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Author
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Topic: BT/HP vs. NBT's?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 01, 2007 11:26 AM
Which do you think will do the best as far as accuracy and terminal performance, both in terms of killing and minimizing pelt damage? I've decided to look for a more accurate round in my .22-250 and have ready acces to both of these in 55 grainers. I'm leaning toward the Nosler ballistic tips.
Also, what's been the performance of 3-inch #4 buckshot rounds compared to T shot? I'm buying a buttload of that, too, before prices go up in September again..
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 01, 2007 01:21 PM
complicated question, Lance. The point configuration does not seem to have a terminal effect as much as other factors such as jacket thickness, rifling twist, bullet weight in relation to bore size, and velocity, to name a few. I have seen spitzers cause damage and hollowpoints cause damage. I have seen bullets that are very destructive at two hundred yards, that pass through without damage, well inside of one hundred yards. And, I have seen the reverse.
Accuracy? That is tough, in a hunting bullet, but as a general rule, HPs should have the edge, overall? Especially since you are talking a ballistic Tip. I find VMax bullets to be a little more accurate than Ballistic Tips, but they both have good features. If you pick a good bullet weight.
I will tell you that I do not care for boat tail bullets, as a general rule, in a hunting application, but they do improve your odds of making the shot with a slightly better ballistic coefficient. For big game, I do not like a boat tail bullet, despite the advantage. Personal opinion.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted August 01, 2007 01:45 PM
Back when I sold coyotes I had setteled on Nos HPBT match. Of course that was before poly tiped bullets. They killed well and were super accurate in my guns. Pelt damage was good as any. If your'e worried about pelt damage then bullet placement is far more important than bullet type.
I've given 3.5 inch #4 buck a pretty good wringing the last few years and am done with it. Too big of holes in the pattern. Too many coyotes runnin off with one or two pellets in them. 3 inch copper plated bb's for me.
I wish factory 3.5 inch cop plated bb's were available.
T-steel- no thank you.
[ August 01, 2007, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted August 01, 2007 02:02 PM
Ditto on the 3" copper plated lead BB.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 01, 2007 02:13 PM
I have used the federal 2 oz. copper plated BBs, they don't have as good a range as #4 buck, and of course, I don't care about holes in southwestern coyotes, I'm not hunting fur.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted August 01, 2007 04:09 PM
No doubt #4 buck will work & often work well on coyotes. Where #4 let me down was on a bobcat crouched facing me at just over 40 yards. The target was a little bigger than a softball and the hole in the pattern a little bigger still. Hasn't happened since!!!
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted August 01, 2007 04:17 PM
LB I wasn't talking about holes in the fur. Holes in the pattern. Too many times a dog will take a pellet or two in the leg, edge of body somewhere and run off. I like the more dense pattern of the bb's. The ten yards more range for the #4 buck is misleading as the pattern is to open. I am talking about 45yd - 50yd shots which is about what I feel is max.
Last couple of years during contests had coyotes run off wounded and ended up second by one or two. Each time swore off #4 buck.
My testing consisted of a few abandoned refrigerators and clothes dryers, cardboard box or two. Not to technical. Maybe I need to learn something about chokes. I am sure it couldn't be operator error.
3 inch cop plated bb's is the shinizel for bobcats. Just don't shoot them inside 30 yds or so with full choke.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted August 01, 2007 04:21 PM
What kind of range are you talking about? Out to 300 yards 50 gr. bergers work extremely well. After that take the 55 grain Noslers.
Bullet placement is a big factor.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 01, 2007 05:43 PM
I think you are right, Mercer. Testing with a few different chokes might eliminate those holes in your pattern? I do think #4Buck smacks them a lot harder, all things being equal? But, obviously, holes in your pattern are a bad thing.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted August 01, 2007 07:01 PM
Lance,
Once you determine your most accurate powder and charge weight,compare both the V Max and Ballistic tips at 300 yards by punching paper,that is the only sure way to determine accuracy and trajectory.It's been my experience with these bullets along with Bergers 55 grain MEF in my .22-250,the Berger is the most accurate and less damaging to fur.However,since the Berger and V Max are flat based bullets,they don't shoot nearly as flat at 300 yards as the Nosler Ballistic tips with it's boat tail.
The V Max seems to be a bit more destructive while the NBT with it's solid base,would generally produce a small hole in,small hole out,if bone was'nt struck.Last two seasons I've been using the 55 grain Ballistic tips in my .22-243 with great performance.Going with 50 grain bullets with the .22-250 would give you a bit more trajectory for 300 yard shooting.
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted August 01, 2007 07:03 PM
I've got a great reload using the 50 gr. Nosler BT's that I have been using for a few years. It's prairie dog accurate and does well on coyotes. Sometimes they exit a coyote and some times they don't. Seems like the longer the shot, the less damage for sure and on occasion on broadside short range coyotes, they leave an ugly hole. Shot one bobcat with them a few years back, and the exit hole was ugly, the shot was broadside about 40 yards.
The same load simply explodes prairie dogs at any range.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 01, 2007 10:02 PM
Lance,
Unless you are shooting 300+ yards, or your rifle just loves them, you won't see any benefit to boattails. The only other plus, is in reloading. If you have big fingers, they are easier to load into the case with out screwing up the necks.
If it is T-Steel that you are looking at, keep your shots inside of 10 yards, or take a kids BB gun, the results would be the same.
I use #4 lead buck in my 10 Ga. I'd use copper plated lead BB's if I could find them. I still have some pre-loaded Copper plated lead BB's in 12 GA. I talked an aerial gunner out of a couple of boxes a few years ago. I've got enough left for one good day of hunting. So I've been saving them back until I can find another charitable Government gunner.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 02, 2007 05:09 AM
Thanks for the input so far. My shots typically range anywhere from 35 yards out to 200, rarely going over that. And they're way too proud of that T shot for me to use it on $10 coyotes anyway. Thanks, Tim, for the clarification on BT's. I was curious about Leonard's earlier statement to that effect.
I'd like the rifle rounds to be fur friendly, but my primary concern is anchoring power and accuracy out to 300 in case I need it. May be asking too much from s single bullet. I had a bad experience years ago with VMaxs, but it was a matter of the bullet only being a 40 grn'er. The first coyote I took this past year was with a 55 grainer VM at about a hundred yards from my .223 and it performed well - entrance, no exit, just off the shoulder. Probably go with them or NBT, whichever I can find.
Thanks to all again.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted August 02, 2007 09:53 AM
Hey Lance, are you buying factory rifle loads or rolling your own??? If you said, I missed it and I'm sorry. I don't roll my own anymore, for the number of rounds I shoot (or lack thereof) and the time it takes, I buy off the shelf.
I like lots of penetration for when a coyote doesn't offer an ideal angle or i'm a little off (margin for error) or on followup shots when the stuff hits the fan. Penetration, IMHO, kills because the bullet reaches the vital in bad conditions.
That being said, I've really liked the PSP's for my 22-250. However, long range they just weren't as accurate as some other bullet designs, and I found myself taking longer shots the last couple of years, not so much on called coyotes, but coyotes I saw spotting/stalking or while walking to my stand and they saw me and wouldn't come to the call.
So last year I started testing Federals loading of the seirra 55gr gameking BTHP (boat tail hollow point). It's similar to the seira BTHP match in looks, just thicker jacketing. On broadside coyotes from my 22" 22-250, BTHP gameking through the boiler room, the exit was nickle sized or just a little bigger on coyotes I've shot at 100-350 yards. I haven't shot any broadside coyotes under 100 with that load. On facing coyotes, closest being 75 yards, there was never an exit, with one exception, a 10lb sickly runt coyote at 125 yards that was sitting and the bullet went in the chest and exited the spine a few inches under/behind the shoulders, 3-4" exit hole, but there wasn't much to him, I've seen fox bigger... If he had been standing it wouldn't have done that, but I couldn't get the bugger to do anything that sit and stare at me... mangy runt... Anyway, all entrances on all coyotes were .22 sized.
In summary the accuracy of the gameking BTHP in my Savage model 11 was better than the psp's I've used especially at 200+ ranges and pelt damage very similar to the PSP's (mostly cheapy 55gr remington) I've used in that 22-250.
That said, if Federal or someone loaded the 52 grain Match BTHP seira or Hornady bullet in the 22-250, I'd like to give that a try. It won't penetrate like the thicker jacketed gamekings and psps out there, but it's not supposed to splash like light weight frangible bullets at very close ranges. And most of the time the bullet isn't supposed to exit, meaning more bang flops instead of spinners or 50 yard runners.
Federal loads the seira 52 gr match bthp in their 220 swift offering, but not in 22-250. Now sure why, but oh well. They load the 55gr gameking bthp, which penetrates, and from my experience works very very well.
Not sure this helps or not. Been awhile since I responded to one of your threads. Hope things are going good. Looking forward to some of your articles this winter. And getting ready to start coon calling this November when season opens here. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Oh, and on the #4 buck, to get the pattern tight enough for a facing shot at 40-45 yards, I had to go to a .665 turkey choke. The holes were really bad otherwise, but then with it that tight on closer targets I didn't have much of a pattern. Same with the dead coyote load. At 45 yards with the mod choke I had 6 DC pellets in a 12" circle, might get half those in a facing coyote, maybe 1 in the vitals if I was extremely lucky. Through the .665 turkey choke it put 23 pellets in a 12" circle at 45 yards, putting half of those in a facing coyote would likely have a couple or more in the vitals every time, but there again, closer range targets, not much of a pattern, might as well have a rifle?
I don't shoot many coyotes with the shotgun, so after patterning/playing a box of 10 should last me a year. So I might try a .690 choke with the dead coyote load and see if that is a "sweet spot" giving me a usuable pattern up close and tight enough for a 40-45 yard facing shot. But I imagine I'll end up getting the B or BB hevishot or even #2 hevi in probably a .690-.700 choke, more pellets, and even the #2 hevi should have enough umph to kill a coyote at 45 yards.
I have some #2 hevi on hand, and have patterned it on paper, skunks, coon, badger, coyote, etc and it has worked excellent out my .710 mod choke. A little to open of a pattern after 40 yards, but a .700 extended choke would get it to 45 yard if that was my goal.
But then again, I'm not sure what my goal is with my shotgun. I keep flipping between trying to push it out beyond 50 (hense the dead coyote purchase) and then switch back to best pattern between 20-35 yards and usuable to 40 or 45 in a pinch (followups). Maybe I just need an over/under with .710mod/.665xfull chokes?
Anyway, I'm babbling, have a good one Lance!
later,
scruffy
[ August 02, 2007, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted August 02, 2007 06:11 PM
I'll take the 52 gr.H.P. or 52 gr A-Max every time. Might get a bigger hole from them once in awhile with a bad hit, but not as often as what i used to get when useing the B.T.
I don't use a shotgun on coyotes but a friend of mine does and he puts a load of copper BB'S in the chamber and #4 Buck-shot in the magizine for back-up.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5062 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted August 02, 2007 06:43 PM
scruffy,
I buy mine off the rack. These guys will rip[ me for not handloading, but I just woudn't have time to work up a load. Can't get everything in a day as it is now.
I've been using the Sierra Gameking 55 grn BTHP's for some time. and yes,m they can leave a good hole if you catch bone. Having said that, I've shot them as close as 16 yards and not had an exit. Pehnomenal. but, they just don't have the accuracy that I think my gun is capable of. Maybe it's me. (Seriously, maybe it is.) I see that federal has the same bullet and it's in the running for me.
Anyone? What's the spec differences between #4 shot from a 3-inch magnum turkey load and bb's. Anyone know where a fella can even find copper plated BB's?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 02, 2007 07:12 PM
A number of comments about 52 bt match bullets from Hornady ad Sierra. For what it is worth, I have always had much better success using both Sierra and Hornady 53 grain flat base HPs. Accuracy and terminal performance. Makes a better predator bullet. Do not forget about that Speer 52 HP. That's a damned fine bullet for all predators.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted August 02, 2007 07:42 PM
Lance - did you get my email with the link to the BB's
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted August 03, 2007 07:23 AM
Lance, Federal still loads 3" copper BB, and the scheels in my area carries it.
As far as the spec difference between 3" BB and 3" #4 turkey you could look that up on federals website, comparing the two loads side by side. I've used #4 bird shot on a coyote before, and my kill was 40 yards, took two shots. The first shot sent him into the death spin and the second dropped him. He had a broken leg, possibly from the front shot that put him into the spin, the second shot DRT'd him.
After skinning him we inspected the carcass carefully and tried to find what #4 bird pellet killed him, and to be honest, I have no idea why that coyote died. I didn't see any penetration into the skull or spine to cause a DRT. Oddest thing. Maybe heart attack? It was an old coyote that came up to whoop my dog one night around 2am. He didn't figure my 12 gauge was next to the back door, unfortunately #4 bird was the most potent thing I had at the time....... But in the end, the coyote died, I guess?
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted August 03, 2007 04:00 PM
Sportsmans Warehouse carries copper plated lead BB in 3" 12 gauge.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted August 04, 2007 12:54 AM
Does anyone sell them in 10 Ga.?
What about just the BB's for reloading?
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted August 04, 2007 09:55 AM
"Does anyone sell them in 10 Ga.?"
10 gauge factory ammo suitable for coyotes is hard to come by. Midway currently has lead BB though. http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=197033&t=11082005
"What about just the BB's for reloading?"
I reload for my SP-10. I buy my stuff online from Ballistic Products. I sure don't save money by doing so but I don't really care. I do it for performance, and I just enjoy reloading.
I have tried a few recipes in #BB Hevy Shot, #F Buck lead, and #4 Buck lead. And I've done a LOT of patterning this summer using different chokes and loads. I get the best patterns with the HS BB and XFull choke. I wish it was available in #T shot, but currently it is not available between BB and OO.
[ August 04, 2007, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Joel Hughes ]
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