared to sirloin and things like chuck roast, it was pretty good eating. Even the loins were really not too shabby.
We could have smoked just the bacon, these were bacon pigs, about 22 pounds of bacon, and the hams could be either 2 or 3 per shank or whatever you call it? But, the cool thing was, the smokehouse guy didn't care how much you smoked and we did the front shoulders and the smoked pork chops were really different and really good.
So, except for the trouble, and for me, the only trouble was driving out there to pick up my stuff and tell the butcher how to wrap so many chops per package. Then there is the pork sausage, you get quite a lot of it, not links, but like hamburger for patties and he mixed in as much white pepper as we wanted.
Like I said, it wasn't cheap meat, but it was damned good meat, hard to put a price on something like that. Hated to see him move up to Washington! At least he's not on the coast, it's up by Spokane, which is just about the best part of that state, as far as I am concerned. Hate coastal Wash., you can have it! My brother is in Tumwater, by Olympia and they need sunshine therapy. It rains up there, you know? I wouldn't live there for all the tea in China. They drive to Portland to shop and save sales tax, and lucky to avoid speeding tickets unless there are enough Kalifornia tags to fill their quotas. The whole state is chickenshit as far as I'm concerned, so if anybody doesn't like it, go ahead and dump on my state.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 13, 2016, 10:51 AM:
Interesting topic!
Whenever I finally GTF-outta LI and settle into the country somewhere, sure lookin' forward to having a couple goats (and chickens) around the place...
Good luck, Dave!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2016, 02:39 PM:
And then, you will be screaming for your county animal control to thin out the coyotes that are killing your free roaming chickens!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 13, 2016, 06:11 PM:
Thanks Fred. I hope you can get outta Dodge soon. Town livin' sucks.
Here's the babies.
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net /v/t34.0-12/13435884_10208735636779710_953778837_n.jpg?oh=72de429e20346f18f744159e7b50ad45&oe=5761A560
Sophie following me as I'm headed to turn on water.
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net /v/t34.0-12/13457838_10208735637259722_254729904_n.jpg?oh=c27b97e12b887a7fa74e717e9a1414f9&oe=5761C1CE
Both the kids.
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne t/v/t34.0-12/13414486_10208735637459727_1367731998_n.jpg?oh=feaa87031cf8cc8cf1c1af3886acd497&oe=57619727
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/13434258_10208735637539729_1635638852_n.jpg?oh=aebb4dabd542245dc52460d4cd981016&oe=5761827D
[ June 13, 2016, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 14, 2016, 06:09 AM:
That's pretty cool! So, they are just naturally inclined to follow you around? What's with the rope?
So, they must be hand raised to be so tame, or are all goats that way? Both females, huh?
About how much for a baby goat in Ideehoo?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 14, 2016, 06:47 AM:
I put two blackbelly lambs in the freezer two months ago. They are hair sheep, versus wool sheep. Upon casual inspection, one would think they were goats, very short hair versus wooly look or feel. They come from wild stock, mouflon and Barbary sheep. I had a ram and a ewe, go them at 3 months age.
Wildest fucking sheep Ive ever raised, very much like deer in the pen when you'd go out to feed, water ect. As long as I was quiet and moved easy, no problem. Make fast movement and those things were all over the pen, bouncing and banging into the fence. Had them until they reached 9 months old and they never tamed down.
When it came time to visit the butcher shop, there was no way I could catch them to put in a trailer or cage on wheels, I had to ease into the pen and put a .22 bullet in each ones melon, slit their throats and haul ass to the butcher shop 20 minutes away.
[ June 14, 2016, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 14, 2016, 07:08 AM:
They're bonding more with us by the day, last night was our 4th with them. Yes LB they were hand raised-bottle fed by the lady we bought 'em from.
Which cost more. I paid $100 each. The girl "Sophie" is the tan one, the boy "Sammy" is the black/white little guy.
I got a leash on 'em for now. Just in case, I need to grab 'em. Oh a few more days & I probably wont worry about it any more.
[ June 14, 2016, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on June 14, 2016, 08:53 AM:
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/johnp18/Got%20Him%20a%20Goat_zps9g7cjqvx.jp g[/IMG]
How do you post a picture directly to the site?
[ June 14, 2016, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: JP ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 14, 2016, 09:16 AM:
The first thing you have to do is upload your photo to a sharing site like photobucket. Then you will see a code that usually says: for message boards, or something similar. You just copy the code and then paste it here.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ June 14, 2016, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on June 14, 2016, 09:23 AM:
Thanks Leonard. Our daughter raises goats and chickens. Had a big bowl of goat milk ice cream last night, just as good as store bought, she also makes her own cheese and yogurt. Her nanny goats are people friendly but the buck is pretty aggressive.
[ June 14, 2016, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: JP ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 14, 2016, 09:26 AM:
quote:
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/johnp18/Got%20Him%20a%20Goat_zps9g7cjqvx.jp g[/IMG]
How do you post a picture directly to the site?
There's a space between the p and the g in the ".jpg" above:
[ June 14, 2016, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on June 14, 2016, 09:29 AM:
Thanks Fred, think I got it now.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 14, 2016, 09:47 AM:
Those are some serious charges, jp. So, that's why our buddy Dave got a goat?
Seriously, I have heard a lot of stuff about animals, what's called Beastiality, although my spellchecker says that's not a word?
What is consistent, time after time is Arabs and goats. True or not it's frequently mentioned. Apparently, they have religious restrictions about what is acceptable sex with females, who are not a wife, although it's claimed that they can marry several females and even children. This is all hearsay, I know nothing as an absolute fact but who cares?
If it's true, the other weird stuff they say is easier to believe. The religion and culture is so backwards it's unbelievable. They are locked into Biblical robes and sandals, beards and thousand year old hatreds like it was yesterday.
Then, they use our technology (cellphones) to blow up people, vehicles and airplanes. I assume they would be happy with no modern conveniences and herding camels and keeping pet goats? It's just not reasonable and incompatible with modern civilization. I mean, just think about it: Convert or Die! It's crazy and they just don't see how crazy it is?
There is no solution. Either rope them off from sane people, or be forced to kill the son of a bitches. They cannot win. Without out technology, they will get nowhere. If reasonable people get serious towards this threat, they are in big trouble to alter their beliefs, or we kill them, bringing peace to the world.
Other than that, I have no solution.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 14, 2016, 09:52 AM:
I'd like to know how that space got there? If you copy, you copy the text. I'm confused?
Good old Fred, the tech expert to the rescue!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 14, 2016, 10:42 AM:
Here's some raghead doing a little night time shearing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYUVCufE634
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 24, 2016, 05:36 PM:
Ok, I'm burned out on politics. Update on the goats.
Two weeks now, we've had 'em. Things are pretty dang smooth, thus far. These guys crack me up, they yearn for attention. Takes about 5 minutes out of my day in the morning to feed/water & pet them.
Do the same after work, except turn 'em out. To graze/play & such. Sophie cracks me up, she jumps up on top of my well head & balances herself like it's nuthin'
Good times
[ June 24, 2016, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on June 25, 2016, 11:30 AM:
They are great fun until they grow up.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2016, 03:54 PM:
So, what do you mean? Do they get cranky, or indifferent, or what?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: anybody?
[ June 25, 2016, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 25, 2016, 09:33 PM:
I don't know. Guess, I'll find out ?
Right now my worry is one jumping on the hood of my wife's car, while roaming free around the place.
Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on June 26, 2016, 04:50 AM:
They get bigger and grumpy at times.
Dirty and they eat anything from flowers, fruit trees bark and all. They will butt glass doors and mine would chase and butt my mom.
I can't remember how much I paid for him at the auction but only sold him for $20 or so.
Yes, that was in the 70's. That goat would be worth a fortune now a days. lol
[ June 26, 2016, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: earthwalker ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 26, 2016, 11:05 AM:
Thanks, yeah that's kinda what, I'm expecting down the road. These Nigerians don't get very big, that's why we got 'em.
I know they won't stay like puppies forever..Lol
This summer, I need to run a cross fence @ the end of the pasture, so they have room to roam & not so much around the house, in free range mode..
Of course it's special, three or four strands of barbed wire ain't keepin' these guys in !!
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 12, 2016, 08:19 PM:
Ok, learning Goats. 1'st lesson. Don't bend over to check on the other goat. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t34.0-12/13672582_10208967018004096_1697343447_n.jpg?oh=e6a1b81286ce42e03d1b994f6f9bd4c5&oe=57878F8E
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 13, 2016, 06:30 AM:
That's cute!
So, better than a puppy?
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 13, 2016, 05:28 PM:
Well, I'm not sure about that LB. Sure is a new experience for me though, wouldn't have had time for this stuff when younger.
It's funny how life changes. Neighbor keeps bringing different horses over to help eat my little pasture. Keeps hinting he's to old for all this stuff.
I think he's trying to talk me into a couple of horses. That in itself is a whole 'nother conversation.
They are kinda like pets for sure. I don't think they like cold weather, so this winter will be interesting.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 13, 2016, 09:08 PM:
Seems like horses are a big responsibility, they need care and proper foods like molasses and oats and carrots and apples not to mention alfalfa, not to mention vets and farrier. I think you have to wash them and what they call currier, is it? I think they need grooming? Actually, I don't know much about horses? But they sound like an unneeded expense, not to mention tack if you plan on riding them?
I'll pass. I still have a kink in my back from getting kicked by one of those bastards. I actually almost brained that son of a bitch. Seriously This close! I should have. I think I hate horses.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on July 15, 2016, 04:09 AM:
Been eating goat curry all week long for supper, go figure! Found a kick azz recipe on a traditional Trinidad cooking site, good stuff...
Just sayin', if the goats don't like the cold, you could always curry 'em, or tuck 'em in next to the mashed taters?
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 15, 2016, 06:34 AM:
Fred, my wife would cook me for supper before the goats !!
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 15, 2016, 07:32 PM:
Leonard, your horse thoughts pretty much mirror mine.
We have a number of 5 acre "horse ranches" right around out house and all I have to do to see a giant money pit is look into the neighbors pastures. I also can see a convoy of diesel pickups and horse trailers parked at each house along with a horse barn.
Playing cowboy ain't cheap from my perspective...
One neighbor has five horses and I've never seen him saddle one up in at least 5+ years. He told me awhile back that two of his hayburners aren't even broke and they are at least 10 years old. He isn't well off from all appearances either, but he does have his horses.
I had another neighbor horse lady call me a couple years ago asking if they could pasture a couple horses on our pasture since we didn't have anything mowing the grass down. "It would be good for the grass" she told me. All you have to do to see how good it is for the grass is take a look at her pasture and the non-existent grass... No thanks, I told her.
I know some people use them and really enjoy them, but I also see people who are literally horse poor, but wouldn't dare sell. Raise some beef and actually turn a profit seems to not even enter their minds.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 16, 2016, 06:32 AM:
There's a lot of truth in Leonard & Lonny's posts.
I kinda ran with a horse crowd if you will back in the 90's. Tried penning & roping, wasn't worth a shit. Yes knew plenty of horse poor folks also.
Kinda funny how some lived in in crappy house or whatever, yet drive a new diesel & fancy gooseneck trailer. I suppose it's whatever one considers a priority ?
Yeah, the old guy across the road doesn't ride either. I'm sure he's fine on money though.
I'll probably buy a grass calve or two this spring. I'll tell ya though, looking out there, those damn horses sure are pretty though ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 16, 2016, 09:48 AM:
I do agree with you Dave, I'd sure rather look out my window at horses than more people, houses, and hear barking dogs. So yeah, they are nice to look at and have around in that regard!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 16, 2016, 11:44 AM:
I suppose everybody has noticed the prejudice out in the pastures? Horses and cows do not mix well. They won't even allow the cows to munch around the edges where they take a dump. I'm not even sure how they take a drink?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS, I remember reading a Louie LaMour novel once in which he talked about a cowboy's relationship with his horse. Hardly Roy Rogers and Trigger. And they all rode mares because they couldn't help shooting the ornery stallions, if they couldn't get close enough to de nut them? I'm pretty sure Obama has been Gelded.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 17, 2016, 08:38 AM:
I guess, I didn't know that ? Never really thought about it, to be honest. Interesting.
Goats seem to go with 'em though ?
A quick story, my boss used to have a mare & a goat. They were best buddy's, that damn goat would somehow jump up on the horses back & the horse would just walk around. She didn't care ?
Anyway he never road her & donated her to some girl in 4H when they came to get the horse the goat went into the trailer also. He says well, guess you're getting the goat also !!
He heard later every time she took that horse for a ride, the goat had to always tag along. The horse wouldn't go unless the goat came with !!
[ July 17, 2016, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2016, 10:22 AM:
I kinda love that story, Dave. Got any more?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 17, 2016, 06:21 PM:
Gosh, sorry, I'm fresh out for now ?
Daughter snapped a few photos tonight though.
#horses&goats matter.. Lol
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.f bcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13731502_10209012565222748_7210206805400827485_n.jpg?oh=4c2ee9eb9a416e967f1c0cf1a026960c&oe=5828FB71
https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/l/t1.0-9/13669803_10209012570782887_6822164405991382015_n.jpg?oh=ec81d893a1fe532bf49bf7cd4598cf96&oe=582C9976
[ July 17, 2016, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2016, 04:18 AM:
So now you are a member of the Bucolic Landed Gentry? Them critters sure are cute. What kind of a sound do they make? I see they are still dragging that rope around. Sleep in the bed with ya, once in a while?
Any delayed bad news about your recent property purchase? I remember Danny Batistini sure had some bad luck buying a little spread to call his own. I think there is an establishment up in Idaho that still has his game trophies on the wall after a deal didn't turn out like he expected. New Mexico was similar except at least he boxed his call collection and donated it to Foxpro.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ July 18, 2016, 07:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 18, 2016, 06:09 AM:
We've been there eight months now LB, so far so good. Yeah, I still have 'em on leashes, they like to dash to the road on occasion. Helps to grab a hold of the little rascals ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
One time, I didn't get the back door closed tight, sure enough in the house they go. Yeah, they probably would like to sleep in there
They make that baah, baah, sound.
[ July 18, 2016, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on July 18, 2016, 07:04 PM:
I'd rather have a bad ride on a horse any day over a good walk.
My goat(kid) one time got through the back door ran into the house hit the kitchen chair skidded across the kitchen table went down the other side turned around and went back across before mom kicked us both out of the house. lol
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 19, 2016, 04:05 AM:
I don't know earthwalker, my neighbor had a "bad" horseride...
2 summers ago, she was riding and something spooked her horse. She ended up getting drug and sustained a very serious skull injury.
She was in rehab and the hospital for months. She is not the same person anymore by a longshot. She can live on her own, kinda. But lost custody of her kids and can't do her former job anymore.
Last spring, I was talking with her and a jet was flying over and she looked up and commented on the geese flying.... I feel sorry for her because I think she knows she's not right in the head anymore, but can't do anything about it.
I realize many things could caused her injury, but 1000 lb animals with brains the size of a pea seem to raise the odds.
Posted by earthwalker (Member # 4177) on July 19, 2016, 05:09 AM:
The reason is most of these stupid women think they are riding a giant dog. Most of the horses aren't broke, and the riders are novices.
I look and look at horses on Craigslist and they are anywhere from 6-10 year old horses that haven't ever been ridden.
My first horse was a 6 year old gelding. I rode him with a halter and bareback for years. He taught me how to get on and how to ride. If not he'd put me on the ground from brushing me off on fence posts spooking from anything. Most of these horses are not ridden daily and worked with. They are just giant pasture eaters.
I'm sorry for your friend. Horses can and will hurt you big time. Had enough stepped on toes from them. Had a shetland pony rear over on top of me on time. There was a roll of barbed wire in the grass. It scratched my back 3 nice big scratches. I still carry those scares from back then. All my scares protrude.
I guess all my horses were solid types. I did have a few rotten ones. But most of the time a horse needs miles of riding and I mean miles.
[ July 19, 2016, 05:18 AM: Message edited by: earthwalker ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2016, 06:18 AM:
Most, (well, some) of my friends up in Mormon Lake favored a length of 2X4 to get their horse's attention. Never knew it was coming, either. You know, a dog will react as soon as he sees you moving towards the stick. Ol' Dobbin just barely notices he has company, the smarter ones. And, they can kill ya accidentally or intentionally. What we have here is a failure to communicate.
Good hunting. El Bee
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