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Author
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Topic: I admit it, I am a contrary butthead
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 16, 2024 03:13 PM
When it comes to firearms, I have always had an attitude about certain chamberings. I always thought the 30'06 was completely boring, and unexciting.
I always thought in favor of performance. I vastly prefer 270 Winchester, the first centerfire I owned. And, I dislike 308 Winchester because it is less than the 30'06 Springfield.
On the other hand, I really like the 25'06, which I owned for a while but then, or since then, I have had a couple 25'05Ackley Improved. Still have my second, the first was stolen. But for some of my hunting, it really shines. And, forget the bullet weight question, I decided YEARS AGO, that a 100 grain spitzer is perfect for what I do. I've done the 75 and the 117 but the 100 grain is where it shines, on a par with the 257Weatherby in performance.
What I don't like. I don't like 308 Winchester because it's too plain Vanilla. I always preferred the 6mm Remington over the 243Winchester, and yet I own two, one in the Ackley Improved version.
I used to think the 7MM Rem Mag was just about perfect, and then I came across a deal on a slightly used 300WinMag, with every intention of rebarreling it to the 7Mag. Fortunately, I used it in the 300 configuration and became convinced that it is just about perfect and completely forgot about my interest in the 7RemMag.
It's when you look at statistics that you see convincing data. Whereas, I thought the 7Rem Mag was so hard to beat but the numbers don't lie and the 300 outperforms the 7Mag in every way that matters.
I just love my 300, in the Model 700Remington.It is tricked out in subtle improvements, like the McMillan stock and several upgrades and it's just a performer. And, it doesn't look like it was raped by some ugly AR15 as a lot of people are inclined to do with a big game rifle these days. It's a classic, and very hard to improve on with M slots and other Military origins that today's crowd thinks is so sexy.
But, finally getting to my latest hard on. I can't stand anything with Creedemore in the title. You can change the objective and use extremely long for caliber bullets and think it's cool to sling lead at big game at ridiculous distances, but I am not a fan!
I do not believe in long range hunting! I think animals can move slightly, thereby ruining your perfect sniping shot and maybe losing an animal. Exactly like when Trump moves his head slightly, and instead of splattering his brains all over the fans in the audience, he luckily just nicked his ear.
With an elk, those 800 yard shots can mutilate his head or blast him in the antler, or who actually knows what could happen? The point is, animals can move at long range and it doesn't matter what an accurate rifle you have, you can always miss what you are aiming at!
Now, yu think you are going to make an 800 yard shot with a 6.5 Creedmore and anything but a perfect shot will just cause problems. And then you have to go find him while it's getting dark.
I once made a bad hit on a running Mulie buck and as he was going uphill, I could put a shot right between his shoulder blades. Except, he jumped over something just as I fired and I caught him an inch right of his tail, in the ham and he ran a mile. Literally. The blood trail in the snow was easy to follow and he died under a pine tree a mile away on the other side of the mountain. Didn't need a second shot, he just bled out. Forgot to mention that my shot was about 90/100 yards or so and I never had a chance to shoot again.
I don't know what my point is, but I have an opinion about shooting game animals at long range and I think it's bullshit, and it's trending very popular but it's easy for a clean shot to turn to shit, while that bullet is in transit.
What's common in a 6.5 Creedmore? 145grain or so? Maybe lighter if using those sexy copper monolithic bullets. I do not like it and I think the gun writers are promoting this long range hunting like it's really cool to kill your elk or antelope or sheep or bear at long range, like you are a hero for making a long shot.
I think it's cruel and stupid and short sighted and can very easily turn to shit and I condemn the "INFLUENCERS" or whatever you might call these writers on line, or in gun magazines, promoting this new and sexy method of big game hunting.
It's like;
"Oh, you shot your caribou at only 565 yards?"
"BFD, I killed one last year at over 754 yards!" "And, dead in his tracks, BTW."
Who cares about double shovels or anything else. It was the shot that we are bragging about, these days.
Does anybody see my point? Even the rifle configuration has changed. They now all look like Accuracy International's, butt ugly with every option as a bench rest target rifle.
OKAY. End of rant! I hope somebody gets my point: long range hunting is unfortunately trendy, and I am against it, for the average schmuk!
End of rant
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32002 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 16, 2024 06:43 PM
Always wanted a 2506 but didn't care for the recoil or loud bang so never got one. Pred. mostly here and all I want is minimum hide damage and something fast and flat and little recoil. I did a bit of research on some of the new odd ball cal. but nothing there to suite me unless I would go the wildcat route and neck one down but don't think there is much of an improvement over what's already there.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 17, 2024 07:53 AM
Well, some of these new cartridges, all they seem to offer is a change in certain dimensions like a longer throat to accommodate very long for caliber bullets. Doesn't take a hero to alter some spec or barrel twist and claim that you have created a new Grendel or some reason to claim your purpose is solid copper accuracy, or some other bone to pick with established data. In other words, just specifying a fast twist in a very otherwise pedestrian cartridge is no reason to think that you are an inventor.
But there are people that think that they have "invented" or created something "NEW", like we really need more confusion, even if all it amounts to is like changing the name to something like a .307Winchester because the primer pocket is changed or now it has a rimmed or rebated or "semi" something? This is for people with too much time on their hands, not brainiacks that just solved a problem vexing humanity for centurys. Or, at least decades.
END OF RANT
Good hunting. El Bee
There really is nothing new under the sun.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 17, 2024 10:37 AM
well some of the new cartridges is just designed to get more use out of a AR with a better choice of cartridge than dam 223. And some are wrapped around a 6.5 cal. bullet which tends to be the most accurate cal. bullet out there for shooting past 500 yards but like said not all of us shoot that far on coyotes all day long. But does leave us with another choice.
I have been using 22-250 last few years on nighttime coyotes and I'm not satisfied with its performance on coyotes. I think I got all carbon cleaned out of my 17 Pred. and will try to use it this season as I know it has a better track record than the 22-250 has shown so far. But I also got the new barrel on the Ackley so going to give it one full season again. I have two thermal scopes so one goes on 17 Pred. and other on the 22-250 ackley.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 17, 2024 12:16 PM
I'm not exactly confused, but still not clear what could possibly be 'dissatisfaction' with a 22-250 Ackley, on coyotes.
With a decent bullet, you won't even have any hide damage, just a pass through and massive hydrostatic shock for a bang/flop.
What am I missing?
Be specific, Tim. Because you have a long row to hoe! A 22-250Ackley with a decent twist is the fucking GOLD STANDARD for a coyote killer at any reasonable distance.
I'm waiting....
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: just to be clear, when I was campaigning with a 220Swift, I almost always used a target bullet, either 52 or 53 grain flat base.
When I went with the 22-250Ackley, I found out that 52-55 grain bullets were going far too fast, like 42-45000fps! So, I experimented with 65 grain Bergers and that's been my load for around 20 years, zero second thoughts.
[ August 17, 2024, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 17, 2024 08:24 PM
The ackley is just fine in most cases but can also be little messy at times and why I used it for longer shots on coyotes, less mess farther out. The 22-250 is what I had issues with and still do that's why I'm going to try the 17 Pred. again if barrel holds up. Had a big issue with carbon fouling and hope I got it all out and it stays away for a while or off to gun smith for new barrel. 4500fps?? I don't need that kind of speed just want the magic 3800-4000 fps.
My 20x47 Lapua can really toss them out there at 4300 fps or little more, but I don't want that either so going to load it down if I bring it out this winter.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 18, 2024 10:10 AM
Well, that's the thing. You never know what a barrel will do. Those numbers I quoted above are with a 28" Hart match barrel.
This main coyote rifle I have now is based on a 243 necked to .224". One of those things where the "inventor" couldn't just be satisfied with a simple 22/243. No, he had to screw with the shoulder and neck in small fractions. It's a Shilen target barrel 24" but it tops out at around 3850fps. So, it's not a screamer, but it's a damned handy rig!
You never know what a barrel will do at top end until you get there and then back it off to something reasonable. I go by the condition of the primer. Flat primer and/or cratered primer means I went one step too far and I back it off to something below MAX and if the accuracy is OK, or hopefully, better than OK, then I'm done experimenting.
I do not believe in performance above practicality. I expect my load to last a long time. To hell with excessive pressures on the brass, the necks, incipient case head separation, and all the grief that goes with performance right on the ragged edge!
I'm too cheap to intentionally burn up a match barrel to squeeze the last few fps out of it. I try to keep my pressure reasonable and hope that the accuracy will last as long as possible.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: and by the way, I said that this bullet I have been using holds together and I get a clean pass through. Most of the time, pelt condition is secondary but I'd rather not blow them up.
[ August 18, 2024, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 18, 2024 01:44 PM
I think you may have me confused with DAA on hot loads. Your manual will show a safe starting load and a safe maximum load, which means if you rifle is capable of it and good condition the max load will be safe in a given rifle. Just have to watch it if you go to a place that has big elevation change, plus temp and other things to consider. I don't load past max. safe load from a manual and also checked it to be sure it is safe. But on same note I will not reduce a load down from max safe load as it defeats the purpose of the cartridge I chose to use.
Makes no sense to load a 22-250 ackley down from safe max. to 22-250 performance and makes no sense to load a 22-250 down to 223 performance or load a 223 down to 221 f.b. performance.
if you do have a issue with a max. safe load in a certain rifle then switch to a different powder brand/burn rate. Some powders in certain cartridges can get little touchy at max. so switch to something else less sensitive. RL-15 can be sensitive and accurate arms 223.
test different powders and you then know who you can trust and who you can't with a certain cartridge. My go to bullets in .224 cal are hornady 52 A-max, berger 52 gr. H.P. and Sierra 52 gr. match h.p.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 24, 2024 10:44 AM
My first deer rifle was a Rem 700 BDL 30-06, worked great in MO and was big enough for elk out west, I still have a -06 but it is the older CZ 550. My next favorite was/is a CZ 550 6.5x55 for deer again. When I got a suppressor. I didn't want to alter the CZ so I bought a Howa 6.5 CM, cut it down to 18" and threaded for a can. I use 129gr Hornady bullets in both my 6.5's, they work great here. Now as far as distance, 300 is a long poke for me, deer or coyotes. Most shots are 150 or less.
I like so many different cartridges for coyotes I have several favorites. From a 6mm XC and 6 BR down to my 17's, my honest favorite is a little Kimber Montana 223 AI with a Lilja barrel. I know bullets bounce off with a 223, but I called in and killed 5 on one stand with it. They all came in at once and I guess the moon and stars lined up for me and my dog that day. Never have repeated that to this day.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 24, 2024 10:54 AM
Tim, I understand your opinion on loading down, but just don't agree. I have been lucky enough to have rifles chambered in 223,22-250 and 243, in both standard and AI chambers. If I only had a 22-250, which BTW is one of the most common cartridges I recommend for coyotes, I could see someone loading down if they found an accuracy load, and didn't have tons of different powders. My favorite bullets in my 22 cals is the 50 Nosler BT and Sierra 55 SBT. IMO a 25-30lb coyote at calling distance just isn't that hard to kill. Again I am a sport hunter and not a contest or ADC guy.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 24, 2024 02:50 PM
WELL, THE THING ABOUT the 22-250Ackley is that you gain two significant advantages. First of all, it outperforms the 220Swift and handles heavier bullets. Second, and as a man that hunted with the Swift for 15 years, the Ackley is so much better on brass and I easily got 12-15 reloads, mainly or maybe because I never hotrod the Ackley Improved. There's no need. With a safe, less than balls to the walls MAX load, I get better performance and none of the routine culling with the Swift. No enlarged primer pockets, no split necks and very little if any trimming to length.
They talk about the dredded "Donut" but I've not seen it.
Really, what's not to like?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 24, 2024 05:54 PM
Dan if you study reloading manuals and try few powders you can get a accuracy load at max safe load. You try different guns and calibers; I like to try different powders I have on hand and get the best load for the money. But like said I won't cut or reduce a load to get the next caliber below performance. Defeating purpose of having a fast car if you know what I mean. As for powders I use mostly the same in all my rifles, look around can find one that works for what I have. 221 F.B. and 17 mach-4 uses same powder as well between two so I could actually get by with just two burn rates and call it good. I tried some 22-250 ackley fire form loads in my Bagara 22-250 and that gun loves them as well nice little clover leaf groups. same powder and same bullet, whats not to like.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2024 11:08 AM
Tim, your advice could cause serious problems with someone lacking knowledge. Choosing different bullets, within a certain range is no big deal.
Choosing different primers is almost inconsequential. Yes, they burn at slightly different intensities, but as long as they stay in the same lane, rifle primers, they can't make a serious mistake.
But powder? If someone strays from generally recommended powders and their burning rate, you can blow up a fucking action using too much of a fast powder.
Lots of people, including me, use some shotgun powders in large capacity pistol reloading.
The way I read what you wrote, it pretty much doesn't matter; just experiment and you will stumble upon a usable recipe and It's all good!
But, it ain't all good. A newbe just starting out would do well to observe data and stick with the options listed. You might be competent to try a recipe nobody else ever thought of, but!
For sure, not being aware of burning rates for certain case capacity is just plain looking for trouble! Experienced handloaders can use unlisted powders with discretion and start low and work up as indicated, but a newbe doesn't even know what the hell to look for! It's like; it doesn't matter- powder's powder....right?
So that's a word to the wise. Experimenting with the wide range of what is available is pretty much bullshit. All the reloading manuals TELL EVERYBODY to stick to the formula or all bets are off!
That's wise advice! Yeah, I change some stuff around, here or there, if I have a specific reason. But, just having an attitude of "let's try this, what the hell could go wrong?" You will soon find out if you stray from published data when you don't know the difference.
That's all I go to say about that; use caution and stick to published data until you acquire a lot more knowledge!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted August 25, 2024 11:42 AM
Ok ........ I don't claim to know squat about reloading. A few boxes of handgun ammo with a Lee kit, a scoop and a plastic hammer. Crude & slow but they always made a loud noise when I yanked the trigger.
Question; How much of the reloading manuals have been 'lawyer proofed' ??? As in ..... we made it fool proof but now we need to make it damn fool proof so that nobody sues us so we'll reduce the max loads by about 25% ????? Just to be on the safe side. Or does 'Max' really mean Max ???
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 25, 2024 11:47 AM
KOKO, IMO the manuals are a great guideline. Yes I sometimes exceed max listed loads, but I do work up to them.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2024 12:12 PM
Ko ko, you can be sure that all published data has been approved by the legal team. That is such a given that the common complaint among the handloading community is that everything listed is mild as hell and competent handloaders use more than listed routinely. But nobody is telling the casual newbe to "use what ya got" and experiment. It is not like adding a little more hot sauce to your Chili!
Until you get to the point where you know what you are doing, they all say stick to published data and that's wise advice-exceed with caution! But they do NOT say, if you don't have any H4831, why don't you try some H110 instead?
I'm just saying....
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 25, 2024 03:19 PM
Leonard reloading manuals is a tool i use them all time my shit is safe. none of my loads over max. and thing with bigger cases like a 22-250 they not that sensitive to primer change. Bullets I only use one weight 52 gr., brand to brand don't matter as far as pressure goes, it just don't. Cases like 223,17 rem, 222 them you have to use little caution with when close to max. and I don't load for handguns have no use for them .
quote:
But nobody is telling the casual newbe to "use what ya got" and experiment.
You can try other powders Leonard but you still need to use the manual. I have a pretty good idea of what powders to try or use just need to know what cartridge I'm gonna load for.
[ August 25, 2024, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2024 03:54 PM
Tim, it's the clueless that does not take these things seriously. You suggested that a man could casually use or substitute different components. That's not the message to be sending to unknowledgeable people. Am I getting through to you on this? Experimenting and substituting is reserved to experienced handloaders, and you should KNOW when advice is potentially dangerous!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 25, 2024 04:03 PM
you can use anything you like long as you follow the reloading manual and it has a load listed for what powder you want to use. you compare burn rates from a manual and then select the powders that off what you looking for then you go by loads recommended in the manual.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 25, 2024 04:17 PM
For the last time: I'm not worried about what you do and how safe it is.
I am solely focused on substituting canister powders without having solid knowledge about application and burning rate for the inexperienced reloader.
Some of these guys just don't take it a serious as it needs to be.
Yes, now you say check it out and compare but as I read your advice, it seemed to suggest that a reloader can change components and charge weights and kinda just play around with a load.
I think it's far more responsible to tell beginners to follow load data religiously, do not vary from what is published. Then, if he changes anything, it's on him and not because of some half baked advice he got on the Internet!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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