This is topic Buying a "can" is joke.. in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on May 28, 2014, 06:18 PM:
If you want to know how screwed up government can be, just try and buy a suppressor.
Its so ridiculous.
First, ATF has a "new" efile site that is suppose to solve the wait issues, but than too many folks log in (maybe 3 or 4?) and it breaks!
Finally, they take it down and say it will be fixed soon which is taking months..
After a month of waiting for efile , my vendor says just send in the paper work for the over 6 month wait.
Arghh..
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 28, 2014, 07:32 PM:
Hey, it's not like it's the same government that is going to run the nation's Health Care.
No........
Wait.........
Never mind.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2014, 03:47 AM:
Just pay your money and it'll be like CHRISTmas morning when you get the call.
Actually I've heard that depending on which state you're in, some agents are not as busy as those assigned to other states. Some are being told up to a year wait.
Anyway, what can did you get?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2014, 05:51 AM:
I'm not convinced that I need one?
Of course, I made one for my AR many years ago, (I am a master welder) but I could be joking about that? Kinda crude, and I had no objective way to measure it's effectiveness. But, for sure, I was way ahead of the curve, nobody was talking about suppressors at the time.
It could be a $200 fad, a status symbol. I'm not even sure where mine is, right now?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2014, 07:11 AM:
I know you're only joking Leonard, cause getting caught actually doing so could mean a $100,000 fine and a 10 year fad in prison.
I just have a 22 can and it's fun but actually needing a can for a 223 doesn't pop up on my gotta have things. For starters, the $200 tax stamp is the easy part, buying a can that is light enough to actually use runs over a grand and then you still have the ballistic crack with supersonic ammo. Subsonic, I'll run my 22lr.
Buying a bigger can and using say a 45 or 9mm or even a 308 chunking 220 gr bullets is quite impressive though.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on May 29, 2014, 07:33 AM:
Tom, seems your definitely up on suppressors. A can on a 22lr is quite impressive..
I'm getting a GEMTECH .
Leonard, just burning some $$
[ May 29, 2014, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on May 29, 2014, 08:25 AM:
I have a couple of bank customers that are in the process of going through the necessary paperwork to get suppressors.
I don’t know how it is in other states, but the attorney my guys are going through are recommending that a Revocable Trust be set up to ‘own’ the suppressors—the attorney calls them ‘Gun Trusts’. It is recommended that there be a couple of trustees in the trust.
The rationale is that if a trust is not set up, upon the death of the owner, at least in Kansas, the suppressor must be surrendered and legal ownership does not automatically pass to the spouse. The other issue is that in Kansas, the only person allowed to shoot a firearm with a suppressor is the one that was registered as the owner.
If the trust is the owner, and one of the trustees die, the suppressor can still be possessed legally, passed down, etc..
Here is an article explaining the basic premise:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/us/in-gun-trusts-a-legal-loophole-for-restricted-firearms.html?pagewanted%253Dall
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on May 29, 2014, 08:51 AM:
Right on Booger!
My vendor made it very easy. He provided me the trust, got my sons names on it and got it notorized. Done. No bugging the local sheriff , finger prints, etc..
Now the waiting game.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2014, 09:22 AM:
I guess I just don't see the value. If I were to have one, it would be on a rifle that best shoots supersonic. Just yesterday, I was talking to my gun plumber who was a sniper in the Army in 'Nam and we were talking about how they set up their match grade M-1's they used when on watch. he said they always loaded the mags with the first round being a tracer so the spotter could get the proper dope with the first shot. He said that the target cannot see the light in the daytime from a tracer round, but that everyone behind it can and that is what they would adjust on. What tripped me on this thread is that he said that anyone worth their shit being shot at, although they couldn't see the tracer round's light in daylight, could easily and accurately pinpoint the trajectory of the bullet and its point of origin solely on the supersonic crack of the bullet approaching and going by. He said the adjustments between that first round and the second were made quickly, knowing the crack had given them away most times. I can say that I have had one high-velocity round fired over my head before and can say that I easily knew the direction it came from because it sounded like a rocket going overhead. To me, the whole suppressor idea seems like just another marketing move within the industry. Lotta coyotes been taken without one and will continue to be. Not worth the hassle. I had a friend, dead now, that borrowed a suppressed rifle from another guy. He and his wife got into a fight. Cops showed up. Rifle was found. He turned state's evidence on the guy he borrowed it from and that guy spent 18 months in a federal prison in TX. That's been ten years ago and he still cannot own a gun or ammo or anything lime that. Rapists get less time than he did. Nope, not worth the hassle.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2014, 09:31 AM:
I'm new to supressors but have shot a few.
I have a friend who went the corporation route and advised me to do the same. The trust route was also mentioned elsewhere but my dealer didn't know anything about either one and I figured if I was gonna do it, I should just get it over with.
So I went the individual route, which can be transferred to my heirs for $5 if I was told correctly. In Okie land anyone can shoot mine but I have to be there. I have a very short list of people I'd share my supressor with so that really wasn't a concern. My sheriff signed off without any trouble and the process was painless, they already have my fingerprints anyway. I think I paid $25 to be fingerprinted again, much cheaper than setting up a trust I would think.
The thing that bothered me the most is the extra responsibility that goes with them. I was told that if a law was broken with a supressor, it becomes a felony. Not real sure how true that is but I'm not concerned anyway. But to loan a can out to someone on my trust, they would have to understand the penalties and the beating they would receive if they did anything to jeopardize my stamp.
I got a Gemtech too and like it just fine.
I've had two rifles for it and sold both of them. A bolt action is the quietest but real picky on ammo. (Too loud if they go supersonic and not all subsonic ammo is actually) the pistol is a hoot and almost everything is subsonic in it. If it only had a slide lock...
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on May 29, 2014, 11:01 AM:
Having had my suppressor for the past 3 years I have zero regrets, other than I wish I would've gotten it many years ago. At the very least, my ears like it much better than any rifle without it. At this point, I'm also convinced that I've killed a few more coyotes each season since getting it, just because of the lesser rifle report.
The process was easy as pie, from having fingers prints done, sheriff sign off, and then the wait. Back then the snail mail version was just about 5 months.
I'm not a criminal so I don't worry about what might happen if I break a law and get caught. And if and when I die, I don't see my wife really giving a care in the world if she can't keep the thing or not. No reason to loan it out, that I can think of.
It is just so much more pleasurable to shoot with it and when shooting a bunch in a day, on prairie dogs for instance, it really makes it much more enjoyable.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2014, 11:03 AM:
I SAID I WAS JOKING. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
edit: hey, I have a Browning Camper, very similar. I like it.
I still think, $200 versus ear plugs....
edit: besides, they'll never take me alive!
[ May 29, 2014, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2014, 11:45 AM:
I knew you were Leonard.
A lot of "preppers" are getting the 22 cans so they can kill a squirrel to eat and the zombies won't hear em I guess. But I have seen times when I didn't want anyone to hear me shoot...
It might come in handy one day.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on May 29, 2014, 11:47 AM:
But do you wear ear plugs while calling? You should, ya know. Every shot equals more damage, not as much so with a suppressor.
I still wear hearing protection while shooting colony rats simply for the fact of 100's of rounds fired in a day, will wear on you, even with a suppressor.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2014, 01:34 PM:
I think mine is too small to be really effective with supersonic ammunition. Just a wild hair, something to do, at the time. It works, but not enough, and I think it affected the harmonics too much?
Of course, I'm just kidding. I'd never do something like that. Gosh, it's illegal, and everybody knows how legit I am.
But, on a Browning Camper, that's actually kinda cool.
Actually, that's what gave me the idea, I was over at a friend for the Superbowl and a pool tournament, (which I won) but he hauled out his 22, I think it was a Colt Woodsman? Impressively quiet. Wasn't much louder than a pellet rifle.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2014, 03:36 PM:
From the prepper standpoint, I have a .25 cal Benjamin Marauder air rifle. Purty easy to find ammo. Can get about 30 shots out of one series of pumping it up to operating pressure, and I've taken rats and other vermin out to 50 yards+ with it. Best of all, the "spring" of the spring in the trigger assembly is the loudest part of the report. If you're more than 20 feet from me, you'd never hear it. They say these things will kill a deer with a head shot out to 30 yards. I don't know about that......
Posted by MI VHNTR (Member # 3370) on May 29, 2014, 05:21 PM:
The "gun friendly" state of Michigan finally allowed the residents to own a suppressor. The thing is, it's not legal to hunt with one in the state. Not much sense in owning one here until the idiots in Lansing get their heads out of their butts.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on May 29, 2014, 06:40 PM:
Kansas only started allowing it a couple of years ago.
I've always wanted one, and even said I would if they were ever made legal to hunt with,...but you know how that goes.
I've actually been giving the .22 pistol set up more thought than anything. I really like your set up Tom.
What are your thoughts on the Ruger Mk II or III Vs the Browning Buckmark?
Are the .22 suppresors more affordable?
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 29, 2014, 06:42 PM:
Everybody has an opinion. Mine is, that for coyotes, a suppressor is worth it's weight in gold. Aybody that says otherwise hasn't used one. I would hate to go back to not using one.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on May 29, 2014, 07:50 PM:
My can is going to look like this one on the AR..
It's tough to wait til Christmas ..
[ May 29, 2014, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on May 29, 2014, 07:52 PM:
By the way, what bullet types do u guys use? It seems shooting Vmax type bullets can void warranty..
I plan to use hollow points.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2014, 09:13 PM:
"I've actually been giving the .22 pistol set up more thought than anything. I really like your set up Tom.
What are your thoughts on the Ruger Mk II or III Vs the Browning Buckmark?
Are the .22 suppresors more affordable?"
I've had two Rugers that were tack drivers but traded off both. Acquired four or five more trying to replace them with no luck. They were ok shooters (MK II's) but not impressive like the other two.
I finally found a Buckmark that I liked, the URX grip/frame and it's an ok shooter but I bought the TacSol barrel which is aluminum with a SS sleeve for the actual barrel.
The 22 cans are half priced compared to a center fire can.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2014, 09:17 AM:
quote:
Everybody has an opinion. Mine is, that for coyotes, a suppressor is worth it's weight in gold. Aybody that says otherwise hasn't used one. I would hate to go back to not using one.
Calvin Taylor
That's quite a testimonial. But, I still think I don't need one, no matter if it's worth it's weight in gold. Now, I can see it for what you, (Cal) do, but for my application, I'm not convinced. And, it's only worth it's weight in gold on multiples. Multiples, in places like northern Nevada is kinda wishful thinking, they are so spread out.
GOOD HUNTING. LB
edit: that Buckmark is a hot setup. Is that a Burris gadget on top?
[ May 30, 2014, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 30, 2014, 09:22 AM:
I kinda fell asleep while posting last night and forgot the most important part about 22 cans, they are also half the size and weight. My can is 1" OD, 5" long and weighs 2.7 oz.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on June 02, 2014, 04:36 AM:
Multiples is correct LB, both those that come together and those that come strung out. In our summertime work it is a bonus when you have two or three coyotes working the dogs and you can shoot the first without upsetting the others as much. In the winter I see a huge benefit when you have one show at say the two minute mark then another a few minutes later. Those coyotes that are coming in from further out don't seem nearly as concerned when they show. Even when your watching them out a half mile or so they just keep coming. The lesser sound really helps out. And it really does seem to confuse them as to where the sound comes from. I have shot the first of a pair several times and had the second coyote actually move towards me not knowing where the sound comes from.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2014, 07:27 AM:
I concede all, Cal.
I have not hunted Wyoming very much but what I have seen, primarily southwestern, it is a lot like Nevada, wide open. Meaning that things that happen a quarter mile, (or more) away seems to have "intimacy" that just doesn't happen in Arizona or Mexico.
People don't understand that some of these places are way more brushy and there is a tunnel vision when you don't see a coyote approaching from much more than a hundred yards, if you are lucky.
I am not exaggerating. Coyotes romp out of the washes and look around with no spookiness, after several shots have been fired. They look like they have not a care in the world. The confining brush muffles the shot much in the same way as does a suppressor.
Think of it like a shotgun stand, all shots will begin inside of 100 yards and they keep popping out of the cover like they are deaf, didn't hear any shooting, at all.
I don't know? Maybe I'm exaggerating? I can see SOME advantage, especially the part where the sound doesn't seem to help in identifying the direction it's coming from. But, you know, hunting at night is the same phenomena, exactly the opposite effect as you might think. It's like throwing a cloud blanket over the stand and not allowing the shot to echo and bounce down the rocks like on a bright sunny day. Kinda hard to explain.
Bottom line, yes I can see the suppressor has some worth, in some applications. If it's worth it's weight in gold for some of you guys, that's great, especially when they are all right in front of you. But for many of my stands, they pop out of the brush one at a time and that's a different situation, one that in all honesty, has not given me that much trouble.
Then again, my experience is limited to one afternoon at the range, with a suppressed, full auto M4. Therefore, I can't say that I really know what I'm talking about?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on June 03, 2014, 06:01 AM:
In my experience a suppressor has helped me. The first year I used one I shot more doubles than ever before. Several were in situations were I could see two coyotes at the same time. I run a dog on stand and I'm sure that distraction helps as well.
This weekend I shot two doubles and in both cases they were together. The second coyote ran off a few yards and looked at their partner.
Another benefit for the guys using a dog is that it saves our dogs ears as well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 03, 2014, 09:18 AM:
That's a good point, had not thought about protecting your dogs ears. Of course, not everybody runs decoy dogs?
Way over on the south eastern AZ, it's a little more open and I didn't mean to imply that we never see two animals at the same time. However, it's just as typical to see them bursting out of brush one at a time, and typically acting like they didn't hear a gunshot.
Of course they did. edit: (hear it) They just seem to not let it affect them, or something? I will never know how many turned tail and split before I saw them after the lead animal went down? Can't prove that kind of negative.
I'm just not ready to jump on the bandwagon; GOTTA HAVE IT!
Good hunting El Bee
[ June 03, 2014, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on June 09, 2014, 05:33 AM:
I always said to myself and to a few close friends that if I ever won the powerball that I was going to file a law suit against the AZ Game and Fish Depoartment under the ADA act. My hearing loss is well documented and I always wanted to use a silencer while hunting. One friend asked why don't you just wear electronic hearing protection. That way you can hear and protect. Yeh sure, in Arizona when it gets to 90 degrees by 10:00am I am going to wear hearing protection. Well it isn't necessary now that it is legal to use a can. Haven't bought one yet but probably will some day.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 09, 2014, 08:58 AM:
I picked up a Daniel Defense 10.5" 300 Blackout the other day, never cared much for all the hype trying to run it supersonic but subsonic it makes sense.
Slap a can on that thing and some night vision then start picking off hogs. Would be expensive but fun!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2014, 11:38 AM:
I'm a little concerned, Tom. I hope you are saving a little for retirement?
(signed) Jealous El Bee
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 09, 2014, 04:10 PM:
Quick question on cans in general...
Do you have to carry any special documents on you when hunting, or...really anytime to prove that you're "legal"?
I could potentially see an over zealous cop or warden go into full on freak out mode at some point.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on June 09, 2014, 04:42 PM:
Yes. In possesion you need paper work. Just can't walk around with a can in your hand. ;-)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 09, 2014, 08:24 PM:
Just dreaming Leonard, I wish I had the extra coin to splurge but sadly I do not.
Hey maybe we could do a fund raiser like they do on pm and we all could buy one?
Edit to clarify, when I said "picked up" I meant I just picked it up as the dealer was testing me. I promptly handed it back to him when I started counting coins.
[ June 10, 2014, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on June 10, 2014, 05:40 AM:
What we need is for the DEms and Obama to pass the Affordable CAN Act. Otherwise known as the ACA.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 10, 2014, 07:49 AM:
What we REALLY need is for the Dem. Forces of Evil to be as enthusiastic about `.....shall not be infringed` as they were about `.....depends on what the definition of 'is' is.`
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 10, 2014, 07:53 AM:
HEY;
Just noticed;
The Democratic Forces Of Evil.
a.k.a.
The Democratic F.O.E.
I crack myself up sometimes.
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 17, 2014, 03:43 PM:
TR, I'm going to suppress my .17-.204 and was wondering what can you went with?
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on October 18, 2014, 05:44 AM:
I've got the S.A.S./Suppressed Armament Systems 5.56/.223 Sentinel Ti model.
Lots of good suppressors to pick from. I'd suggest finding the closest dealer to you and going with what ever make and model he/she carries, and try to avoid having to transfer something different into his/her shop. That transfer alone adds to the headache of buying a can.
I went with the 5.56/.223 because 1)the .223 model is significantly shorter, smaller, and lighter than the .30 cal models. 2)I rarely shoot any of my larger than .22 cal guns, hence I wasn't worried about using it on every gun that I have. Size, weight, length were more important to me.
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 22, 2014, 04:30 PM:
TR, did anyone say anything to you about handling the greater pressure of the gun you are using it on compared to the .223? Only reason I ask is I called a suppressor shop and he said he is not sure a .223 can would handle the increased pressure of the .17-.204. How long have you had it? No problems? Ever have to clean it? Do you get any POI shift?
[ October 22, 2014, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on October 23, 2014, 05:11 AM:
I don't see how a .22 cal. suppressor with a .17 cal. bullet going through it will cause more pressure in the suppressor. Seems to me that a smaller bullet would allow more gases to escape, but that's just my thinking out loud. I'd think a .220 swift would create more pressure at the can than does the .17/204, for instance.
BUT, to answer your question, my dealer, who also has threaded all but one rifle for me, has never said anything to me about varying pressures from varying rifles being a problem. Basically was told that I could shoot any caliber through it that is .22 cal or smaller.
As far as cleaning, it was recommended to clean it about once a year because it can begin to build up carbon over time. Simply fill it with vinegar and let soak for a couple of days and rinse with warm water and allow to dry.
I'm in my 4th season with mine. Between shooting prairie dogs in the summer, and coyotes in the winter, I've probably got a couple thousand rds. through it now.
When you first mount the can on any rifle, you will have a small POI shift do to the change of barrel harmonics. Simply re-sight the rifle with the can on it, and you're good to go. I have many times taken the can off of one gun and screwed in onto another, and the POI stayed the same from one switch to the next. Don't have to re-sight each time you take it off and put it back on.
[ October 23, 2014, 05:16 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 23, 2014, 05:44 AM:
Thanks TR.
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on October 23, 2014, 06:43 PM:
Sorry TR, one last question. What style mounting system did you use? The direct thread on or something different? Do you ever have to retighten it? I would like one that I can put on and never worry about it loosening and still retain accuracy.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on October 27, 2014, 08:19 AM:
direct thread, and I've never had it come loose.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on November 13, 2014, 07:36 PM:
I got the call! I got my tax stamp, that's just shy of 6 months..
I pick up my can tomorrow..:-)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 15, 2014, 12:38 PM:
Probably double your kill.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on November 15, 2014, 05:41 PM:
Oh, least double. Lol
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on November 15, 2014, 08:54 PM:
Does anyone know, do you have to physically pick up the suppressor from the store or can they ship it to you? Reason I ask is because I have been trying to get a suppressor for a couple months and the 1st shop either won't call me back or will call back several days later. So I tried another shop and they won't call back. Can I order over the phone from someone?
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on November 16, 2014, 06:35 AM:
Well, here's a clue.
When went to the local store. I had to fill out a form like I was buying a freakin firearm (same questions) and they called me in for approval..
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on November 16, 2014, 06:37 AM:
Oh, I just bought SUBSONIC for .223. I heard from folks that it sounds like a bb gun with three pumps. Ha ha
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 16, 2014, 07:32 AM:
I think I don't need a 223 machine gun with a silencer, or Viagra.
I'm pretty sure there is a relationship. lol
Then, there is the status....
I can envision a market for "fake" suppressors. Who want's to be ridiculed just because they made the choice of baby formula over a five hundred dollar status symbol?
Hey, have fun. That's what it's all about. If you "think" it helps; it helps.
However, there is a small corner of my mostly empty head that is cognizant of a vague thought. I remember the time I managed to kill six coyotes and was aware of the confusion I witnessed from the top of a pile of gravel overlooking a mud puddle. There was nine coyotes engaged in a Chinese Firedrill. None of them knew whether to shit or go blind. They didn't know which way to run, because the sound was "suppressed".
Caveat:
180 degrees. Wow, what a concept! Then, there is the six months of brutal anticipation!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on November 16, 2014, 10:19 AM:
Well, I'm lot younger than u grey beards, so I don't need any Viagra yet. Ha!
There was a day , I was just like u when I thought cans did not have merit for hunting. After forgetting to put my ears on, a shot from my AR hit my ear so hard I thought the ear drum was going to fall out my ear!
Just got back from the range. I shot several rounds without hearing protection. In a hunting scenario, that's priceless!
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on November 16, 2014, 12:07 PM:
My beard is about a 1/3rd gray. Wonder if, I'll need Viagra soon ?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 16, 2014, 01:40 PM:
Well, only your hairdresser knows for sure.
But, one third gray, why take a chance?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on November 16, 2014, 01:53 PM:
Lol, yeah why take a chance..
I wonder if, my insurance covers it. Screw it, life's short what the hell !!
"hairdresser" LOL..I think you would be proud Leonard. I go every three weeks for a buzz-cut & beard trim, to an old school, Basque barber from the high desert. You don't have options, he busts' out a #1 trimmer and nails whatever hair you got on 'yer head and face.
It's great..
[ November 16, 2014, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
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