This is topic New 223ai Montana and new powders in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 18, 2015, 08:44 PM:
 
At least new to me, picked up a 223 Montana last year, sent it off to the gun plumber to set back and punch the original tube. (I know)

Came out pretty well and finally fire formed some Lapua cases. I've been playing with Leverevolution powder and have been getting over 100 fps better speeds than my old loads on vanilla 223 loads but noticed CFE223 is almost the same powder and it has a copper fouling eliminator (CFE) additive like TAC does. After using more than a few pounds of TAC and seeing very minimal copper fouling, I decided to try CFE223.

First off, I am using moly'd 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets and Federal 205 Match primers, a fairly soft primer. Temperature was 95 degrees and very humid.

I stopped at 3521 fps in the little 22" skinny barrel. I also will add that this was the second 5 shot group fired right after I reset the chronograph and we all know light barrels don't shoot.

The primers ain't showing any excessive pressure and I loaded the same cases up and shot em again today, no pressure signs and I'm about ready to call it good.

So what do you think?
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 18, 2015, 08:57 PM:
 
Im reminded of an old acquaintance, who when I'd show him little bug hole groups situated like yours is, he would shake his head and say, "whats so gawd damned good about that....you didn't even hit the bullseye".
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 18, 2015, 10:19 PM:
 
Yea, isn't that like when someone puts a penny or dime in the pic and someone says "I see you missed the coin 5 times"
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on July 19, 2015, 09:35 AM:
 
What twist is your barrel?

I'm shooting a 50 grain V Max out of my 12 twist barrel with H4895 and getting 3670 FPS. 22 7/8" barrel. I tried a bunch of different projectiles with varied results. I plan to try a Berger 50 grain MV next. Out of my 22-250 the Berger bullet messes up coyotes pretty bad. I'm thinking with a little less velocity they'll be perfect for the 223AI.

I converted an old Sako Vixen from 222 Mag to 223AI. The CCI primers are too hard for it and Gold Medals are too hard to find around here so I shoot Winchester primers with excellent results.

Yeah, same here with the dumb remarks. I used to put a piece of black marker tape on my target and use it to shoot for groups. A neighbor asked, "Do you really want it to shoot like that?"

Well, yeah. I do.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2015, 10:20 AM:
 
I have a bunch of comments, but ready to leave town so will spare the Peanut Gallery this time....(I know)

I had a brag group from my 25'06Ackley at 200 yards. I showed it to this asshole that I worked with. (yes, Mike Stewart, you are an asshole!) So, being completely ignorant of firearms, I found out with a single remark, he said, "They should all be in the same hole, what's so great about that?" It was inside 1/2", BTW.

Good hunting. El Bee (to the showers)
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 19, 2015, 11:39 AM:
 
Looks good Tom !!

Yeah, I hear you guys. Ya show off a nice group to someone who doesn't get it, and the same dumb response. You didn't hit the bulls eye.

Dipshits..

(edit) when you get a chance. Might as well show us a pic of the new rifle..

[ July 19, 2015, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 19, 2015, 12:18 PM:
 


The people you guys are showing targets to reminds me of a phrase I often use at work.

"They're doing the best they can......... I didn't say it was very good, I just said it was the best they can do."

As long as they're not anti-gun / anti-hunting be patient with them. They're doing the best they can.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 19, 2015, 01:10 PM:
 
Moe the Kimber Montana is a 1/9 twist and I'm hoping it'll stabilize the 75 Amax. This powder ought to be just about right, it's a little slow for the 55's but I'm not complaining.

Yes I missed the bullseye, that happens when you sight in for fire forming loads, I'll try better next time. On another forum we are shooting a 20 round challenge. Two 10 shot groups back to back on the same piece of paper, then averaging the two hoping for MOA. Beats the heck out of shooting 3 shots and calling it good.
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on July 19, 2015, 01:49 PM:
 
Obviously we chose the 223AI for entirely different reasons.

My complaint with the Vixen 222 Mag is that the magazine limits the cartridge length. That leaves too much freebore and it affects accuracy. The 222 Mag should be every bit as accurate as a 222 but mine wasn't. So I tried to find a cartridge with similar performance to the 222 Mag and came up with the 223AI. I had Krieger build and put on the new barrel. I'm actually getting better velocities over the 222 Mag and accuracy has improved. If I were to do it over again I would send the rifle to Darrell Holland and have him chamber the barrel and seat it. All in all, tho, I'm happy.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 19, 2015, 02:43 PM:
 
Moe, I have a Rem 700 with a 22" Douglas fluted #4 contour, 1-8 twist that shoots the 75's fantastic. It looks like a LVSF except I put it in a wood stock.

RL-15 is the powder it likes best, though I'm hearing good things about the Lever-evolution, I will have to try it now.

edited to clean up spelling and poor grammar.

[ July 19, 2015, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2015, 05:25 AM:
 
Hell, here I am, out in bumfuck, CA and I can't retrieve my records. All I know is that I never shot anything in my LVSF Model 700 (punched to Ackley Improved) except the 55 grain VMax. I just don't believe in 50 grain bullets in 223 capacity cases with the intent to bump the velocity and kill coyotes with speed. I never even tried it, don't believe in it. To each his own. What I can't remember is my "modest" improvement in velocity? Only about 50fps over published data for a stock 223 with 55 grain bullets.

I'd be more familiar with my results except that I haven't fired that gun in more than three years, maybe closer to four? But, since falling in love with this 22-243 Middlested, I chalk it up to lesson learned. I knew a 223 Ackley wouldn't perform to my expectations, just wishful thinking, I guess? I mean, it's a handy little rig, and intended for short range in moderately heavy cover, (read Arizona type stuff) but aside from that application, I never had any expectations. I took it to South Dakota hunting with Huber and thankfully, it didn't embarrass me.

Anyway, interesting concept but I'm lukewarm on coyotes.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on July 20, 2015, 06:20 AM:
 
Back in the 60's I found a Remington 722 in 222 and bought it as a backup rifle. My hunting partner started using it almost exclusively. Back in those days Sierra Bullets was in Santa Fe Springs about a block and a half away from where I worked so I stopped in and discussed what bullet to use in the 222. They suggested the 50 grain Spitzer Blitz bullet so I loaded some up and went hunting.

The 222 with that bullet is reliable out to about 175 yards and we killed a bunch of critters with it.

I'd been shooting the 52 grain Sierra Matchkings in my 22-250 for a lot of years with excellent results. I honestly can't remember a single runoff from that bullet and they were accurate as hell out of my old Forester.

I know some guys will only shoot 55 grain bullets and I chalk it up to personal preference or belief and I know it works for them. But I've been doing it this way for about 53 years and I'm kinda set in my ways.

I still experiment with new loads but always within the parameters of what I learned when I was still in my late teens.

I like my old Vixen because it's lightweight and accurate but I find myself taking my 22-250 Forester out to the field far more simply because of its awesome killing power.

Here's the last critter I called in and shot with the 223AI using the 50 grain V Max.



[ July 20, 2015, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Moe ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2015, 07:58 AM:
 
Cool !!

What were the specs on that cat ?? Length & weight & such ???
That paw looks huge.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 20, 2015, 08:03 AM:
 
Those Montana's are sexy. Always thought the .223AI looked neat too. Never actually owned either though.

Big believer in 10 or 20 shot test strings if that's the application. Never worried about them on a calling rig, but if it was going to see varmint duty, I'd always end up shooting 10 shot groups. Wasn't always happy with what they showed...

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2015, 10:14 AM:
 
I dunno, 10 and 20 shot groups are a real acid test, I suppose? But, as they say when doping wind in a benchrest match, even accuracy in a tunnel is subject to vortexes and mirage and so, what have we accomplished? A good measure of luck is involved.

Which is why benchrest groups are five shots, hard enough to do in some locales.

Any time I dinked around with 20 shot groups, as I recall, the result looked like a nice ragged one hole group surrounded by four or five "fliers".

I'm a believer in five shot groups, the gold standard of accuracy in my book.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 20, 2015, 10:30 AM:
 
Five shot groups aren't very useful though, for working with something like a p-dog rig. Where you frequently take 20 shots on sub and often very sub MOA targets in rapid succession.

For that application, I'm far more interested in shots 10 through 20 of the string, than the bragging group starting cold and clean.

As far as the subject in general goes, I'm always more interested in seeing the worst groups a rifle/load shows me, than the best ones.

And I don't believe in fliers. Outside real mechanical issues that need to be corrected.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on July 20, 2015, 12:29 PM:
 
Koko......100 lb tom. Came in within a couple of minutes in the second stand of the morning. Plain old jackrabbit distress. Even though we called up in the Junipers hoping for a cat it was a shock when he came in.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2015, 02:32 PM:
 
Yeah, there's something about a big cat coming in ...............
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 20, 2015, 03:38 PM:
 
Funny thing about speed. People ask how fast is that bullet leaving the barrel, etc.. How do you really know? I have a beta master chrony, but I don't know how accurate it is. I can't calibrate it.

I do often zero at 100 and shoot out to 600, sometimes then reverse calculate using ballistic drop charts. But then you have to trust the manufacturers BC numbers.

Which brings up Nosler has a 55gr 6mm Ballistic tip with the same BC as their 55gr 22 cal ballistic tip. How can that be?

[ July 20, 2015, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 20, 2015, 03:40 PM:
 

quote:

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Yeah, there's something about a big cat coming in ...............

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quote:

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And I don't believe in fliers. Outside real mechanical issues that need to be corrected.

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I don't want to belabor the point but the thing is, in benchrest, they don't shoot to the same point of aim in striving to produce a ragged one hole group. And, the reason is wind, for the most part, mirage also a consideration that is extremely difficult to compensate for.

So, are we talking a Universal Receiver in a machine rest? That still won't produce one hole groups. And, fliers don't exist? Depends on the definition of flier. Is it anything not within the same hole?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 21, 2015, 04:28 AM:
 
A flier is part of the group, shooting enough 10 shot groups will show you those "fliers" will have a pattern and show the guns true group size.

I know a guy that says his gun puts all shots in one ragged hole. I told him 3 shots don't count and he should try 10. He sent me about a 1 1/4" 10 shot group, which is about what everyone winds up shooting.

This is my best 10 shot group out of one of my machine guns, it's off a bi-pod with a small rear bag as the contest allowed but the "fliers" show up in all my groups which tell me they are not random.

Now I will say that I can show you some groups where I know I pulled some shots but I can't say that this gun and me will put em all into a ragged hole. (Yes I missed again cause I was trying every load I could think of to get a good group.)
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 21, 2015, 05:27 AM:
 
Exactly.

What most guys call fliers, are actually just showing the real precision of the system.

Shoot enough shots in the group and the fliers all disappear into the group. Because they aren't fliers. Because there's really no such thing.

And, doping the wind (and mirage) is a shooter skill, has nothing, nothing at all to do with the accuracy potential of the hardware.

Personally, I never work up loads for accuracy in tough conditions. I wait for good conditions and do my best to not let my accuracy testing reflect the weather more than the actual precision of the system.

Again, an awful lot of guys pay no attention to conditions when doing load work or zeroing, and accordingly haven't nearly as much a clue what's going on with their rig as they think they do.

And, those bench rest guys... There's a pretty wide spectrum of approaches. But a lot of the guys that win consistently, specialize in machine gunning. They watch conditions, wait for their chosen "steady" and get off all five shots in well under half a minute. With the goal of putting all five record shots down in the same condition.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of regular winners that don't work the sighter and hold off for conditions. That's the traditional method and still works, but it takes a lot of practice and a lot of worn out barrels to get good at it.

The unlimited, return to battery guys don't use universal receivers. That's a device generally used in pressure testing at the factories. And, they do often compete with ten shot groups. And, they do often machine gun like mad men, just ripping ten downrange as fast as possible with no change in POA between shots. No need to pay any attention to mirage when doing this. They keep their heads up watching the flags instead of looking through their scopes.

- DAA
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on July 21, 2015, 05:30 AM:
 
I might mention, when I'm shooting groups (which I do as little as possible, anymore...), I try to emulate the machine gunners. Because I'm just not that good at doping subtle changes. I watch conditions for awhile, hoping for a steady breeze and when my condition comes back I try to get all my shots off as fast as I reasonably can. I'm pretty slow, actually, but usually with a bolt gun I finish a five shot group in about 30 seconds.

- DAA
 

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