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Author
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Topic: Good Advice?
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted June 07, 2011 09:17 PM
Ok sorry for the delay, besides dinner with the wife, I got two LONG phone calls from some coppers that needed some advise on something.
Anyways the guy and his wife decide they should leave to avoid trouble. They get up say nothing to the drunk guys and walk out of the restuarant.
The turds follow, as soon as the guy walks out into the parking lot, they attack him from behind,and start beating him. The guy goes down, they put the boots to him.
Wife jumps in and gets punched. The turds continue to work the husband over. The wife pulls out a buck knife and stabbs the hell out of both of the turds. STICKS them good and both go down.
I am the second unit on scene, we got 3 people down in the parking lot and witnesses every where.
ALL 3 that are down are in bad shape. Fire department call for 2 medivac helicopters for airlift to local trauma center.
We got a ton of witnesses who all pretty much say the samething, unprovoked attack. Looks like a good self defense case, SO we thought.
The wife is being treated for her injuries I interview her and her story matches what the witnesses say. NO one knows each other in this incident.
The detective arrives and is doing what detectives do. NEXT thing I know this woman is in handcuffs and the detective is asking one of us to transport her to the station. I say to myself WTF!!
The poor woman is hysterical, and now the woman's mom and dad and family members show up see her in handcuffs and go ballistic. We get everyone calmed down. I unhandcuff the woman and put her in the back of my car. She starts throwing up she is so scared and nervous.
I go over to my Sergeant and say WTF boss why is she getting arrested. Sergeant who in real life has no balls says the detective has decided to arrest the female to cover our ass. I said Sarge this is a clear case of self defense these two turds would have beat that guy to death if the wife had not stabbed them. Sarge says I know I know it's not my decision.
I went over to the family members and flat told them their daughter had done nothing wrong and I was confident the DA would not file charges. I gave them my business card and told them to have their attorney call me, I would testifie in their behalf. But for now I must follow orders and book their daughter. They were happy and calm by then. I felt SO sorry for the woman and I still feel to this day it sent a VERY BAD message to those witnesses about SELF DEFENSE.
Within 48 hours, the DA had dropped all charges against the woman,(attempted murder), ruled CLEAR SELF DEFENSE, YA THINK!!!! The two turds get filed on for aggrivated assualt with great bodily injury. The husband lost a kidney in the assault.
The woman will NO DOUBT forever be confused and hesitant to make a quick decision on when to fight or run because of that night.
It worked out in the end for her, but she didn't need to go through all that shit either.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Ken
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posted June 07, 2011 09:40 PM
The incidents of self defense around here have actually been far and few between, but they do happen.
I handled one case where a jewelry store owner shot and killed one of 5 suspects who robbed him.
Two other cases where citizens caught car burglars in their cars, the car burglar got stupid and got clobbered several times with baseball bats.
A group of citizens captured a car thief who got stupid and got lumped up REAL good for his efforts.
EACH and EVERY incident the parties involved along with their friends thought FIRST thing, they were going to jail for what they had done. NOT EVEN close to that ever happening. NO ARRESTS on any citizen.
YEP each and everyone because of what they had heard from EVERYONE else about these horror stories THEY were in deep shit with the cops.
I actually spent more time calming everyone down and trying to convince them ALL is well than I did doing the freakin paperwork afterwards.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Ken
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posted June 07, 2011 09:46 PM
In one case in the City of LA, a jewelry store owner in downtown, KILLED 6 robbery suspects, only 3 were actually armed the others were simulated in a period of 4 years.
He was never arrested, no charges filed against him for ANYTHING. The cops finally suggested he move his business somewhere else because he had become a target of the local turds.
I have read my share of stories in the local paper where such incidents have happened where more than a few burglars were shot, the burglars were unarmed. NO ARRESTs or charges filed by the District Attorney.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted June 07, 2011 10:01 PM
I think shopkeepers have a lot smoother sailing than a citizen in a restaurant or a house burglar.
I have had cops tell me I can't defend myself with a firearm without getting in BIG trouble.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Ken
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posted June 07, 2011 10:14 PM
That is just BS LB for what they said. House, business, walking the dog,standing in your front yard. YOU have a right to defend yourself when attacked, just like the cops do.
One of the worst problems we have and I think it has been discussed is mis-information being put out by cops themselves.
But what is one to do? YOU hesitate in the scenario's I've dealt with you will die.
Oh let me tell you LB, some cops go through this same question in their heads, THEY too are not sure themselve despite the training. THEY have died in the line of duty picking their nose.
It can be difficult to program the mind to react when you need to. In most cases you must react and be decisive in seconds in order to survive.
Just look at the bullet button laws on the AR's, some folks still being arrested because the word has not reached ALL the cops. It's costing some cities big money for false arrest claims.
[ June 07, 2011, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Ken
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posted June 07, 2011 10:36 PM
LB, just call me the answerman. This is from the California Penal code. YOU should note the term "any person", that means me you and the po-po. I'll show you another section later.
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 07, 2011 11:07 PM
Okay, as soon as the concrete dries, I will bust it up and dig up my means of self defense.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ken
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Member # 3065
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posted June 07, 2011 11:28 PM
Ok LB, I saved this for last just to show you those cops you talked to were full of crap.
I'd hate to be accussed of being anti-cop and not having something to back myself up with.
HOW is this one for your BURGLAR ISSUES. YOU don't see in there where the TURD has to be armed do you?
198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.
LB, this is when you would USE your command voice telling the TURD to halt, then he suddenly reached for his waistband. PRETTY cool huh.
DON'T call the cops until the TURD is dead unless you know he can't hurt you, then call them, go stand outside in the middle of the driveway and when they pull up show them your hands and TAKE no guns with you.
Feel free to drag his ass back outside so he don't bleed all over that white carpet either. NAW just joking better to leave him lay where he falls.
You'll have those pretty CSI girls wanting to take photos and everything.
When you call 911 stay on the line with the dispatcher so she can tell the cops what your wearing etc,etc.
[ June 07, 2011, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Ken
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Member # 3065
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posted June 08, 2011 07:37 AM
Now onto Jim's post on what you should tell the cops after you shoot a bad guy.
If I am called to an incident where you shot someone, they have been killed or injured as a result of the confrontation, I ask you what happened, you invoke your 5th amendament rights, I only have a couple of options.
It will be obvious your upset and scared. If the physical evidence points to a self defense issue, I will explain that to you. If you still wish to remain silent, want to talk to a lawyer, then I will ask you if you have one, call him now if you'd like.
If your lawyer shows up, I will be glad to let him talked to you in private. If you have been advised to say nothing, then depending on the amount of evidence available that would allow us to determine what probably happened, I will send you home, pending further investigation.
YOU may have to wait several days, or weeks before YOU are cleared or charges filed on you. JUST like cops have too. FREAKIN stressful to be honest.
NO MATTER what happens, a complete investigation MUST be done and forwarded to the District Attorney for final determination of ALL the circumstances. This applies to EVERYONE, cops and citizens.
Remember what I said in my very FIRST posting, killing someone is SERIOUS stuff. Remember the bad guy has family too, so their going to be screaming for your head, just like what happens with the cops.
HERE is where problems come into play in some cases. We find out you know the person you just killed, no physical evidence to support a self defense claim, and YOU ain't talkin.
I hope you don't think your going home without an explanation do you? If your lawyer shows up, then we are ALL going to the station to find out what happened. YOU will be riding with me though.
IF you still refuse to talk, then your going to be arrested most likely, hopefully on the most appropriate charge. This District Attorney will again determine what to do with you. It might come down to facing trial.
If the Jury finds you NOT GUILTY, then your home free, as to criminal charges. YOUR not out of the woods yet, YOU may face a law suit by the surviving family members. COPS face that dilema all the time. The family will be screaming YOU should have just shot the gun out of their brothers hand.
To protect yourself in such cases, if your a wealthy person like LB, you might wish to take out personal liability coverage if you are one who works or lives in a bad area. CHECK your home owners policy, see if they have coverage for you on such issues. I have it, and it covers slander and liable issues too. The insurance company will provide a lawyer if you are sued. But CHECK and make sure.
If NOT get it. A nice little piece of security.
[ June 08, 2011, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Ken
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posted June 08, 2011 08:13 AM
Allow me to clear up a SERIOUS misconception that some have about lawyers.
Cops are CONSTANTLY intimidated by citizens with my lawyer is going to have your ass, I will be out of here, my lawyer will stop this crap dead in his tracks, blah,blah,blah. Yea OKAY, MAYBE?
YOUR lawyer has NOT an ounce of power or authority to stop an arrest from taking place.
OH he or she can holler,scream,threaten all day long, it won't stop the cops from arresting you.
YOUR lawyer will kick our ass in the courtroom, NOT on the street or at the police station.
The courtroom is the lawyers house. NOW they are in charge of the cop. IF the cops have screwed up, that is where the showdown takes place.
ALWAYS better to maintain a professional relationship with lawyers, NO matter who they are. I don't care to get on their shit list because I am always being an asshole with them. In most case the feeling is mutual.
I have had a couple lawyers try and intimidate me on the streets, I simply smiled and said, "don't go there counsler". Payback was a bitch, once I got into the courtroom.
So remember, a lawyer is part of the check and balance system in our society. Remember it's the guy in the black robe or the jury who has the final say.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 08, 2011 08:27 AM
Ken, the way you explained the various scenarios fits what I have read or heard before. Good for you.
About 20 years ago, I was visiting an old golfing buddy in Tampa, FL. He lived in the north end of town which was a pretty bad area. Most people had bars on their windows, alarm systems, and a good watchdog. One old fellow and his wife, both about 80 years old, were shopping in a Publix supermarket. When they came back out to their car, the old fellow unlocked the car on the passenger side and let his wife get in, and then he unlocked the rear to put in his groceries. After finishing that, he came around and got in the driver's side. One of the local motorcycle gang thugs came up to the car, reached in and tried to pull the wife's purse out and was about to take her arm with it. The old fellow pulled his 357 magnum out and popped the big ugly bastard dead center in the chest, dropping him right there. Not only was he not arrested or even charged, the local cops patroled his house at odd intervals to take care of him and his wife. He was their hero.
We used to have laws here in Kentucky that said a burglar had to be halfway in your house before you were justified in shooting him. They changed that several years ago and now you only have to feel like you are in danger, even out in your yard or in a public place.
I sure wish I had caught the bastards that broke in on us in September 2009. I wouldn't have worried for even a second about any of that stuff. I find that a lot of people are intimidated by the law in these regards, but I believe it is mainly because they don't understand what the law actually is. Perhaps it should be posted in the newspaper on a regular basis to keep the people educated.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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Ken
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Member # 3065
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posted June 08, 2011 08:49 AM
Now those reading all this stuff may be asking themselves a bunch a questions, they may or may not have a better understanding of the system or a starting point on where to look for such laws in their state to further answers questions.
Some could care less, but they will if they come under the scrutiny of the law arm of the law.
Have I covered ALL the variables, the WHAT IF's and could be's, NOT EVEN close as far as I am concerned.
Might have added some confusion to the mess for some.
WELCOME to the CLUB of decision making in a critical situation. LIFE or DEATH to be exact, someone else's life or YOURS.
It has taken me several hours over the last couple days to put just SOME information forth and I am not even close to covering all the possible scenarios that can unfold.
BUT ALL this shit discussed MUST be decided in a few seconds in WAY too many cases on when to shoot or not shoot.
If your confused, so are some cops on the street. WHO they are remains to be determined, and I am sorry to say ONLY after something happens will most of us know.
NATURE of the beast, WERE all human. Easy to quarterback when your not pulling the trigger or driving the bus.
Is what I have said here the GOSPEL, NO FREAKIN way, it is a perspective. A simple think and go out on your own and learn what the laws are and the procedures in your local area.
I had many a good teacher in my day. DID I think the sun rose and set in their ass, yes some, but I still had to go read the law for myself.
When I went to court, I'd look the fool if I answered questions posed by counsel with, "my sergeant told me this, and this person told me that, SO I did it. BAD MISTAKE, you have now earned a reputation of STUPID among lawyers and judges especially if what your were told was wrong.
Use what you are told by those in the know as a GUIDE to further education and further research.
A simple starting point on ANY issue you are might not know about.
Protecting you rights and working within the law is a serious issue.
If you hide in the house all day, THEN don't worry about too much.
THIS IS NOT legal advise. This is something to THINK about if your anti-cop, but wonder about what to do in a given situation.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 08, 2011 08:59 AM
Staying or hiding in the house is not the answer up here. Home invasions are getting far too commonplace. We have had 5 or 6 home invasions in this general neighborhood in the past few months. Two of the homes didn't even have their deadbolt locked, which is asking for trouble, IMO.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted June 08, 2011 09:22 AM
quote:
Okay, as soon as the concrete dries, I will bust it up and dig up my means of self defense.
Good thing you decided to buy that Glock.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
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Ken
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Member # 3065
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posted June 08, 2011 09:53 AM
Remember I said cops can be just as confused as citizens, they worry sometimes what might happen if they do x,y and z?
My first shooting in April 1994 left me wondering what might happen to me as a result of what I did, REMEMBER I was not loved by some of those in power, because I had arrested some of their friends for DUI. SO yes there were a couple who hoped to hang me on this particular shooting. THAT's what I was told by the honest cops I worked with. BEHIND the scenes crap. I CAME out CLEAN and JUSTIFIED on my shooting.
I WAS under more scrutiny and the microscope just because of that. AS a result of ALL the unknowns going on it flat FUCKED UP my ability and mind to make day to day decisions while ALL this shit was going on, and react instinctively to what I had been trained to do, and done many times before.
I was working while I awaited the findings of the DA. I encounter a burglar coming out of an apartment, detained him. While searching him for weapons, I discovered a large screwdriver in his back pocket.
When I started to reach for it, the fight was on. All I could do was struggle to stay on top of him to control him. He was a little guy, so that helped a little, but he was a squirrel.
I finally fell on top of him, I was able to keep him down, but not able to handcuff him and keep him on the deck.
It was on a busy street in the morning, rush hour traffic, lots of folks watchin, BUT no one helping.
I was able to get to my radio and call for help. Once I put out the help call, I could hear the calvary was coming, not only from my guys, but the neighboring city which I was on the border of.
Hearing sirens give ones some extra energy, but I sure as hell had reach my adrenalin peak NO MORE energy. ONCE your adrenaline leaves your body, YOU become weak.
The calvary arrived and tooked the turd into custody.
When I tried to stand, I couldn't. I sat there on the ground like a helpless fool for a few minutes. One of the guys sat down with me and we fired up a smoke and chatted.
He asked me if I was OKAY, I looked at him and said, "fuck no", I gotta go see the boss, I need some time off. He helped me up, said he would take my crook and handle the paperwork, and to go back to the office, NOW!!! He was an old timer himself and knew what was going on.
I went to my boss and told him what happened. He said Kenny you know by policy I gotta take your gun and send you home don't you? I said yes sir. I AIN'T taken your gun, but you get your ass home and relax, I'll call you in a couple days.
My Lieutenant was an old homicide detective and had investigated hundreds of officer involved shootings, he knew what was going on, and the stress of wondering about the outcome of a shooting one had been involved in.
After some time off and a little therapy I was as good as new and back to being an asshole.
This is all human mind boggling shit that all of you could or have went through on any given number of issues. FEAR of the unknown is the biggest factor. Remember I told you, I understand fear from many perspectives.
Back in 1994 if you talked about anything like this openly some cops would just refer to you as a PUSSY. MACHO cops die too!!!
If you want to help someone understand something, you tell them everything. You cannot learn from anything if what information you are getting is SELECTIVE.
You now know why I felt for the poor lady who stabbed those two turds defending her husband.
[ June 08, 2011, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
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22-250
Knows what it's all about
Member # 36
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posted June 08, 2011 10:41 AM
Ken, thanks you posts are very helpful.
On another thought, what you think of the recent surge in the right to carry movement in California. Meaning the people who exercising their right to opening carry a firearm, which is not loaded. i.e. no round in the chamber with the magazine loaded. It seems to be getting a lot of attention lately.
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The coyote is a living, breathing allegory of Want. He is always hungry. He is always poor, out of luck and friendless. The meanest creatures despise him and even the flea would desert him for a velocipede.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 08, 2011 11:41 AM
You never know what the Democrats in Sacramento will do to your civil rights, but they will try their best.
As some know, I carry a purse. It's heavy, but could prove useful one day.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 08, 2011 11:50 AM
You can open carry here in MI. I don't see too many people doing it though. Once in a great while I will see someone but...
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted June 08, 2011 01:31 PM
Uh...............El Bee;
Decendants of the mountain men don't carry a 'purse'. They carry a 'possibles bag' that will contain items to deal with possible problems.
Just say'n.............
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
Member # 1526
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posted June 08, 2011 01:38 PM
A 'purse'??? Never heard it called that before.
It's 'an urban man-bag'. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
My bro and I were just talking about open carry yesterday over lunch, and we both agreed that even if it was legal here, we'd still carry concealed. Don't like being bullet magnets, and do like the element of surprise.
Thought about getting an urban man-bag once, but then I'd have to get pumps and a feather boa...the cost to properly accessorize just wasn't worth it.
[ June 08, 2011, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 08, 2011 02:47 PM
To deflect wise ass comments, I beat them to it by calling it a purse. At times I have said it's my holster, and at other times I said the purpose was to carry my medication.
What totally pisses me off is when gaining access to some event, even a movie, my wife would pass through without a blink, even though she had the coke cans, but they asked to look in my medication bag. WTF?
I refuse, while asking why they did not look in her purse, which is one reason why she goes in front of me. Well, did go in front of me, I mean. They always back off, at least so far.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
Member # 1526
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posted June 08, 2011 02:57 PM
Shit, if I toted one of them around, I'd tell them that's where I carry my condoms.
Or tell'em it's where you carry your meds, and hey, they aren't trying to violate your HIPAA rights, are they???? I mean, that's Federal violations right there. Or wait, are they sexually discriminating??? That's more Federal violations. Hmmm. Who should you call first...the Feds...your attorney...the media??? Tell'em you'll be logging this incident (get the dweeb's first AND last name), and if such transgressions continue, that would constitute a pattern of conduct and would be actionable on multiple levels!!!
Or, hey, do you ask the brothers to look in their urban man-bags? Is this some kind of racial thing?????
It doesn't mean shit, but it sounds good! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ June 08, 2011, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
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