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Author
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Topic: Umm? This is a very disturbing video
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 05, 2010 01:03 PM
Comments welcome. LB
http://collateralmurder.com/
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 05, 2010 01:33 PM
I don't believe they would have fired at the van had they known there were chldren in it. I know I wouldn't have.
Collateral damage. Very unfortunate.
Criminal? No.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 05, 2010 03:02 PM
I might have a somewhat unique perspective on this given that I have a half dozen or so families where the dad (usually) is assigned to the Big Red One, First ID out of Fort Riley, Kansas and several of who are pilots with the 6th Air Cav, and all of whom have been over there at least once in combat. This video, and the commentary running behind it, makes me think that "baby killers" will be next. All of the guys I have met and know are the utmost of professionals in what they do for the military. None of them have ever done or said anything to lead me to believe that they enjoy what they've been involved with over there and I can guarantee you that none of those were killed for the sheer joy of killing. They have a very difficult job to do over there where the insurgents look just like the residents. Maybe the two journalists should have known better than to go into a zone like that without notifying those patrolling the area that they would be there. To show up, gather a crowd and then sneak around the perimeters of buildings like that drawing attention. Yes, there were people killed that shouldn't have been fired upon. But, even at that, it wasn't that long ago that our strategy would have been to carpet bomb the entire city reducing it to rubble and killing thousands along the way.
I agree... tragically unfortunate, but not criminal. As for the language on the video? Pretty much goes along with what I posted yesterday. From the outside, it sounds like something more than it is.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 05, 2010 05:21 PM
No doubt that the video looks really bad. But............the video is a snapshot in time. It does not show what happened minutes, hours or days before. For all that I know, the helio may have taken ground to air fire every time that it flew over that intersection, and now, there are potential threats. I wasn't there & don't have all of the facts. I'll withhold judgement.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7584 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted April 05, 2010 06:09 PM
Let me give a story. On our way to Church service yesterday morning, we got a phone call from our DIL. She and my two grandbabies live alone in Germany. My son is in Afghanistan. Her call was brief, but the crux of the conversation was that my son had been sent out on a "mission", an IED had aborted the mission. All she knew was there were some injuries but no fatalities and would report back when she had more information.
After services my wife and I went out to eat. As we were entering the restaurant her cell phone rang. It was my son.
The conversation was brief. He is a SGT with an Airborne MP fast strike unit. They had assembled and drove out the gate. He was in the lead UAV, there were more units behind him allthough he didn't say how many. His driver rounded the first curve through a tight spot less that 400 meters from the gate. The next unit made the same path as did the third. The third unit went into the air as the IED exploded. He did say they thought it was to separate the line so evidently more were behind this unit. The UAV was able to drive back into the gate with some damage, mostly cosmetic. One soldier was hit through the thigh with shrapnel and all the occupants of that vehicle were bruised from the blast. It was a remotely triggered device meaning the enemy had set it off when they wanted it to go off as they watched the convoy go by.
If he fires on and kills a civilian tomorrow because that guy is watching him go by while punching on a cell phone, I will have no problems with his decision.
War is Hell, if they don't want to be killed get out of the way.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 05, 2010 06:21 PM
Randy, the thing that occurs to me is that, so close to the front gate, how come the guards never noticed that kind of activity, digging holes, etc.?
However, I agree with every thing you said.
But, we don't know what happened previous, in this video, but I.D.ing a video camera as a weapon, was unfortunate, and who was this Buckwheat feller and how did he know so much as to be able to give permission? I don't know? In this case, judging by what is there, it seemed very questionable, to me....and I have very little sympathy for the (so called) innocent civilians. The militants use the civilians and the civilians use the militants, same with the mosques. If they are shooting from a mosque, or seeking refuge in a mosque right after hostile action, I don't think they deserve the protection. Too much POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 05, 2010 07:11 PM
At right around 3:43 in the video you can see a man holding what appears to be an RPG. Look above and slightly to the right of the reticle. The man swings the weapon around and you can just make out the head of the RPG. It also looks too big to be an AK.
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted April 05, 2010 07:20 PM
I asked him the same thing Leonard. He said it was around a bend and in a blind spot.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted April 05, 2010 07:27 PM
This country has become too sanitized. We are fighting a enemy that wants to kill us all. Men, women and children. They want me and you dead. They want our kids dead. They want our wives dead. Why cant people get that?
And yet, our boys and girls are forced to fight with their hands tied and have to answer for literally every shot they take. God forbid they kill a kid or a woman.
Fuck that shit. Kill those ragheaded sumbitches before they kill us and we end up fighting here on our soil. I would just as soon our boys make a mistake once in a while and kill one they shouldnt as to miss one they should.
Sorry if my view isnt popular or PC, but as usual, I dont care. Just how I see it.
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Andy
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 05, 2010 09:38 PM
If I had to take sides, Im falling in line with Andys' line of thinking. I suppose I would draw a line, if there is such a thing, at wanton killing of innocents, but when the distinction is so blurred,and the use of civilians are used for a saftey screen, all bets are. If your among a bunch of ragheads shooting at US soldiers, you are the enemy period.
I have the same sentiments concerning the past hand wringing from the progressives about torture. I could give a rats ass If you use electricty, water, rubber hoses or road flares to gather information. If you have a suspected insurgent(the enemy), that possibly has information we can use to our advantage....fuck em. Randys sons life, Leonards gransons life, my son or your sons life, is way more valuable in my eyes than any individual of the muslim faith associated with, or attempting to shoot them or blow them up with IEDs.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 06, 2010 04:34 AM
Andy make a good point, in his own subtle way. It's pretty simple though; There's our side that we want to come home unharmed and then there's the side that danced in the streets when our towers fell..............
I do try to keep an open mind, look at both sides, yada yada yada, but I'm really beginning to dislike those hairy little bastards. 'Religion of peace' my ass!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TheHuntedOne
Knows what it's all about
Member # 623
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posted April 06, 2010 08:48 AM
Kill them all and let Mohammad sort 'em out
Terrorist will get 72 Virgins
Civilians will be in a better place.
It's a win win.
Our troops will get to come home, 7-11's will start hiring American workers, and you'll actually be able to understand the guy on the Customer Service Line.
I don't see a down side?
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Bopeye
PLATINUM MEMBER
Member # 907
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posted April 06, 2010 09:35 AM
When the towers were hit I came home that afternoon and picked up my 12 day old son. I sat on the couch and I cried. I cried like a baby and my 4 year old daughter asked why I was crying.
My reply,"Because a war has come to this country that my children will have to fight". She didn't understand then, but she is starting to now. She is almost 13 and my son is rapidly approaching 9. That's halfway to the age of serving.
I can't help but agree with Andy. Kill 'em. When in doubt pull the damn trigger. They aren't our friends. They don't like us. They are using us like a child uses a rich stepdad. They just want some money and supplies and then to hell with us.
KILL 'EM. This is war! They chose to bring it to us.
I hate to see innocents killed as much as anybody, but what about our innocent kids over there in uniform dying for a people that doesn't give two shits about them? Kill 'em.
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted April 06, 2010 10:10 AM
When we (the USA) bombed the German cities in WW2, I'm sure we only killed German soldiers. War is hell, we do what is required to win, it reminds us of why we should avoid it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 06, 2010 11:03 AM
Dan, that has been debated ad infinitum. As in the case of Curtis Lemay using incendiary bombs at low levels and causing firestorms and more death and destruction than atomic bombs, the plan was to destroy their will to resist.
Such is not the case in Iraq and Afghanistan. There is so much PC shit that it's a wonder we kill anybody? But, if those civilians knew we were going to hose down everybody in a mixed group, they wouldn't be so eagar to allow themselves to be used as a shield. They would clear the hell out at the first shot fired, or know what was coming, in short order.
So, all of these people, they have no incentive to stop resisting. Just like yesterday, that idiot Obama announces all ther details about when they won't retaliate, in the case of those worthless countries dropping a bomb on us. He is beyond stupid, more sanctions on Iran, WHOOPIE! That's sure to work, right? Never has before, but isn't that the definition of an idiot, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?
First of all, we have maybe one friend in the whole world? China and Russia? Let's drop all pretense, they are not our friends. We should blockade Iran, keeping them from getting refined gasoline and fuck the Chinese and the Russians. No gas, and let the revolt begin.
And this Karzai? Maybe he should take a stray bullet? Considering all the resources and money we have dumped into that country, it's time to quit playing games. They spend way too much time investigating questionable deaths among the civilian population when there really does not seem to be any innocent civilians over ten years old?
This is the same old thing as Nam. Get in there, do what needs to be done and enforce compliance, then get the hell out. WE conquered the whole friggin' world in four years in 1945. Why in the hell is it taking this long to get the job done, in the mideast? Quit dicking around with Israel, let them defend their interests instead of telling them that they can't build in their own capital.
This Obama is such an idiot. And now it appears he will be allowed to nominate another liberal Supreme Court Justice! Man! You guys never learn, do ya? You vote for this totally unqualified idiot and look what you get? He can cause damage that will last long after he is out of office. And, he told us what he was going to do. The Democrats riled up so much anger toward Bush that it was going to hell to pay. The electorate voted for a complete incompetent and he is proving this every day he is in office.
It's just tragic and shameful and incredibly sad, all at the same time. His priorities are social programs when he should be enforcing American interests all over the world. Just think if he would have spent all the stimulus money and the Health Care money and the GM, etc etc money on DEFENSE? That would generate a revival, just like under Reagan. Arrogant Obama wouldn't make a pimple on Ronald Reagan's ass.
End of rant! LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted April 06, 2010 12:06 PM
So, uhh, Im not sure I understand Elbee? Do you like Obama or not? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Andy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 06, 2010 12:18 PM
To quote my buddy, NASA; I can't make it any simpler for ya.
It's no damned wonder you have such a hard time on these message boards! You apparently have the reading skills, but your comprehension is way down in the weeds with your favorite ethnic group. What's your excuse?
No, I do not like that arrogant teleprompting bastard. And, just like Rush, I want him to fail. Like he is.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted April 06, 2010 12:33 PM
ROFLMFAO!! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Andy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 06, 2010 12:40 PM
We love ya, Andy. Now that Tim's gone, you need to step up to the plate! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted April 06, 2010 12:50 PM
Bopeye, I guess I missed your post?
I got a boy that just turned 16 and another about to turn 10. I have a 16 yr old boy that needed a home and I took him in a few months ago. My oldest and the other boy are both talking about joining the USMC. It is a very noble thing to join the service and I respect everyone that does it. It also scares the shit out of me to know that my son, that seems like he should still be in the crib, could very well be in the sandbox in two years. I cant tell him not to do it. Its his decision.
I just wish to hell we could get this over with. Like I said, kill them sumbitches and come home. We could finish this in weeks, if we would just turn them loose and let them do what they were trained to do. The cleanup will come later.
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Andy
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted April 06, 2010 03:13 PM
The other night I watched a movie that took place in Iran in 1986 (based on a true story). It was about an Iranian husband who wanted to get rid of his wife becaues he wanted to marry another woman. So he set up his wife with an adultery allegation, knowing the penalty was death. The wife was tried in their kangaroo court and was found guilty. They dug a hole and stuck her in it and filled up the hole with dirt leaving her upper body exposed above ground and they stoned her to death.
Animals.
I lost an old squadmate in Iraq two years ago. He was killed when they set a bomb off during a meeting with Iraqi officials. He was a nice guy.
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Aznative
FARTS ON CLUELESS LIBERALS
Member # 506
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posted April 06, 2010 05:17 PM
quote:
Arrogant Obama wouldn't make a pimple on Ronald Reagan's ass.
This one is a keeper Leonard.
It was obvious that the GIs mistook the camera bags for AKs, but to me they really did look like AKs. There was one guy that had an RPG. That call was 100 percent correct so I don't blame them for blowing them to hell.
We need to forget all the PC shit and start fighting to win. We will cause collateral damage no matter how we fight this war, but if we fight to win, it will be over quicker for all of us.
If these two reporters hadn't been mixed in with this crowd, these tapes would have never surfaced. Bottom line: Shit happens. Bigger shit happens in war.
After reveiwing the video a second time, I'm editing this in: There are two guys with weapons. One with probably an AK and another with an RPG.
[ April 06, 2010, 05:39 PM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 07, 2010 06:16 AM
I have not watched the video. Not going to. Don't have time.
But, I'll offer something related to video you see on the internet, without knowing the full context.
Years ago, some worthless piece of shit took a video clip I had made and posted on my website and used it to create an internet hoax. The video clip is me and my buddy Tim, shooting rock chucks. But it got forwarded with a long message claiming it was footage of a sniper in Afghanistan shooting Taliban with a .50 cal. It got forwarded and posted and sent and resent until it had circled the internet over and over again.
There were literally hundreds of thousands of people fooled by it. Maybe a million people or more, even? Still, to this day, it's easy to find that clip posted somewhere, with the majority of people (now) pointing out what it really is. But still, to this day, there are stupid fawkers breaking it down frame by frame and claiming to "clearly see" an arm, or a turban, or a hand, or a rifle, or whatever it is that they "can clearly see". But it's all just 'chuck guts flying through the air.
My only point being, if you have to look several times, stop and start, stare at it frame by frame to decide that what you see is a weapon, or not, the fact is that you really don't have any idea what you are or are not seeing.
Not only should you not believe ANYTHING that you hear on the internet, but you really shouldn't believe MOST of what you think you see, either.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted April 07, 2010 10:20 AM
Dave,
Excellent post! However, the video seems pretty legit. I clicked the first video called shorter version thinking I was only gonna watch a min. or 2 because I didn't have time. It didn't work out that way - I got suckered in.
It is a very thought provoking video. It had me really considering and wondering what it must be like to be in war. At the very least, it is a great mental exercise - no, not sure what you'd call it, just thought provoking I guess.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 07, 2010 10:46 AM
The military is pointing out a few editorial decisions, like slowing down the video in some places and deemphasizing a couple places where they could have shown "clearly" (arrows, etc.) a couple RPG's, if their intent was truly full disclosure.
But, the larger question, (at least for me) is the foolhardy reporters and cameramen, not just here, but in numerous examples, that go to questionable places and risk their lives for the sake of a story. Don't these two unfortunate people realize that bopping along with bad guys with weapons can be a dangerous thing? Is this the Darwin effect?
No doubt, they can hear the chopper. As was said in the rebuttal, most innocent civilians get the hell off the street when shots are fired, and this is what is shown. A normally busy street, everybody ducks for cover, except a certain few people, out in the open. Maybe these reporters thought they were bulletproof?
I guess the Pentagon is saying it was justified, under the circumstances? And, if there was the slightest chance that it wasn't justified, the Obama admin. would be all over the troops. Bet on that!
Good hunting. LB
edit: Hey, Dave's right! I can "clearly see" a arm and some turbans, w/ 'chuck guts mixed in, when I slowed it down, watching it the second time! (just kidding)
[ April 07, 2010, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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