|
Author
|
Topic: redding bushing die questions?
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 15, 2021 02:51 PM
I'm thinking about using redding bushing dies. In order to get proper bullet seating friction, I going to use a quality brand of brass that manufactures the brass to very consistent tolerances, especially the neck thickness. I do not to get into neck turning. Is neck turning required? What brand of brass keeps very close tolerances. I thinking Lapua, Nosler, Norma, or ???
Thanks
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 16, 2021 10:40 AM
The Redding dies are very good and the bushings are interchangeable
with Wilson, (which I prefer) but not by much. You can even turn the bushings over for a slightly snugger fit.
As to the brand, most people will tell you that Lapua is "better" but only if your cartridge is compatible with the limited sizes that Lapua makes. Same can be said about Nosler, which, (I think) in some sizes are every bit equal int quality to Lapua. And Norma is also good consistency wise but I just don't particularly care for their brass formulation, seems like it has a bit too much copper in it to suit me. But that's a strictly personal preference, and opinion.
I'm not real sure what you mean by neck turning, or do you mean neck trimming? Neck turning is something I do, but you should have a very clear idea of what you are trying to accomplish and it's easy to over do it. Most people might go with a 75% neck turning and call it good, for starters. We should take baby steps, if I can suggest a little caution.
In my opinion.... Also, what exactly is your motivation? Most people that get into bushing die handloading are looking for accuracy. And, you have to enjoy working with the stuff. It's 180 degrees from Dillon progressive reloading and some are into benchrest competition, but there is a fair amount of dedicated varmint and predator hunters that benifit from the precision aspects of bushing dies. In some cases, it's worth the bother, but it's better if you enjoy working with hand tools. It's not quick and dirty, but there can be some rewards.
And, good luck! If there is anything else that you need to know, I'll do my best to give you the benefit of my experience, for what it's worth.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 16, 2021 04:05 PM
I do mean neck turning which means to me making the walls of the neck thinner but more consistent. Also, I have several guns in the same calibers. I also do some loading for my hunting partner in these calibers.
Right now I'm resizing all of my 308 back to sammi specs so every 308 case will work in multiple guns. This causes excessive case stretching and requires additional trimming. I'm thinking about buying 100 premium cases for each rifle and a plastic case to hold them in. After shooting three rounds per rifle, I will measure with an RCBS precision mic, which I already have, from the base to a datum point on the shoulder to get an idea of chamber length. I will then set the Redding full length bushing die to resize .001 to .002 shorter than chamber dimensions. Hopefully, some of the rifles will be close to the same length so I can use the same die. If need be, I will buy a resize die for each rifle and set the dimension for that one rifle and leave it alone. This begs the question if I should go with bushing dies or standard dies with neck expanders to save money?
My goals are to get longer case life, perform less trimming, and getting more than say 5 reloads before having to inspect for incipient case separation. Better accuracy would also be very nice. BTW, The inspection process is a PIA.
Thanks for responding Leonard.
Link to the rcbs precision mic
https://www.rcbs.com/case-processing/measuring/precision-mic/564.html
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 17, 2021 09:02 AM
If I understand your application, and that's not a given, I don't think you would benefit by using bushing dies. Reloading or handloading for several different rifles all of the same caliber doesn't require the precision of bushing dies which are generally dedicated to a single rifle.
It's no neat trick at all to get ten "reloads" from a certain amount of cases using standard dies. The easiest way is to stay under "max" loads. 308 Winchester is not a high performance cartridge. I don't think fine tuning the reloading process by neck turning and using labor intensive bushing dies for a number of similar rifles is necessary.
I assume that you are talking about a bunch of general purpose rifles, all chambered the same caliber? This does not require bushing dies which have a very specific application, and the application is accuracy. Usually this is a target shooting application, but sometimes it is high performance like colony varmints at long range where you aren't measuring group size.
But you won't make a bunch of different rifles the same by turning necks and using bushing dies. You do understand that hand dies is a very slow process and designed for a specific firearm.
The whole concept of developing a certain load for a specific firearm, and selecting a specific propellant and the exact charge is customizing the cases and the bullet and seating depth for optimum performance will never be the same for X number of different rifles, the only common denominator being the caliber. Even the bullet itself is a variable, a 165gr. Sierra might be fine for 3 rifles and 3 others might have better accuracy with a 180gr. Berger. But, this is why factory ammo will work in every rifle, and is exactly why custom designing your specific load for your specific rifle is rewarded with performance measured in accuracy, ie: group size. What you are trying to do is develop your own "factory" ammo to be used universally in all your guns, but again, this does not require such extreme measures as neck turning and using bushing dies. So, I think standard full length dies will suit you just fine, maybe the ones with micrometer bullet seating would be better for your application?
Seems to me that you could dedicate a certain amount of cases to a certain rifle and fireform them in that particular chamber. The problem is in keeping dedicated cases separated and the easiest way is by head stamp. I am able to mark cases with a scratch and it lasts indefinitely.
An example would be like:
"308/Win" and another group would be marked "308 Win/" and a third might be, "/308 Win". The "/" being a scratch on the head stamp with a carbide scribe in a specific location. I promise, it will last practically forever, you can mix them when tumbling and they are easily identified and separated afterwards.
So, unless I have grossly misunderstood what you want to do, just keep your brass separated and identified by head stamp and that's all the customizing you need for a bunch of different guns. This is not to say that you cannot do it with bushing dies, but it seems "overkill" for lack of a better word.
Again, if I am misunderstanding your motivation, I apologize.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 17, 2021 04:30 PM
I just reread your motivation because I'm still a little baffled by a couple comments. For instance, Incipient case head separation. This is a rare incident and I have been handloading for more than 53 years and have yet to run into a case head separation, incipient of otherwise caused at the factory by excessive headspace. I guess if you set the shoulder way too far back, subsequent firing could cause case head separation. Trust me, this is a rare condition and I don't know why you mention it? But it sort of begs the question that perhaps you intend to full length resize the shoulders. If that is your intention, you do not do it with bushing dies! Bushing dies only work necks and do not touch the shoulder at all. And they only work on once fired brass, at least that's the application in damned near 100% of the time.
Is there anybody else that grasps what is the intention here and maybe it's me that is just not getting it?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ December 17, 2021, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 18, 2021 07:00 AM
First off thanks for telling me about the issues with bushing dies. I’ve decided to not go that route.
With the types of rifles you use, especially those with Ackley chambers, I was surprised you’ve heard of incipient case separation.
I was introduced to it a long time ago at a DCM/M1garand clinic. Semi autos work the brass harder than bolt guns; and a couple of the 308s I reload are semis. The instructor told us to watch out for it after four or five firings, and told us to feel for it with a modified paper clip. The instructor continues to use cases that are showing signs of separation during competitions. He uses them during the slow course of fire and keeps a stuck case extraction tool handy. I once picked up some federal range brass that showed signs of separation after just 3 full length resizings being shot in a bolt gun because I set the full length size die as per the instructions that the dies came with. I couldn't check for the amount of brass stretch back then.
My goal is to increase case life, reduce time spent inspecting brass, and reduce case trimming. To accomplish this I am going to assign a batch of brass to a specific rifle. By the way, thanks for tip on marking the head stamp with a carbide scribe. I will check the case size after firing in its assigned rifle and adjust the die accordingly. I’ve done a lot of reloading and have seen that every barrel is different and likes different bullets at specific velocities. It is a never ending process searching for the best load. I regularly check for throat erosion and reset seating depth, magazine length permitting.
Thanks for the help
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 18, 2021 09:29 AM
Well anyway, one thing that slipped by me is that you are talking about semi autos and maybe M1's and that type. Trust me, nobody uses bushing dies on semi autos. I didn't know that there was that kind of problem with military weapons, but then again, the percentage of users that handload M1A1's and such are very low and those guys are shooting silhouettes and KD ranges and from what I've heard from a Marine friend, is that range brass is available by the bucketload, but it's 5.56 and 7.62 and seldom, if ever 30'06.
Yeah, I know about the paper clip detection solution, I've read about it in several publications over the years. But still, if that's going on, what you have is a defective firearm, and the military perhaps doesn't care about battlefield situations, that brass isn't going to be reutilized anyway and it got the job done by firing that projectile over yonder in the general direction of the enemy.
Just remember this, if nothing else. The vast vast number of bushing dies sold in this country are used by dedicated hard ass bench resters in rifles chambered for like 22PPC but you know, they neck size with Wilson dies and I would think 20 reloads are very common so brass life is extremely good due to the brass being worked so little.
Anyway, these are the folks that use bushing dies except for a few of us varmint hunter cranks. Nobody handloading for semi auto military rifles has a use for bushing dies. Glad we got that straightened out!
I will say that if you or your buddies are dealing with incipient case head, or actual separations, they should trade them off or rebarrel. That's what I would do.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 20, 2021 08:36 AM
I’m still studying where I want to go with reloading. The RCBS precision mic, which I gave you in an above link, has size die adjusting instructions with the mic. They basically tell you to fire three cases, measure each case and average the three. Then adjust your dies to give yourself a little extra room for easy feeding. If I have excessive head space it should show up here.
I will set up the resize die for the tightest chamber to have a .001 to .0015 of clearance. I will then load a number of dummy rounds to ensure proper feeding. I have a theory that semi autos may stretch the case more than the chamber size because the brass is hot when the bolt opens with enough pressure left in the barrel to properly cycle the action. If this is true, I may see it when I try feeding the dummy rounds.
I was thinking of buying a size die for each rifle, but availability is real bad even with higher than normal prices. I went to a supplier that sells an incredible number of specialty items used by industry and manufacturers named McMaster-Carr. They have high quality machined shim washers that I will use to adjust the size die for longer chambers. They start at .001 to .008 in .001 increments, and are 7/8” ID and 1 3/8” OD.
https://www.mcmaster.com/precision-washers/ring-shim-sets/
Again Thank you for your support
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 20, 2021 08:45 AM
BTW: The headspace difference between an M1A and a 308 Winchester is very significant. I'm fairly sure some of my 308s are at military specs.
Here is a cut and past from the link below:
The .308 Winchester has a chamber headspace of between 1.630 and 1.6340 inches while the 7.62 NATO has a headspace between 1.6355 and 1.6405 inches.
As you can see, I'm probably over working my brass.
https://www.greybeardoutdoors.com/blog/is-308-winchester-same-as-7-62-x-51-nato/
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 20, 2021 09:54 AM
McMaster-Carr! The amount of obscure stuff in that yellow catalog is really amazing. I don't get them anymore, and guess they are mostly online, these days? Their facility is in Norwalk, probably 25-30 miles south of me and I've been there many times just to pick up. There's nothing to see, huge building with just a will call dock. But, if McMaster Carr don't have it in stock, maybe it don't exist?
I can't imagine needing a dedicated sizing die for every rifle, I'd forget that. Yes, you need to move lock rings up and down, but you can practically do that by Braille.
To tell the truth, I have hardly no experience handloading military semi autos, but it doesn't seem likely that case stretching would be a problem that full length resizing could not handle. But if you think that you might need to excessively work the brass for easy chambering, I just don't know.
I only reload for my AR and I feed it junk, range brass and bullets that my precision rifles don't like. But I've never had a problem of any sort with recycled brass. I happen to own a 308, but it's in a Model 700 Remington. And, it's not really my cup of tea, I just bought it because it was a deal. If I need to hunt big game, my 300WM is the "go to" rifle, the 308 just gathers dust.
But anyway, you have a bunch of potential issues with so many rifles. But, just between you and me, your buddies might not appreciate your efforts in their behalf. I hope they do!
Good luck!
El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 21, 2021 03:09 PM
I meant to mention something else that I think might solve your concerns.
Annealing brass solves many problems and all the downside is the initial investment. There is a fella that will anneal your brass and send it back, I don't have his information at hand right now but he hangs out at Snipers Hide. com. If I recall, it's about 10 cents a round?
anyway, here's one system:
https://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
|
posted December 22, 2021 05:35 AM
Thanks for the link. It has been a long time since I've logged into 6mmbr's site. I'm sure it would be worth the money to try annealing. I tried it once, and it was difficult to get the temperature correct.
McMaster-Carr (MC) has everthing the hardware stores and Grainger don't. I would bet that NASA has used stuff from MC on the space shuttle and the International Space Station. When I left the school district eight years ago, I took that yellow book home with me, but I found the shims online.
--------------------
Never thought the devil would need a teleprompter but I could be wrong.
United State of America: RIP
Born July 4th 1776 died November 6th 2012
Posts: 1924 | From: Phoenix Az | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted December 22, 2021 08:31 AM
I bet you're right, NASA probably does buy stuff from McMaster-Carr! Between them and Grainger's, if they ain't got it, you don't need it.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
