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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2014, 02:08 PM:
 
Cops Kill Man In Wal-Mart Carrying An Air Rifle That He Might Have Planned To Buy
3:35 PM 08/07/2014

A man who was carrying an air rifle in an Ohio Wal-Mart told the police officers that fatally shot him that the gun was “not real,” according to a family member.

John Crawford was shot by police Tuesday evening at a Beavercreek store. The Ohio attorney general’s office announced Thursday that he was merely carrying a brand of air rifle that Wal-Mart sells.

Another shopper, 37-year-old Angela Williams, collapsed and died as she scrambled to get away after police fired at Crawford.

The shooting occurred after police responded to 911 calls about a man carrying a rifle. In one of those calls, which was released by police, a Wal-Mart shopper told emergency dispatchers that it looked like the man — later identified as Crawford — was trying to load the rifle and that he had pointed it at two children, WHIO reported.

The 911 caller’s wife said that Crawford was on the phone and that he was messing with the gun. She said that after police ordered Crawford to put down the unidentified weapon, “I heard two shots after I saw him turn. He still had the weapon in his hand.”

But Crawford’s family says that there is no way he intended to harm anyone that night.

LeeCee Johnson, who has two children with Crawford and is pregnant with a third, said that she was on the phone with him while the incident unfolded.

She told the Dayton Daily News that Crawford told officers that the gun he was carrying was “not real.”

“We was just talking,” said Johnson. “He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were.”

“And the next thing I know, he said ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him.”

Johnson, who had not yet told Crawford that she was pregnant with their third child, said that she could hear him crying and screaming.

Beavercreek police chief Dennis Evers stood by his officers’ actions, saying that they fired after Crawford failed to comply with their commands to drop the air rifle. He asked Ohio attorney general Mike DeWine and the Bureau of Criminal Investigation to open an investigation into the shooting.

In a statement Thursday, DeWine provided the latest details.

“BCI Investigators on the case report witnesses say the man was carrying a weapon Tuesday night inside a Beavercreek store,” reads DeWine’s statement.

“The weapon was an MK-177 (.177 caliber) BB/Pellet Rifle, manufactured by Crosman. It is known as a ‘variable pump air rifle.’”

Reached by The Daily Caller, a spokeswoman for DeWine said she could not yet comment on whether the air rifle was from the Wal-Mart or if Crawford had brought it in himself.

But an Internet search of Wal-Mart’s website shows that it does indeed sell Crosman MK-177 air rifles. The price is listed at $100.83.

“He does not own (a rifle-like weapon),” Lamon Brown, Crawford’s cousin, told the Dayton Daily News before DeWine’s office announced the brand of rifle Crawford was carrying. “We think it was a toy.”

The family has contacted the NAACP as well as the National Action Network. Crawford, 22, was black.

The two officers involved in the shooting have been placed on paid administrative leave during the investigation.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 07, 2014, 03:00 PM:
 
Sickening, indeed.
But from what I've read on the incident, I have to give the cops a pass.
What part of "PUT DOWN THE WEAPON" (Command voice) is too friggen complicated to understand ????
It's pretty simple;
When a cop is POINTING A GUN AT YOU and giving you a DIRECT ORDER..................do what he tells you to do.
If you're in the wrong, you'll be alive to have it explained to you.
If you're in the right, you can sue.
Either way, let the attorneys work it out.

Edit; Better yet............Don't put yourself in a position were cops point guns at you in the first place !!!!!!

[ August 07, 2014, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Kokopelli ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2014, 03:30 PM:
 
Yes, we know. But some people do not comprehend the command, the threat and the danger. Now, you would think two cops should recognize what the hell an air rifle looks like. You would think two cops should be able to see a non threatening attitude, as opposed to a wild eyed "turd" that appears to want murder and mayhem and /or willing to die right then and there and take as many cops with him as he can.

Could it be trigger happy cops wanting action? Could it be, they had no choice? Obviously, behind a barrier, right? And neither of them can see what is a relatively harmless pellet gun? I don't know folks? I'm not going with the Chief's opinion, completely justified killing. I think these guys need to use a little restraint, it's already two agains one and they have at least thirty rounds between them in their Glocks versus a single shot pellet rifle.

Makes me sick. Real sick.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 07, 2014, 05:26 PM:
 
This is what I don't get...was the air rifle in a package? (Probly not?)

And was he pointing it at the cops? Probly not? So...if he is standing there non threatening like, why can't you draw down on him and just walk forward, get closer to him, and assess the threat a bit more? If he makes a sudden stupid move, then maybe put a round in him.

Again, I just don't understand how trigger happy cops can't use their heads a bit more. Instead of putting 71 rounds in a guy for nothing...and shit like that.
Am I way off base?

Edit: I didn't see the part about the 911 calls saying he pointed gun at children.

[ August 07, 2014, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on August 07, 2014, 05:29 PM:
 
You would think there were a few witnesses that observed this guy prior to the store being cleared out, or maybe some customers did indeed see what went down. Not taking sides here, but that model of pellet gun looks just like an FN Herstal SCAR.
 

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Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on August 07, 2014, 05:36 PM:
 
Forgot to add:
What prompted the 911 call? Some anti-gun, nervous whack job seeing a guy looking at a gun? Or someone that truly believed some ugly shit was about to happen?
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on August 07, 2014, 05:49 PM:
 
Let's not forget, he basically ignored the cops while talking on his cell phone. Heck I've wanted to shoot people in Walmart for the same reason, figuratively speaking.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2014, 06:31 PM:
 
I'm not forgetting anything. Ignoring cops shouting at you still doesn't mean he should pay the price. What if he was as hard of hearing as I am? Ignoring cops is not a valid reason to start blasting, but that's just me.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 07, 2014, 08:03 PM:
 
Point a toy gun that looks real at my kids and I might just shoot you with a real gun.

Anyone who is walkng around Walmart pointing a gun real or not, ignores orders to put it down after responding "it's not real", deserves to get shot. If he wasn't smart enough to see how that one was gonna play out, he shouldn't have been let out without supervision.
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 08, 2014, 03:22 AM:
 
I agree with Leonard, even though it appears that maybe the facts aren't all in, or in the very least,...fuzzy?
This whole thing stinks of poor judgement and over reaction.
But, what else is new, right?

I did a quick google images search of that Crossman Mk .177 hoping it was at least visually obvious it was a pellet gun. Unfortunately, it isn't. It really does look just like a SCAR.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 08, 2014, 04:34 AM:
 
LOSE/LOSE situation.

That appears to be another "perfect storm of fuckup", where shoulda, woulda, coulda, isn't applicable...

Sometimes, bad shit happens, and there's no real 'side' to align with that's less accountable. And there will never be enough laws to protect someone from their own stupidity. Or, someone else's...

People, by default, do stupid shit, from time to time. Get enough of them to interact in one place, and the "perfect storm of fuckup" can develop without warning...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 08, 2014, 07:57 AM:
 
Now, that's useful advice, google the fucking pellet rifle. Which I just did. That damned thing is an abortion!

So, I can see a couple of the finer points I was not aware of. I last had a Crossman pellet rifle 40 years ago and it didn't look like the one in question.

I think I'm starting to understand. The demeanor issue didn't change but the fear of the image, like discovering a rattlesnake in bed with you. That sure as hell changes.

Now, all I have left is, it just didn't register with the stupid person that these adrenaline juiced cops are on autopilot and he's a split second from eternity unless he drops the stupid "gun".

I'm sorry I brought it up. <sigh>

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on August 08, 2014, 08:02 AM:
 
I just looked at the picture of the Crossman Mk .177. That kind'a changes things. There really isn't a way to tell it's a pellet gun. I'm pretty sure most cops would shoot the idiot if he was waving that gun about and ignoring them. Sounds like the guy that got shot was a complete idiot and natural selection took place. I'm telling you right now if I had a firearm in my hands, and some idjit came up to me in any kind of threatening way with that Crossman Mk .177. I wouldn't be trying to get a close look at whether it was a pellet gun or not. I'd shoot the sucker too! His wife flat out stated he was "messing around". Mess around like that and I don't have a sense of humor.

[ August 08, 2014, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: ursus21 ]
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 08, 2014, 08:16 AM:
 
And that brings up another question...what happens to the average Joe, who carries legally, and shoots this guy because he or she believes sincerly there is a threat to family or the public...same as cops do?

btw, California is going to pass law to make sure all air guns have some sort of colored tip or something, to prevent this kind of stuff..which I thought was law already?

[ August 08, 2014, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 08, 2014, 10:19 AM:
 
That was actually my intent for googling the image, was to see if it had that orange tip.
I guess it's just toy guns that get that..??
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 08, 2014, 10:52 AM:
 
Yep, your right.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 08, 2014, 12:09 PM:
 
49 would be proud of you Leonard.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 08, 2014, 01:12 PM:
 
Really? That's so nice of you! Seriously.

Well, you know the "MEDIA". Stir up controversy, omit details, invent facts, etc. Silly me, thinking a Crossman pellet rifle has not evolved.

I am reminded of the traditional rifle versus the "AR" phenomena. And, everyone knows how I feel about that, BLACK EVIL LOOKING WEAPON OF WAR, etc. I KNOW what they are and how they work but see no reason why they drifted away from something traditional looking like a Remington 760, or a Browning Auto.

What's the mystic with the combat configuration? People love it and other people hate it. And, we are losing the "Low Information Voter" who looks and sees an ASSAULT RIFLE. He/She doesn't care or appreciate the semi-auto distinction, he sees military hardware.

So, that's my reservation, a lot of guys are playing soldier with their AR on a coyote stand, even if it makes sense. And, here is something that I feel is along the same lines. We have an intimidating LOOKING "firearm" so confusing looking that some dumb shit gets killed over it.

49, whatever happened to him? Did he join a Monastery? Or, did Curling Fever finally cause him to move north? If you see him on Glock Talk, say "hi" for me.

Good hunting. El Bee

[ August 08, 2014, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 08, 2014, 02:28 PM:
 
Gee this was a terrible mistake, another hood rat down and the poor cops have to deal with shooting another unarmed man. According to WCPO News (Cincinnati),the dead man (Crawford) was playing video games in a local Walmart while his girlfriend #2 (Tasha Thomas) was shopping. When Crawford finished his video game he went into the sporting goods section and saw a .177 cal pellet rifle, opened the package and began pretending to shoot other shoppers and their children. According to his other girlfriend #1 (Lee Cee Johnson) who was home and pregnant (by Johnson) with their third child, and on the phone witz her man using her free govt. paid cell phone, said she heard da cops tellz her man to dropz da gun, but daz opened fire befo he could dropz da gun, even though he told da copz it wasn't real. Miss Johnson added dat da cops coulda shot him witz ah tazer or ah pistol and didn't has ta kills him! She added dat da naacp was lookin into dis matta.

I have mixed emotions about this terrible mistake to say the least...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 08, 2014, 03:25 PM:
 
....that, or we need a "rubber bullet" policy. As in our new alternative to "botched lethal injections". Rubber bullet firing squads, especially in the 'hood. Step one, outlaw lead bullets, step two outlaw copper bullets, step three, only "non lethal" bullets allowed, henceforth. Think like a Liberal. Or, whatever it is that they do?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 08, 2014, 04:48 PM:
 
I hate to say this, just in case some turd hasn't already thought of it and my saying it just gives the turd the idea, but passing a law that says all air soft-type "guns" have to have an orange muzzle is so typically liberal. I could get me a bottle of orange model paint, paint the muzzle of my AR and go ape shit at the local Wally World before anyone put 2 and 2 together.

I looked up that air rifle myself and have to say that there appears to plenty of blame to go around. Wonder if the folks who designed and marketed that little gem had any idea something like this might happen.

Then again, there is a growing demographic in this country who seems clueless to the term "consequences".
 

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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 08, 2014, 05:39 PM:
 
Yikes! Diabolocal!
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 28, 2014, 07:34 PM:
 
Kind of digging this post up, but...
I was walking down the aisle of an Academy sports today, and this caught my eye, and I immediately thought of this post...

They look darn real to me!




 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 29, 2014, 07:38 AM:
 
Thanks for that, duck dog.

Very interesting, had no idea this shit was going on!

Having said that, I also don't have a solution? But, the situation is begging for some kind of solution.

Upon reflection, back when I was roaming the neighborhood with a BB Gun, I didn't think twice, and probably nobody that saw me thought twice. There were suspicious cratered holes in windows, here and there, but not caused by me, I was just slightly more responsible than that. But I was not above killing a robin or squirrel that got in my way.

The world has changed. America has changed, for sure, and I'm not sure all of it would be called "progress"? I knew exactly what a "google" was, when I was 15 years old, and of course, did nothing worthwhile about it. I sure as hell think the general population has become a lot more stupid in the last 50 years.

When I went to school, it involved education. There is no doubt that todays average college graduate is no more than an illiterate chump. The under thirty crowd is especially clueless. Especially if they played football. Geography is not taught; who needs to know where Iraq is? Other than, it's across a large body of water. Yes, I know that 13 year olds know a hell of a lot more about computers and app for their Android than I do. So fucking what?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on August 29, 2014, 09:48 AM:
 
Thanks for posting the pic's Kevin.

I had no idea they made BB guns that look like that ? Not sure what to say.
 

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Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 29, 2014, 07:48 PM:
 
I'm kind of like you two...
I really don't know what to say. I would never be one to say we need new or more laws about anything, but unless these are treated like real firearms, I can sure see these type of mix ups happening more frequently.

I use to run rampant with my pellet gun when I was a kid. I'd say bull frogs were the main staple, but I wreaked havoc on the local red wing black bird population too! And, they fought back!
Horse flies and grasshoppers on the side of the sheds were always a fun challenge too...
And, a kid ought to still be able to do just that, but I sure wouldn't put one of THOSE in my kids hands in this day and age and just turn them loose.
It's like you say LB,...the world has changed.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on August 30, 2014, 08:05 AM:
 
I guess, I do know what to say. I'm sad. It's an upside down world we live in Amigo's.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on August 30, 2014, 07:36 PM:
 

quote:

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49 would be proud of you Leonard.

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