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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 26, 2016, 02:51 PM:
Ok,a question. I am shooting this new beast which is a 6mm Competition Match. It is in basic terms a improved .243. My gunsmith Chad Dixon at Long Rifles Inc told me to make brass in this way. Neck .243 brass up to 6.5 and then neck most of the neck back down to 6mm leaving a donut of 6.5 to cause a crush fit in the chamber so that the brass is supported and there is no bolt thrust and seperating brass problems. Easily done, but my question is this. I'm going to order a bunch of new brass, so why cant I order .260 brass and skip the necking up step. Chad says there is a good chance that it will work fine, but a slight possibility that the necks will be a touch thicker, causing me pressure issues. If I have to turn the necks, I'm back to an additional step that I'm trying to avoid. Comments?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 26, 2016, 04:45 PM:
Good example of one of the reasons I always start a project with the brass already in hand.
Sounds like you need to try some of the .260 and just see. My guess is you'll be fine. But that's pure guess.
What is the chamber neck?
- DAA
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 26, 2016, 05:13 PM:
I don't have the answer to that question off the top of my head Dave. The smith would know.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 26, 2016, 05:45 PM:
Cal, most 'smiths will engrave the chamber neck right next to the chambering. Unless it's standard. If it is standard, you have nothing to worry about.
Was thinking it was probably a bit tighter than that though, like a typical "no turn" about .003 over unturned loaded o.d.
Which, if it has that much room, I doubt you have anything to worry about.
But if it was chambered, say for instance, with .002 clearance, for Lapua brass, specifically, it might have a shot at getting tight with the .260 brass. Even then, I think you'll probably be fine. But if it's tighter than standard, at some point it gets tight enough to be well worth paying attention to!
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 27, 2016, 04:28 AM:
Agree with Dave. You'll have to establish the neck dia. of Chad's reamer first, then see what .260 brass will jive without turning. If any...
Case in point, in my 6x45AI. Smith told me reamer was a .267"nk. I measured some various 6x45 ammo in LC, FC, and Winny brass, and they all measured in the ~.265 range for load rd. nk. dia. Figured that .267 nk. would allow for a near ideal fit for any necked up .223 brass! Or so I thought...
When I get the rifle in hand, I STUPIDLY assume that brand new necked up .223 Lapua brass will allow for the same ~.002" neck clearance in the .267" chamber...
WRONG!
Right off the bat, I'm experiencing a hard bolt close & even blow a primer while load testing. That's when it dawned on me to measure nk. dia. with the new Lapua brass. Sure as shit, my load nk. dia. is .267...SAME AS MY CHAMBER!!!
Even though I knew better, just kinda went on cruise control & assumed that using Lapua brass would be fine. Wound up trashing that whole batch of brass, and skim turning necks to .011" on a new batch of Lapua .223.
For plinking & such, recently loaded & fireformed 100 new necked up Winny brass, and they are right on point @ .265" loaded nk. dia. Just sayin' I found out the hard way that the new 'blue box' .223Lapua brass actually has thicker necks than Lake City! Go figure!?!?
Anyhoo...
Keep neck thickness in mind during brass consideration. If you're thinking of using Lapua .260 brass, be aware that necking them down for the 6CM might actually cause a slight increase in neck thickness.
Good luck!
[ April 27, 2016, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 27, 2016, 04:34 AM:
I do know that my rifle was chambered specifically for Lapua brass. He asked at the beginning of the project if I wanted to shoot Lapua or Winchester as he had two different reamers. My concern was thickening of Lapua brass by necking down the
.260 Lapua stuff.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 27, 2016, 05:09 AM:
Yeah, I tend to agree with the above opinion. Your gunsmith is covering his ass....said in a nice way. I don't know if Lapua makes 260 brass?
If it's basically an improved 243, Cal, what is the distinction, (in your chambering) and the advantage?
But, yeah that little "donut" as you call it is probably worth doing, but only if you are the anal type, (like me) that will happily go through the steps; just because.
If I can glean anything from the name, 6mm Competition Match. then this rifle won't be for hunting? In that case, it pays, to pay attention to detail.
What is a surprise to me is that 260Remington has caught on? The guy I hunted with in Africa had one, and I sorta let on that I wasn't very impressed with the cartridge. On the other hand, he sure liked my 6MM Remington. Everybody has an opinion.
Be sure and check back, we are always interested in new stuff.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 27, 2016, 06:07 AM:
Not at all familiar with Cal's new chambering. But, if forming a false shoulder to hold headspace for fire forming is part of the process, safe to say the shoulder is getting moved forward to increase capacity.
Which, now that I think about it, on a .243 case, isn't going to leave much neck. Which, I'm personally fine with, my .17P has very little neck. It's something a lot of guys take issue with though. Lot of guys have a strong preference for a longer case neck. Very few of them articulate any reasons that make even a little bit of sense, but there is something of an argument to be made concerning throat life.
Anyhow...
Cal, it really sounds like a non-standard chamber neck. If Chad asked which brass you wanted to use. Sounds like a no-turn specific to Lapua. So, for sure, find out that neck diameter. Then fireform some of the .260 with pistol powder, seat a bullet and measure loaded o.d.
That chamber neck really SHOULD be engraved right on that barrel where it is easy to see though. If it ain't, Chad really should start doing that. It is standard practice to always include that with the chambering engraving for any tighter than SAAMI neck, or any wildcat period, and for good reason. It's a safety issue.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 27, 2016, 08:57 AM:
The 6 Comp. Match blows a .243 Win the shoulder forward and out to 31°.
Bascially, it's almost matching a .243AI in capacity, while retaining a bit of taper & modesty in the shoulder angle to keep feeding reliable...
Then, there's the 6mmSLR, which pushes the shoulder of a .243Win back via FL die. This lengthens the neck, removes some body taper and makes a 30° shoulder.
Basically, you're getting a longer neck & sharper shouldered case that nearly matches the .243Win in capacity. Kinda like a 6mmXC, but with a longer body...
Or, ya could just run a .243Win Match chamber and not worry about anything, 'cept for trimming whatever brass you re-coup after shooting a competition or hunting.
Or, ya could run a .243AI and shoot vermin or a match with FF loads, then throttle it up with blown out cases & potentially deal with 9rds in a 10rd mag, and less than butter smooth feeding...
OR, you could build a 6Creedmore, load Hornday brass & shoot.
OR, you could build a 6x47Lapua, neck down 6.5x47L in one pass & shoot.
OR, build a 6mmXC, load Norma brass & shoot away
OR, you could think up some other 6mm version that hasn't already been thunk up, yet!!!
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 27, 2016, 09:58 AM:
LB. it is a hunting rifle, period. I have both a 6 and 22 version of the 6.5x47 lapua and I like them both and thats what I should have stayed with, but LRI didn't have that reamer. But he did have and recommend the 6 Comp Match and I will say it is a nice cartridge. He also makes the sizing die in house. A standard .243 seating die can be used for that. I had the barrel, and my old .243 that needed rebarreled, so out of more boredom than need, I had it put together. It's a 10 twist to shoot 80 to 90 grain bullets in the 34 to 3500 range and that's exactly what it's doing. I will say the 87 V-max at 3450 is a violent combo. It does nasty things to coyotes. So now I am trying the 87 Berger hunting bullet at 3400 and with only 3 coyotes shot I'm not sure about that combo yet. I was just shooting some old .243 lapua brass that I had, but it had been loaded a few times and the primer pockets were going away on a few so I decided I need some new brass and that's where the questions started. Lapua makes both 260 and 243 brass and the cost is the same.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 27, 2016, 10:34 AM:
Thanks, that clears that up, I'm totally up to speed now.
I can see that you are just a little bit like me about all this proliferation shit. To see what I mean, just review what Fred posted. Some of that stuff and the reasons tell me some folks just have too much time on their hands and an urge to drain their bank account.
Those velocities are very good, Amigo. I assume your primer pockets will hold up, we will see? Don't know if you've tried the 70 Nosler Ballistic Tip? If you are looking for @ reasonable coyote hunting distances and a very destructive bullet, I can recommend it.
What we really need right now, Fred, is the 6 Comp. Match with a 32 degree shoulder for a bit more capacity and (hopefully) at least 5 fps more velocity. (total scarcasm) Be the first on your block!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: the fretting over short necks has been going on since they came out with the 300Win Mag. That worry went nowhere, didn't it? That's one thing people swooned about in the 222Remington, such a perfect long neck, far superior to the 223, they tell me?
[ April 27, 2016, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on April 27, 2016, 12:15 PM:
According to my gunsmith who builds a lot of tactical competition rifles, the 6mm Comp Match is a new darling of those competitions. It feeds well, which the 6x47 Lapua is prone not to do, and it has outstanding barrel life if fed single base powders. It is mostly designed for the heavy bullet crowd and most shoot the 105 to 115 class at 3000 to 3200 FPS. I, of course buck the norm by shooting lighter bullets in it. I have shot mostly 65 to 70 grain bullets in every other 6mm caliber rifle I ever played with and am a believer in the fact that "speed Kills". But with this one I decide to try a little higher BC and higher
weight bullet to see how much it really helps wind drift etc.. Both the bullets I have tried have a BC of over .400. It does make some difference I can tell. A few days ago I had a coyote at 309 yards in a gusty 10 to 20 mph wind. I guessed gusts and held into the wind about half a coyote which would be my norm. The way the coyote was standing that put my wind hold at the hip and should have ended up in the chest. It didn't. Right in the guts. What fun! Anyway that is the reasoning for the heavier bullets.
[ April 27, 2016, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 28, 2016, 05:33 AM:
Yes, hard to figure wind here, versus wind over yonder. But, as far as placement, nobody likes gutshot. I have seen one location that seems to kill well, almost as well as a neck or shoulder placement. I have seen a coyote, drilled sideways through the hips with a 243 to die quickly, very little fuss. Must be some vitals in there somewhere?
I know one thing. I really hate a cartridge that won't feed reliably. Whether it's the rifle or the cartridge design, I can't tolerate that shit. I used to have a problem with two different Model 77's and it was (finally discovered) feeding of the second and the fourth round from the staggered magazine. Fixable, once identified.
Sometimes, you just have to train yourself, chambering cartridges with an Ackley shoulder. Not too fast, not too slow.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 28, 2016, 07:16 AM:
Leonard, running an improved/AI'ed case from a single feed detachable magazine really helps with them feeding reliably.
The way an AICS magazine presents a case on center with the chamber requires that the round only needs to ride the feed ramp "up" & into the chamber. This presentation eliminates right or left turn angles, as is the case when feeding from a traditional blind mag/BDL config...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 28, 2016, 07:45 AM:
Very true, Fred. Hadn't thought of it that way, kind of like those CZ's work. A personal preference, but I never really warmed up to the extended magazines and "bottom metal" rigs. But no doubt, single stack magazines eliminate the problem I described.
One thing I have noticed, screwing around with my M&P Shield. It is that they manage to turn a single stack magazine into a staggered magazine, or rather, the reverse. It's quite a contrast with a 1911 style magazine, every cartridge exactly on top of the previous one.
But, in this Shield, the magazine is purposely wide, allowing the cartridges to stagger and allowing room for one more round before they collimate as the next round up the tube. Interesting concept. I like it.
I wonder if something like that could be incorporated into a detachable rifle magazine? Maybe already exists, I don't claim extensive knowledge of lots of different firearms?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on April 28, 2016, 10:47 AM:
Cal I have been running that 87 berger in a 20" 243AI with the suppressor. MV is 3300 with H4350.
Only have 14-15 coyotes with it but so far it seems to kill pretty well.
Kelly
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on April 28, 2016, 11:45 AM:
Leonard, the AICS mags I use are a 'staggered' double stack, with a center feed.
AI also makes an AW mag, which is double stack, double feed. They make for a shorter overall length, but your action needs modified or built to accept the double stack feeding.
Then, there's the old, original AI AE mag, which is single stack, single feed. These will not work with an AI'ed case, as the rib stamped into the side of the mag will hit the sharper shoulder of the case (ask me how I know!)
P.S. I swapped the BDL bottom metal out on my .17Predator, to an AICS based detachable system. Using .223 based AICS compatible mags, it feeds signifcantly more reliably than it did when that short neck, improved shouldered case tried 'turn the corner' up&out of the box magazine...
[ April 28, 2016, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 28, 2016, 12:58 PM:
Excellent post, Fred. Appreciate it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 09, 2016, 03:32 AM:
Cal, how's the new 6CM been treatin' ya???
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2016, 05:15 PM:
You know what, Fred? I am mildly intrigued by those new cartridges from Nosler, like the 26 Nosler and the 30 Nosler. Good looking design. From what I've seen of Nosler brass, it's really well made, rivals Lapua, from what I can tell?
There is a write up in latest Guns and Ammo about Federal brass. They seem to think very highly of it, called Gold Match. Federal brass is a brand I have hardly ever used, although I somehow acquired some, here and there. I just don't like it for my handloads.
Good hunting.El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on June 11, 2016, 01:38 PM:
Fred, Once I got everything up and dialed I've been having a really good time with it. Right now I'm pushing 50 coyotes in a row with zero misses, runners, or errors. The 87 grain Berger literally stomps the life out of them.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2016, 06:58 AM:
You know, I have always thought that useful 6mm coyote bullet weights ranged between 75 and 87 grains. Possibly the most I personally have used would be the 85 Sierra, but lately, (meaning the last 10-15 years or so) I have trended towards the lower end of the scale. Currently, I'm quite happy with the 70 Nosler BT and the 74 Berger. (two different rifles) Can't remember, right now what I'm using in a third, for some reason? ....Oh yeah, it's 100 grain, because it's a dual purpose deer rifle.
Just about any pick will kill a coyote, and accuracy is generally at least good enough. I think I'm not very fussy anymore? Availability plays a part, as usual.
I still think Berger makes some decent bullets you can use for coyotes. Hornady has some good, tried and true offerings. I'm not loading Sierra very much, but not because I don't like them? I guess Berger has kind of moved into the slack? My volume is nothing like what it used to be. 100 loaded cartridges will last me a season and then some for just about any rifle I own.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 13, 2016, 10:30 AM:
Cool deal, Cal!
Got a 6x47L in the works, for 105 Hybrid detail. Wouldn't mind if those 87VLDS shot well, too!
Leonard, those new Nosler rounds are pretty wicked. Of the bunch, the .28Nosler holds the most appeal (for me). A 180 or the new 195VLD from that .28Nosler would be some serious business...
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