This is topic I know Jim will like this... in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004000
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 04, 2014, 02:25 PM:
Velvety goodness!
I'll post some of the good ones later ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
- DAA
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on August 04, 2014, 04:15 PM:
Very nice!
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on August 04, 2014, 06:27 PM:
There's some cool deer there Dave!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 05, 2014, 03:21 AM:
Here's some more of them.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 05, 2014, 03:34 AM:
Yowza!
That last pic, looks like those tines are stacked off the main beams like a whitetail's rack?!?
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 05, 2014, 04:25 AM:
So much so that a couple chills ran through me. I like that buck with the white tail rack too! Hope he lives long enough to realize his full potential. I bet he will be something crazy cool, if he does. Thanks, Dave!!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 05, 2014, 04:31 AM:
Speaking of crazy cool, this one is along those lines I think.
Few more...
- DAA
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 05, 2014, 04:42 AM:
Damn!!!!
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on August 05, 2014, 06:57 AM:
Wow!!! Nice ones!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 05, 2014, 07:04 AM:
That's a hybrid. I have never seen one, but they started talking about mule/whitetail crosses back in Kansas? several years ago. And, I have seen whitetails , rather common actually, up in
Cor'delane never could spell that town, it's way up in Idaho, not far from Spokane, WA. And they say the whitetail bucks are more aggressive, don't know? And they are tramps, will mount anything, hence weird looking deer with black tails. Seem bigger than those scrawny Texas deer, more like Virginia Whitetails. Hell, I don't know?
But, hard to believe, in Utah, a state I have hunted quite a bit in the past.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by ursus21 (Member # 3556) on August 05, 2014, 08:13 AM:
I know that buck looks like a hybrid, but if I had to make a very educated guess, I'd say that is impossible where that buck was photographed. Probably not a whitetail within 300 miles of those deer. Am I close on that guess Dave?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 05, 2014, 08:46 AM:
I'm thinking the same Troy. Nothing is impossible, but, in the Henrys? Seems terribly unlikely.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 05, 2014, 10:53 AM:
Like I said above, hard to believe? And, personally, I have not seen whitetails in Utah. But, I guess I won't believe my lying eyes? I don't remember seeing a location along with the photos so how we know it's within 300 miles of anything?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 05, 2014, 11:50 AM:
All quite simple, really.
Climate Change in the form of Global Warming has caused eddies in the Gene Pool resulting in mutations such as we are seeing. While more study is warranted and more Government Funding is needed, the early evidence indicates that it's Bush's fault.
Eh ?? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 05, 2014, 11:56 AM:
There are a few whitetail in Utah, along the Bear River drainage specifically - they've been slowly moving in for decades and decades. And there have been scattered reports of hybrids here and there all over the place for as long as I can remember. A friend of my Dad's killed a hybrid, verified as such by the DWR, on Monroe Mountain in central Utah, 30 years ago.
So, like I said, nothing is impossible. The Henrys are really, really isolated though. Not a good migration corridor from anywhere. You've got the big rivers, the big canyons, the big dry deserts on all sides for a long ways. It was the last mountain range in the lower 48 to even be named, or mapped. Just too damn hard to get to!
But, I've seen more than a handful of mulies with antlers similar to that over the years, in a lot of places. My thinking - and I have zero "knowledge" - just my thinking, but if that's the only indicator, if the rest of the animal looks 100% mule deer, I'm going with it is 100% mule deer. Antlers do all kinds of funky stuff. I've seen several mulies with antlers palmated like a moose.
- DAA
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on August 05, 2014, 12:32 PM:
quote:
That's a hybrid. I have never seen one, but they started talking about mule/whitetail crosses back in Kansas? several years ago.
You could be right, LB…when I saw that rack, I did a double take just like Fred did and thought it might be a hybrid.
Where I grew up in Russell, Kansas, we are right at the Eastern most edge of the mule deer range in Kansas. I have seen quite a few deer shot in that area that showed characteristics of hybrids…mule deer chevrons on the face and mulie ears and tails with whitetail racks, as well as whitetail faces and tails with mule deer type racks with forks.
I have seen whitetail bucks breeding mulie does. The whitetail bucks are much more aggressive, running the bigger racked mulies off and tending the does.
The interesting question is if the hybrids can breed or not?…no one has ever answered that question for me.
[ August 05, 2014, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: booger ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 05, 2014, 01:03 PM:
Depends. I'm a hybrid, French, Polish and two Germans. But, I did manage to breed. To German/Irish of all things!
I don't know, Dave? All mulie characteristics, with a whitetail rack? Doesn't seem fair? Next thing you know, there's no such thing as coy dogs.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on August 05, 2014, 08:25 PM:
To my eye, the only whitetail characteristic is the rack, which, as Dave mentioned is unusual, but not unheard of or seen now and again.
The metatarsal gland is the give away, it is placed correctly and of the right length and size to distinguish it as a mule deer. The metatarsal gland is unique to each of the species, mule deer, high and long, whitetail is lower and short.
In Arizona, I believe they take that characteristic into consideration when determining a hunters buck species, if that hunter believed it to be a cross or hybrid?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 06, 2014, 08:26 AM:
Seriously? We need to glass those canyons and hillsides for metatarsal glands rather than the single item (antlers) that normally separates the bucks from the does? This is way beyond my skill set.
A guy dresses up in high heels and a tight dress, wears makeup and fake padding in his bra. However, if you pick up his skirt and pull down his panties, (I'm a simple man) He still looks like a male, to me.
The single thing is the rack, and when we are talking millions of bucks; "forget that whitetail rack, Stupid! Can't you see that metatarsal, plain as day?"
If it looks like a duck, etc. What our learned deer hunters are suggesting is, "Hey, pure blooded mules can, (occasionally) have a rack that appears to be just like a white tail deer."
This is way beyond my pay grade.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on August 06, 2014, 03:44 PM:
Awesome pics, as usual! Thanks for sharing. I'm putting my money on that questionable buck as being pure Muley.....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 06, 2014, 04:10 PM:
I sure look outvoted? <sob> You guys are mean.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 06, 2014, 04:39 PM:
Mr. LB, I'd shoot any one of those bucks, without a 2nd thought!
But, if I had to think about it, I'd like to whack the 'crazy cool' traditional lookin' Muley, the one with the junk points sticking off the right side...
What are the odds of drawing a tag in that area, Dave?
Or is that a "pay to play" managed unit?
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on August 06, 2014, 04:59 PM:
Unless you have accumulated several points, ked, you have better odds of being struck by lightning.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 06, 2014, 07:50 PM:
Well, I keep forgetting. If Vic says so; he who taught the great JohnHenry everything he knows, then I guess that deer with the weird headgear is just a mule, with a clown 8 pt. rack. Case closed, ok?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 07, 2014, 03:20 AM:
Six on one side thee on the other, actually. The big side has a cheater that makes it six. Hard to see from these pictures though!
Fred, I'd have to look it up online, but I think the straight draw odds are somewhere around 275 to 1. Think you needed 18 bonus points (you get 1 each year you fail to draw) to be sure of drawing this year. "Point creep" just keeps getting worse though. So, if you were just starting now, it would probably be well over 20 points needed to draw by the time you got there.
I drew a tag for the Books a few years ago, so I only have 1 bonus point now (can't put in for 2 years after you draw). At my age, I honestly don't expect to live long enough to draw this tag. So I'm not even putting in for it. I'm trying for an archery tag across the street from there on Elk Ridge, I MIGHT get that one in only 15 years. And I MIGHT both live that long and still be healthy enough for a solo archery hunt...
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 07, 2014, 03:21 AM:
A P.S... I don't think you can buy your way into a tag for this unit either. I could be wrong though, money always seems to find a way.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 07, 2014, 03:52 AM:
Thanks, Dave.
I wouldn't dream of coughing up big bucks for a big buck, even if I had the means. Managing herds is one thing, but the 'pay to play' hunt stuff goes against my better judgement. Governor's tags and moss-back guides, no thanks!
Didn't know if that was the case, in that area. Hope you DO get drawn for your tag!!!
Was the last hunt you went on, the one where you had that close encounter with the big tom lion?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 07, 2014, 04:32 AM:
No, that was, four, five years ago? I've been every year since.
This year, I'm practically not going though. Long story made short, I'm just about given up on deer hunting in Utah. Not bowhunting at all this year. Going to do a one day rifle hunt right behind the state capitol building. Used to get some decent buck up there, way back in the day. Bitch of a hike in though and a triple bitch of a hike back out with a deer!
May well be my last Utah deer until until/unless I draw a decent tag.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2014, 07:02 AM:
Dave. How long have we known each other? Now, Fred, the new guy slips and mentions an encounter with a lion. I have not heard that. Why? 'splain me.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 07, 2014, 07:23 AM:
Oh, hell, that lion thing, that was just too damn cool. Had one follow me for about 45 minutes. We maintained eye contact for most of that time. Great big son of a bitch too.
The thing that made it so neat though, is I stalked that sucker! Snuck right up on him. Had him dead to rights with my bow - both of us on the ground, mind you. No tag though, so I didn't let the arrow fly. Well, after I had decided not to kill him and he was free to leave, the fucker didn't! Started coming closer, even. We played cat and mouse with me being the mouse for awhile after that.
I have the whole thing written up and saved. I'll look for it and post the whole thing later. It's a long read. But I wrote it all down right after it happened, for my family to read and for me to remember it as the years go by. It was one of those experiences that you don't want to forget.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on August 07, 2014, 08:56 AM:
Okay, here's the lion thing, copied and pasted from when I wrote it right after it happened four years ago next weekend.
It's LONG! Sorry about that...
-----------------------------------
It’s opening morning of the 2010 mule deer archery season and I’m taking a hike I’ve taken dozens of times before. My preferred method of bow hunting is to spot and stalk. But due to my chronic lack of patience, I actually end up spending more time still hunting, just sneaking through the forest seeing what I can see, than I do practicing spot and stalk.
Anyway… I parked my ATV before light at the end of a rough trail above my camp and then hiked about one and a half miles, gaining about 1,500 feet in elevation, to my destination. A spot where I have a view down into a 10,000 foot saddle between two major drainages. I’ve been hunting this area for 20 years and this is my favorite spot. It’s far enough from the roads and ATV trails that I rarely see another hunter and animals use that saddle between the two major drainages a lot. And I also have great views into multiple bedding areas below the saddle. My usual routine is to sit up there all morning and glass the bedding areas and if I spot an animal I want to try for, to attempt a stalk. Or, if I see a buck moving over the saddle that I want to go for, I try to intercept him. And if all this fails, I spend the rest of the day just still hunting my way back down to where my ATV is parked.
On this particular morning, I spotted a few small bucks in the bedding areas, but nothing worth making a stalk on and nothing but does and a lonesome cow elk moved across the saddle. So, by about 10am, I was ready to move out and start hunting my way back down. I moved down to the saddle and then just up from it to a shoulder of the mountain above one of the major draws on one side of the saddle. I moved slowly down this ridge, sneaking out to the edge every 100 yards or so to peer down into the quaking aspens below. These quakies are prime bedding area and I was hoping to spot a bedded buck to stalk from above.
Pretty soon, I reached a spot where the ridge top is bare rocky ground, with a steep, bare rocky hillside dropping down about 90 yards to a flat shoulder covered in quaking aspens on the side of the ridge. I’ve spotted nice bucks bedded in those quakies before and had a couple neat stalks here over the years. So, my anticipation level was very high as I sneaked up to the edge to peak down into the aspens below.
Right away I spotted a deer colored form directly below me, only 90 yards away. I put my small 7x23 Nikon binoculars to my eyes for a better look. I couldn’t see the head, so I couldn’t tell if it was a buck or a doe, but it was definitely a big bodied deer. As I sat there glassing it though, it just didn’t look right. It was laying in full sunlight, even though there was shade and cover to be had just a few feet away. And the position it was laying in, I wasn’t sure, but it looked like it was laying on it’s side. Deer don’t usually bed down lying on their side… I couldn’t see the head and was actually not even totally sure which end was the head. I watched it through my binocs for a few minutes hoping it would move and give me a view of the head, but I never saw it move even the slightest bit.
My mind went back to something that happened many, many years earlier, very similar situation, where I had “stalked” a bedded deer only to find it was already dead! Someone had made a bad hit on it and it had escaped, to lie down and die in a high lonely spot, only for me to spot it and stalk it a day or two later. Once I thought about that, I noticed that the color of this deer seemed a bit off, kind of like it had been dead a day or two and it was starting to deteriorate? The more I looked at this deer, the more I started to wonder if maybe I wasn’t looking at a dead deer?
It was a big bodied rascal though, well above the average body size for deer in the area and although I had a suspicion it might be dead, I certainly didn’t “know” that, so I decided to make a serious stalk on it. Even though, at this point, I did not even know whether it was a buck, a doe, dead or alive.
Since I couldn’t see the head, I hoped it couldn’t see me either, so I went for a direct approach, right down the steep rocky hillside right towards it. I went super slow, like molasses dripping down the hill and the rocky ground made for silent footing. At 50 yards, I stopped for a laser ranging and another reconnoiter with the binocs. Still not a twitch and I still wasn’t even positive which end was the head, although I was pretty sure the head was to my right, hidden from my view behind the trunk of a large quakie.
I very, very slowly crept down another 10 yards. Took another laser reading, 41 yards. Close enough, I was now inside my “confident kill zone”. I was sure I could kill it cleanly from where I was standing now. IF it was a buck, which I still didn’t know! I came to full draw, nestled my 40 yard pin to where I thought was the front third of the body, then with the toe of my left foot I nudged a fist sized rock loose from the steep hillside. The rock only rolled about 10 inches and only made a very small noise, but, for the first time, I saw movement! I clearly saw the haunch contract and tense up. It was alive after all!
And it was about to stand up.
At this point, I KNEW it was a nice buck. The body was just too darn big not to be. The area it was bedded in is a spot I’ve found big bucks bedded several times before. All I needed was for it to stand up and show me it’s head and I was going to loose an arrow through its heart.
I was so confident of what was about to happen, that in that brief instant after I saw it tense up it’s haunch in preparation of standing, I mentally chastised myself for leaving my pack frame back at the ATV. I was already thinking about the long hike to go get it and come back to pack this big buck out…
So, I’m standing there at full draw, I’ve just kicked a stone to make some noise and seen the deer tense up before standing, maybe one third of a second has passed, then, in one fluid movement, he stands up, moves his head from behind the tree to look at me --- and takes two, quick, long steps up hill TOWARDS ME.
And…
It’s NOT a buck…
In fact, it’s NOT EVEN A DEER…
It’s a gawd dam MOUNTAIN LION! And a BIG ONE TOO!!!
Realization is instant. But I’m not disappointed. This is COOL! I’ve just stalked to within 41 yards of a lion. How much cooler does it get?!
I’ve seen a dozen lions in the wild before this one, but never one this close. And this one is EASILY the biggest I’ve ever seen. Bigger even than the ones I’ve seen at the zoo. I have a number in my mind, how many pounds I think he weighs. But, I don’t want to say that number. It will sound slightly hysterical. And, maybe I AM hysterical. Maybe the other ten or twelve lions I’ve seen before this one were all small. Maybe it’s just because I’m so close to this one. Maybe it’s because I’m a long way from any possible help, I’m camped alone, nobody knows where I am, I’m armed only with a bow and this lion is looking me right in the eyes and isn’t running away, maybe that’s why he seems so big. Whatever the case may be, all I will say, is that without any doubt, he is definitely the biggest one that I have ever seen by a considerable margin.
The thought of loosing my arrow does cross my mind. But I immediately decide against it. I don’t feel threatened. Not yet…
After those first two long steps in my direction, he froze. As far as I can perceive, he is literally not moving a muscle. Absolutely frozen, statue still, staring right at me.
I’m still at full draw, my 40 yard pin dancing an ellipse around his nose and eyes. After deciding I’m not going to let that arrow go, I let down my draw. I’m expecting him to bolt. Every other lion I have ever encountered, including the ones I have called in with prey distress sounds, have all made themselves scarce as soon as they have become aware of my presence. So far though, this one has not…
Even though we are only 40 yards apart, I raise my binoculars to my eyes to get an even better look at him. I’m struck by three things. One, is just how BIG he is. Second, how absolutely motionless and still he is. But third, and of much more immediate interest is how HUGE and INTENSE his eyes are, and that they are ABSOLUTELY FOCUSED ON ME…
Still, I am waiting, expecting, for him to turn and leave. But, he doesn’t. And he doesn’t, and he doesn’t… We sit there looking at each other like that for a full FIFTEEN MINUTES, during which time I’ve raised my binoculars several times, raised my bow several times, he still, to the best of my ability to observe, has literally not moved a single muscle. He has just been frozen like a statue the whole time.
I’m starting to get just a little bit concerned… Now, really, I’m not freaking out, I’m not really “scared”, but, for crying out loud, he’s been standing there only 40 yards away, staring at me, for fifteen freaking minutes now. I’ve been looking through my binocs, kneeling down, standing back up, drawing and aiming my bow then letting back down, through it all, he hasn’t even twitched.
Finally, I’ve had all the observation I need by this time. I’ve also decided that he is NOT going to run off like I had been expecting. Like I said, I’m not freaking out about it, but, I am most definitely “concerned”. I’m remembering the things I’ve read about “twitching tails” and such, he’s not doing that, he’s not moving at all. So, I’m not “really freaking out”, but, I decide it’s time for ME to leave.
So, I start backing up the steep rocky hillside, back the way I had come. Literally, “backing up”, not turning my back on the lion, continuing to make eye contact with him, walking backwards up this steep rocky hillside. When I had backed up about 20 yards, now 60 yards from the lion, I reached a steeper portion of the hill, sort of a “bulge” before the top. Keeping in mind that I had a razor sharp broadhead nocked, my release attached to my string loop, both hands very occupied, I didn’t feel like I could walk backwards up this portion. I really needed to turn around and go up it forwards. So, I took a deep breath, turned my back on the lion and scrambled up the last 20 yards of steep rocky hillside as fast as I could.
As soon as I reached the top, I spun around and looked back down. The lion was gone! Well… He wasn’t where I had last seen him, anyway… From where I now stood, I could see the bottom of the hill where the lion had been standing. But, that last steep section, like I said, it was kind of a “bulge” in the hillside and was blocking my view of the hillside between where the lion had been and where I was now. I couldn’t see the section I had “backed up”.
I had to know… So I tip toed back out towards the edge a few paces, to where I could see the whole way down.
Sunofabeech… That lion was coming up the hill towards me!
As soon as I peeked over, he saw me and froze again.
Now we were separated by about 65 yards. BEYOND my “confident kill zone”. Even under the best of circumstances, I don’t have much confidence in making a clean killing shot with my bow at 65 yards. Under the current circumstances, no confidence at all…
I still was not “freaking out”. Not nearly. I still didn’t “really” feel “threatened”. Or “scared”. Not really… Nothing like the time I had all but sheet my pants in a black bear encounter 15 years earlier, not more than 800 yards from where I now stood. But, no doubt, my “concern” was now raised a few notches. Put it this way – I was not happy with the situation…
Another five minutes passed as I contemplated the situation.
Hanging an arrow in him was no longer a viable option. At 65 yards, the distance was too great, especially since my pulse was up just a bit and my nerves a bit unsettled. To retreat back on to the ridge top behind me, into the trees, would mean losing visual contact with the lion. I didn’t like that idea either.
So, I took my pocket knife from my front pants pocket and opened it, then put it in the breast pocket of my shirt where it would be easier to get to, then started making my way further down the ridge, right on the edge where I could maintain a view down towards the lion. Still half expecting him to bolt, or at least stay put as I moved off while still keeping an eye on him. Instead, he started moving too, along the bottom of the bare rocky hillside as I moved along the top, keeping abreast of me, maintaining roughly the same distance, 60 to 70 yards.
I took another five minutes moving about 150 yards down the ridge, with the lion pacing me the whole way. Finally though, I reached a spot where the rocky hill side was starting to taper down. Continuing the way I was going, assuming the lion kept going too, was going to bring us together if I moved another 75 yards. I didn’t like that idea…
So I sat there for awhile again. And the lion sat there again too. Motionless, just staring a hole through me. I picked up a couple of softball sized rocks and threw them at him. Neither rock really came too close, but both did tumble past within five or ten yards or so of him. He never flinched. Never even looked at the rocks. Just sat there statue still staring at me even as the rocks tumbled past him. So we sat like that for another ten minutes while I decided what I was going to do.
Where I was at now, to retreat into the forest on the ridge top behind me would mean plunging into a tangle of dog hair black pine and dead fall. Nasty stuff. Hard to move through, impossible to see very far in. But back up the ridge 150 yards where this had all started, was a grove of mixed aspen and pine, much more open and easier for me to move and see through. So I decided to back-track to where I had first spotted the lion and then make a break for it back into the forest on the ridge top.
I turned and started back up along the ridge the way I had come down. Damn lion turned and followed, same-same as before, staying abreast of me and maintaining that 60 to 70 yard distance.
Arriving back at the spot it had all begun, it was time for me to shat or get off the pot. About 40 minutes had passed since the lion first saw me and clearly, he wasn’t going to be the one to just leave. I spent at least another five minutes there, getting my stuff in the right pile so to speak, mentally preparing myself to execute my plan. And the plan was, to move back into the quakie patch on the ridge top behind me, 70 yards or so, as quickly as I could. Then turn and watch my back trail. If the lion shows up on the ridge top, trailing me into the trees, I’ve decided I’m going to make a stand and try to either drive him off with loud bluster and bluff, or get real, real serious about hanging an arrow in him.
I made my move. Turned my back on him and sprinted 70 yards or so through the quakies and up a small rise. I turned and looked back the way I had just come. Pleased with my view – no way he was following me unseen. After maybe two minutes, he hadn’t appeared. So I started making haste down the mountain, as much haste as I could carrying a nocked arrow and constantly looking over my shoulder and avoiding any thick stuff.
It was only about a mile from here to my ATV, all downhill. I made it in good time, never saw the lion again. By the time I’d gone half the distance I had even put my arrow back in the quiver and stopped looking over my shoulder so much.
All in all, I would have to rate this as a VERY COOL experience! One of the coolest ever, in fact. Spent a good 45 minutes staring into the eyes of a very large mountain lion at close range. One of those things that happen while out doing this stuff that you always remember.
I didn’t hunt my favorite saddle again for the rest of the trip though…
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 07, 2014, 12:37 PM:
Very good, you are forgiven, but when did Fred replace me on your speed dial?
Good hunting. El Bee
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0