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Author
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Topic: "Call shy" coyotes
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 20, 2010 04:22 PM
quote:
Can you please explain this one? Are you the Coyote Whisperer or something?
LOL.. No! Pick out a couple of youre WT distress sounds and give them a good listening too and then you tell me what you hear...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted December 20, 2010 06:10 PM
Alright TA, I listened to about 90 of my distress WT sounds and there's nothing magical about them. Give me a specific sound that the voices in your head say has different "sounds" to it and I'll check that one out. If you meant to imply that the sounds have various harmonics and cadence, then fine, I agree with you. But then again....all sounds have various harmonics and cadence. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2010 06:27 PM
Just for purpose of argument, the highest sound any of the newest ecallers produce is way, way less than a coyote can hear!
Loudspeaker horns generally reproduce less than 1/3 of a coyote's hearing frequency range. The WT's and CS24 both use TOA speakers only capable of approximately 12.5Mhz and a coyote can supposedly hear 40Mhz!
So... a hand or voice call that does produce those higher(12.5Mhz and above)frequencies would likely sound more natural to a coyote... just my opinion. Getting those sounds out would mean more stands made closer together to cover a given area. I also believe that calling more along the volume levels of a prey animal would be more natural sounding to a coyote but again would require more stands made closer which isn't always possible or time acceptable. Everything would then become a tradeoff.
The technology is available to reproduce higher frequencies but a tweeter would have to be added to most setups and that would open a whole new can of worms in high frequency noise and sound recording quality. Not sure if it can be justified but I'm sure in time it will be done. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I think picking the right stand and being there at the right time of day is more important. Both experience and luck often play a part in those decisions. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Nikonut
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2010 07:36 PM
Scott, I don't agree with some of your conclusions, but I don't have the time to get into it right now as I in the frozen north and there are woofs about. Seen them and heard them. I will be coming home Christmas Eve, so maybe after that, I can pose an argument, or two.
As far as getting together, I'm all for it. I have a date in February sometime, one of the border states, can't be more specific right now. But if January works for Dave and Vic, count me in.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted December 20, 2010 08:27 PM
Leonard: "Scott, I don't agree with some of your conclusions,..."
Excellent!
Look forward to reading your comments. Please specify night or day calling so I can put your thoughts into proper perspective. Thanks!
Later!
~SH~
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted December 20, 2010 10:38 PM
I just want to say I am really glad that Tim is back to discussing coyotes and not business.
Scott, I disagree with your conclusions concerning your rankings of an e-caller. Here are some things to consider as well. You have ecallers that use vocalizations or distress sounds made by real live animals. Where would these sounds fall in your ranking system? Would a recording of a Scott Huber voice howl, be better than Scott Huber blowing on a open reed howler in person?
Are you stating that the "white noise" that is present on an ecaller is causing coyotes to become call shy, rather than the sounds that are playing in an improper set-up, or a missed coyote? To me that is the strongest part of your arguement. I say that not knowing much about how "clear" a sound is out of a quality speaker, or how recordings are cleaned up prior to being sold. Your arguement would be furthered even more by the ADC crowd who favored WT's back in the day, because of the quality of their sound library and the quality of their recordings.
I think it is the sheer number of callers that pressure coyotes on a weekly basis that cause "call shy" coyotes. I wouldn't classify them as call shy though, more "human shy".
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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SD Howler
taught Huber everything he knows, but not everything HE knows!
Member # 3669
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posted December 21, 2010 05:45 AM
With some testing to the human ear that we did in the past, the voice howls carried to a further distance than the howls from open reed calls with amplifiers.
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Steve
Predator Calling
rattler51@pie.midco.net
Posts: 51 | From: SD | Registered: Sep 2010
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albert
Knows what it's all about
Member # 98
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posted December 21, 2010 06:17 AM
I would say part of the problem with "call shy" coyotes is we use the sounds that we think sound right to our own ears. Personally I know my ears aren't the best which has been confirmed by the last hearing test I had.
As to what a coyote can hear or not ear I'm not sure. I feel that we tend to over state the ability's of animals versus humans. We as humans don't hear a lot of little sounds when in our human enviroment. We have a lot of white noise, as i type this i am aware of a constant hum from the fan on the computer this certainly would cover up the sound of a mouse scurrying across the floor of this house. Yet I've been out in the woods in a hunting shack and have had no trouble hearing a mouse scurring across the floor there. I do not find it amazing that a coyote can hear a mouse under a couple feet of snow.
What a coyote hears and what it pays attention to could be two different things, i'm not sure. As Scott likes to remind us the coyotes know but they ain't talking.
I know that it is possible to go to an area and have poor success and then return a month later and do quite well doing virtually the same thing? I feel that there are more enviromental factors at play than I pay attetion to.
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for what it's worth, eh!
Posts: 195 | From: Parkland, saskatchewan, canada | Registered: Feb 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 21, 2010 07:04 AM
January would likely work for me. Feb. too, for that matter. My only concern with N. Nevada, a few weeks out, is the snow depth and access. We might need to rethink that a little bit, if the snow keeps coming between now and then.
As far as white noise with e-callers, I'm thinking you have to separate the conversation into the kind of white noise that is actually audible to human ears and the kind that is not (which is what I think Scott is talking about). And then separate it further into recordings vs. play back systems. I'd have to think that not all callers and not all recorded sounds are created equal. I remember some years ago when one call maker came out with a new model that was basically an MP3 player. People were bitching up a storm about the supposed white noise it made during pauses. We've all heard recorded sounds with distortion, background noise, echo etc. There is a continuum, from "clean" to "dirty", with both recordings and play back systems, which will result in a wide range of this white noise (both the audible to human ears kind and the inaudible to human kind that I think Scott refers to).
I've recorded and field tested a lot of e-caller sounds. Some that I have recorded are among the most prolific and successful in the Foxpro library. Sounds that I have recorded, have called in many tens of thousands of animals. In the course of my lifetime shooting jack rabbits and the last ten years or so recording distress sounds, I have heard hundreds of live rabbits screaming. I have recorded many dozens of them. I've field tested a few dozen of these recordings. I may be full of myself, but I "think" I have a better feel than most, for what a "good" recorded rabbit distress should sound like. And by good, I mean productive, a sound that brings in predators.
I say all that, to get to this... What I find interesting about this "white noise" discussion, is that some of the sounds that have been the most productive for me in recent years, are some of the most "dirty". Now, I'm not talking "white noise" or "hiss" of any type. Not that I can hear anyway - I can't hear any of that with any of the sounds I've used since I moved on from JS tape decks a long time ago. But rather, these recordings have a lot of background noise in them. Wind noise, brushing the mic against clothing, bumping it into the animal creating odd noises, some mild distortion from levels being too high in spots, even a breif note of muffled human voice in one spot. Recordings far too "dirty" for commercial use. Someone buying these sounds would be very unhappy with how obviously "dirty" they are. I chose to try them in the field based solely on what I call "emotion" though. Which is how I judge the potential of a distress sound. There are certain cadences, rhythms, tones, whatever that catch my ear and appeal to me based on what I've seen work in the field, but the main ingredient I listen for, is "emotion". So, a few years ago, I took the best emotional sequences I'd recorded from about a dozen different jack rabbits and put them all into a single three minute loop. Aside from the pure emotion, the variety of different rabbits in the loop provides for a variety of cadences and voice tones as it goes, which I sometimes feel might be thought of as multiple possible "triggers", which occasionally a coyote gets "triggered" by (maybe?). This "dirty" but highly "emotional" sound clip I've been using the last few years has been very productive for me. Yet, like I say, the recordings are so contaminated with background noise and artifacts, that no call manufacturer would ever even think about offering them.
So, I find this idea that there is a hidden background noise that coyotes are repelled by, interesting. I don't have nearly the technical knowledge to refute or dispute whether it exists or not. I'm sure it COULD exist, and in varying degrees of intensity. But, I suspect that it's something which COULD be proven, or disproven, one way or the other, without need for opinion, with the right knowledge and equipment. The existence of it, I mean - not whether it has any particular effect on coyotes or not.
But then too, again, the proving or disproving of the existence of this "noise", would have to be taken on a case by case basis, caller to caller, sound to sound. I think?
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted December 21, 2010 07:53 AM
I know my favorite WT sound that I use 95% of the time when I use it has some back ground noise of some sort in it. If im sitting in the right spot or close enough you can hear it. Im not talking even full volume. Put your head in front of the speaker on the lowest volume and listen close. Push the button and you can tell with most sounds (that have a pause before the sound starts) when its playing even though no "sound" has started yet. Im sure its much more pronounced especially to a coyote at a higher volume. I agree that there are other sounds associated with ecallers that may cue a coyote into a setup but whether or not that is what the coyote picks out when it becomes "call shy" is another thing. What are coyotes that are "call shy" to hand calls picking out?? We have all seen coyotes run from hand calls as well. Is there associated underlying sounds with hand calls as well that they can pick out? The vibration of the reed? who knows
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted December 21, 2010 09:55 AM
I suspect that what Wiley is getting at is what is NOT present in the sound reproduction versus the content of a sound from a living being or even a "live" performance by blown call.
Dave A - what is the published frequency response of your recording equipment?
What about the reproduction equipment, aka as e-callers?
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 21, 2010 10:21 AM
What causes call shy coyotes?
I'm reading this and thinking back to my JS days and the "dirty" sounds those cassettes had. Still called alot of critters when the local hand callers said they wouldn't work.
I'm also thinking about letting the tape run out in what 30 minutes? In that time the only movement made was to maybe turn the volume up or down. I knew how long I was gonna be there and made sure my stand was comfortable and I could take advantage of any shot oppurtunity. the caller was only 50 feet away from me so I had to be still. I had to stay with one sound and it was too heavy to just pick up and carry the thing all over hill and dale so I made wiser choices to stand selection.
I think the remote has made more coyotes "call shy" than anything else. It's made it look easy and made us lazy, letting the important things slip past new callers.
Of course now that everyone with a gun is a coyote hunter doesn't help either.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 21, 2010 10:26 AM
Although I have no doubt that there is "white noise" coming from the speaker of even the very best E callers, I doubt that this "noise" has much negative effect on most coyotes.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
Member # 3556
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posted December 21, 2010 11:16 AM
The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller.
Posts: 780 | From: Montana | Registered: Jan 2010
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted December 21, 2010 12:05 PM
"The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller."
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I agree! Murry Burnham once told me "If we could kill every coyote we call, then there would be no call shy coyotes".
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted December 21, 2010 03:08 PM
I think something Gerry Blair has said many times applies here: "They all hear, they all react, but they don't all respond". (May not be exact quote but it is close for sure).
Another factor that I believe applies is it is all about timing. The last few weeks I have been making the same exact stand at various times of day, and killed coyotes on the second or third go around, at the same place, using the same sounds as volume.
Nikonut: That is why I have stated several times that the Prairie Blaster is the best sounding ecaller available today. High quality horn in one end, high quality cone in the opposite end, with a high range tweeter in each end of the carry handle. It has a more powerful stereo amplifier than other callers, and it really makes the 24bit sounds do their best. Like Rich says, the coyotes may not care as much as we do, so it is all about preference. I have been having a lot of luck with stereo sounds I make on Goldwave and some are available from Foxpro that are excellent.
Good quality hand/mouth calls in an experienced hunter/caller's possession will continue to work due to the emotion you can put into your calling. If you are too out of shape or have some physical limitations that prohibit you really getting after it with a hand/mouth call, it might not be the best idea for ya.
Good hunting at ya!
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted December 21, 2010 03:45 PM
quote:
Nikonut: That is why I have stated several times that the Prairie Blaster is the best sounding ecaller available today. High quality horn in one end, high quality cone in the opposite end, with a high range tweeter in each end of the carry handle.
Al, I've never heard a Prairie Blaster but I would agree that is a step in the right direction and probably one of the best out there right now. Even with dual tweeters the frequency range is still limited and more tuned to human hearing.(under 20,000hz?)I'm not sure what the planar speakers on the Gametracks run? Better than the TOA horns and possibly less than the Blaster's tweeters would be my guess.
I hope that someone will develop a more compact unit with higher fidelity and I think it is just a matter of time and demand. The sound recording process will need to become better as well.
I think DAA has put it pretty well that inflection has lots to do with a successful recorded sound... even with noise included. Noise is part of the natural world and I would believe any predator has the ability to key on the frequency range and inflection of a prey animal in distress.
Call shy coyotes are not only a product of electronic calling and over calling but something that naturally occurs due to everyday environmental pressures and also learned behaviors and pecking orders. Just as in people, there are some coyotes that will always hang back and be less aggressive to a call. There are way too many variables to be able to point to one cause and say that is the only factor.
That's my opinion... I sure am enjoying reading everyone else's, too! Great discussion!!!
Nikonut
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 21, 2010 07:09 PM
Yes, we need to switch to studio quality sounds. That is sure to solve the call shy problem.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted December 21, 2010 09:59 PM
That's funny Leonard but it won't work. I can see this now, Lady Gaga dancing around and doing coyote calls in the studio... LOL
Well, maybe it will if we as hunters begin using the basics to begin with... that's the premise.
Studio quality sound could be just as important as a super accurate rifle... wait, that's not necessary either! Lots of coyotes fell to those old burned out barrel rifles of yesteryear, hand calls, voice calls, no camo and no antistinkem. All the internet hunting in the world won't teach you what an hour out in the field will.
Maybe setup and understanding really is the answer. It's called skill and determination. If you have call shy coyotes you need to up your game, bottom line!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 21, 2010 10:36 PM
quote:
All the internet hunting in the world won't teach you what an hour out in the field will.
Exactly! Time needs to be spent out in the field and calling to coyotes, they are the ones that are going to teach you something. I know a few guys when they come across a call shy coyote they just give up in a short time and move on rather than spend a little extra time on stand calling to the difficult coyotes..
If a difficult coyote is still sticking around after some time of calling, it may still be possable to call that coyote in, if it was'nt interested it would'nt of stuck around to begin with... As for the runners its hard to say why they took off to begin with, they may have heard or seen you come into the area or perhaps they are out of their terr.. For thses I would just watch what direction they go and just wait a spell and move around on them and try calling again, you maybe surprised on the out come..
Edit to add.
If you have a difficult coyote and the sounds you have on a E-caller or hand call are not working then just reverse it if you have both tools at hand.. In other words if you are howling to a difficult coyote with a hand howler switch to howls on the E-call or viseversa. Give it the impresson there is another coyote around...
[ December 21, 2010, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted December 22, 2010 11:34 AM
Back when I first started calling red fox here at home I found that some rabbit distress calls where to over powering, too loud, too deep in sound and it scared the fox more than anything. Then one day while I was at the sporting goods store I picked up a Burham bro.s call which had a higher pitch to it compared to other calls I've tried. I gave this call a good try and found that the sound produced by this call got the fox really excited and they came into my stands more often. Later on I needed to have the reed replaced and got some double JC reeds by mistake from Burham bro.s but I tried them anyway.. I found that the pitch was just as high as the single reeds I used but a little more raspy and this double reed produced more fox than the call with the single reed..
The call made the right sound and had the right pitch and tone that the fox wanted to hear.
A few years back I got back into locateing my coyotes before going into a area to call them .. At home while I was locateing with hand howlers ( did'nt have the WT yet) I found that some of my coyotes would'nt just answer to any ol howler. At the time I was useing a horn howler I got from Rich Cronk and I had coyotes answer back in some areas but not others that I new held coyotes. I did'nt know what was up with that so just for the heck of it I tried howling with another howler, this was one I got from Jerry H... I gave a couple of howls with this howler and I had the coyotes answer back in just a minute or two.. That night I worked my way through the areas I knew held coyotes and I would howl with one howler at first and if I did'nt get a reply I would use another. Out of my bag of howlers the two mentioned above and the Scerry howler gave me the best results. Can't say anyone of them is any better than the other its just each one of them had a sound that the coyote liked at the time.
Rich's howler may have been too loud or sounded more like a big old male and may have intimadated some into not answering back and on some stands it was loud enough to get a response from an older coyote..
Gotta call and have to go get some coyotes be back later to finish..LOL
I'm back! We picked up two more coyotes for the day..
Anyway a friend told me once that he believes some coyotes fear other coyotes. I believe coyotes fear some calls or sounds used and has to do with each coyotes security level..
YOY coyotes have little exsperiance to some sounds and can't tell the difference so they are more egar to respond to calling so thats why so and so hand call works so good for him and so and so E-caller works so well..
Now with the older coyotes some can tell the difference or they are not hearing what they like to trigger them into a response.
This is why I believe a E-caller with good sounds is a better tool, more there to work with..I will also addmit that hand calls come in pretty handy at times when something else is needed.. For the guys that don't use E-callers I suggest that they carry more than one howler and rabbit calls along on stand and don't always pick out the calls that sound good to youre ear, its what the coyote hears that matters...
A dog whistle was also brought up. I happen to have one and it was used when I did my sound loudness tests. You can use all the settings on it and not hear some with the human ear but a sound meter will pick-up all of it. It can also be recorded and put into Gold wave and then compared to other distress sounds and some sounds will reach the bottom and top end of a dog whistle...
[ December 22, 2010, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted December 23, 2010 06:04 AM
So in a nutshell Tim your learned not all coyotes are the same or triggered by the same sounds at the same time.
Many things can bring coyotes in, one needs to experiment and find what works best in that area at that time. I have been have success in areas I have known to be called in the past by using not only my e caller but also a mouth call at the same time, in some of these areas I get faster response times than just one or the other I liken it to stero sound and giving more depth, a change those coyotes in that area not accustom to from others. Give them something out of the norm is what I try and do in areas I have known to be called alot.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted December 23, 2010 07:01 AM
Nikonut said:
"The technology is available to reproduce higher frequencies but a tweeter would have to be added to most setups and that would open a whole new can of worms in high frequency noise and sound recording quality. Not sure if it can be justified but I'm sure in time it will be done"
The original Tube WT and The "backpack" model both had tweeters.
And I also believe both these were far better units than those today....sound wise.
When you play them side by side, even us humans with our poor hearing can tell the difference.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted December 23, 2010 08:28 AM
Steve,
The 4 speaker Prairie Blaster sounds better to my ears than the old tube or backpack WT models. That's playing the same WT sounds on both units too. Still, most people nowadays simply don't want to lug around 9 to 13 pounds worth of speakers, except maybe snowgeese and crow guys in the back of a ATV or pickup.
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted December 24, 2010 08:05 AM
Tom64: "What causes call shy coyotes"
As hard as it is to prevent on these forums, I don't want to get side tracked to the topic of "what causes call shy coyotes". What I'm trying to get at here is which calling "tools" will create more call shy coyotes ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL.
Once again, for the sake of discussion, let's assume we are doing everything right. We are not being seen or heard entering the calling stand. We are not trying to call coyotes to a source of danger. We are calling from within a coyote's comfort zone. We are not being seen while on the stand. We parked our vehicle out of site. We are calling against the wind. We are calling to coyotes that have been called by others that made the mistakes that we are not making. We are only comparing the sounds we have available to us. The rest of the playing field is level.
Comprende'?
To the coyote ear, based on my observations, I know that SOME OF THEM (not all) can differentiate live prey sounds from reproduced prey sounds. No doubt the better the sound reproduction, the more difficult it will be to differentiate between what is real and what is reproduced for the highest percentage of coyotes.
I don't know if it's "white noise" or something else but I know for a fact there's a difference to some coyotes between live and reproduced sounds.
What I'm trying to get at here, is what will fool the highest percentage of coyotes out there in the most situations.
Ursus21: "The more I read on this and think about it...I'm pretty sure coyotes become call-shy more due to the nut behind the butt, than the sound coming out of the caller."
There's no doubt about that Ursus. What I am after here is what sounds will fool the highest percentage of coyotes that have been burned from the nut behind the butt. Good quote BTW!
To the topic,
In any given coyote calling contest, assuming everyone is being honest (big assumption), only a handful of the very best teams are killing 80% of the coyotes they see that they have access to. My point, even under the best situations with the most experienced callers, there will be coyotes that learn from a negative experience associated with certain sounds. Let's also assume that most contest callers are on the top half of the scale as far as abilities in comparison to the average guy out there trying to call coyotes. With that said, most contests end up killing about 25% to 30% of the coyotes that are seen. That's just for that one contest. Now enter in all the guys blowing a call that really don't know what they're doing on a more regular basis and consider how many times these same coyotes get screwed with. Leonard's account of the rancher setting the Fox Pro on the hood of his truck is not as rare as we would like to believe. I know guys that do the same thing at night. Also keep in mind all the coyotes we don't see. With that in mind, it's probably safe to say that only 10% of the coyotes that are called in are actually killed.
Heck, just watch how many coyotes are missed by the "so called" experts on TV. Is it any wonder why every year there is a higher percentage of coyotes that have obviously been messed with?
Those who disagree with this observation are probably not calling in areas of moderate coyote populations that are being heavily called by others. Some places have so many coyotes that based on the law of averages there will always be a certain number of coyotes that respond creating an illusion of how many coyotes are responding in contrast to the coyotes that are actually out there that are not responding. You don't know what you don't see. That's prolly why you have so many coyote calling rock stars in areas from Southern Kansas south to Mexico.
The number of coyote calling experts is directly proportionate to the coyote population in the particular area they are hunting.
ADC men in many states will all tell you that they have really had to change up their calling strategies to kill more problem coyotes. A lot are resorting to more long range shooting, decoy dogs, spot and stalk, etc. due to the number of coyotes out there that have heard everything.
If coyotes could not differentiate between the actual sounds and recorded sounds, we would still be able to call most of these coyotes in with common strategies. Someone mentioned that ADC programs have went to electronic calls due to the sound library available and that's true which again makes my point. If "call shy" coyotes that have been subjected to rabbit recordings couldn't differentiate between live rabbits and recordings, we wouldn't need a big sound library would we?
I'll give you two observations to consider and you can tell me how I am mis-reading this. I mentioned this example before so I apologize for my redundancy but this observation is really important to this particular discussion.
I had a coyote complaint where a coyote came into an urban area, went into a lambing shed, and killed and consumed a pregnant goat. I knew exactly what killed this goat because I had coyote tracks coming and going in the mud. Incidentally, the coyote tracks leaving were sunk into the mud further than the coyote tracks that came on the same trail. If I was a betting man, I would bet this coyote was mangy which would explain it's bold behavior. Based on the tracks, it didn't take long to establish a direction of approach.
Shortly after that, I called the area where I figured the coyotes were coming from. My vehicle was out of sight and on a commonly traveled road near a town. Nothing out of the ordinary with the vehicle. The area that I figured the coyotes were staying, was out of sight of the vehicle because it was blocked by gravel hills. Our approach to our stand was out of sight of the area I figured the coyotes were staying. There was no way these coyotes heard or saw our approach. When I reached the stand I voice howled and the coyotes answered me with a long drawn out answer as they have thousands of times before. Still nothing out of the ordinary. Their howling response was blocked by the hills and definitely not a straight line of sound. My next sound was a young female howl out of the WT at full volume. This was followed by a short pause then a couple coyotes started warning barking at us ON A DIRECT LINE OF SOUND. This told me they immediately moved to the top of the hills and were now warning barking at the recorded sound after they had just answered my voice howl.
So you tell me you electonic calling wizards (LOL!), how do you explain that? Hmmm???
These coyotes never saw us, they never heard us, they never smelled us. All the normal "call shy" variables were not part of this equation. This was confirmed with their normal, confident, comfortable response to my voice howl preceding the recorded sound of a female coyote. If there is not a difference, then how do you explain the OBVIOUS, UNDENIABLE difference in reaction? I don't think there is anything I overlooked here so have at it if you disagree.
I am no stranger to "call shy" coyotes. Seen their reactions many times to common calling strategies. I have to admit I was truly blown away by this as was the avid coyote hunting professional that was with me. The WT sounds are as high of quality recordings as you can get. More importantly, we are not talking about prey sounds, we are talking about differentiation of coyote vocalizations. There's nothing more common to a coyote than hearing and responding to other coyotes.
We found out shortly after this incident that a neighbor had been messing with these coyotes on a regular basis with his Fox Pro and sometimes he didn't even take a gun. He just called them in to watch them. So why did they respond so normally to my voice howl and not to the recorded WT howl, which to my ear is one of their best recordings, if coyotes cannot differentiate between the two? Hmmm???
You can disagree with me all you want but you better have an explanation for this ACTUAL OBSERVATION if you disagree.
Here's another observation for you to ponder. In literally hundreds of examples, I have never had a coyote turn tail and run at the sound of a lip squeak if they could hear it. The vast majority will respond in a positive manner. When I think about it, I'm not sure I have ever seen a coyote refuse it if they could hear it. I don't know what coyotes think MY LIP SQUEAK is, but I do know that the vast majority, regardless of shyness for any reason, are attracted to the sound. I may have had some coyotes not show any interest for whatever reason, I can't remember them now, but I know I have never seen a coyote turn tail and run at the sound of a lip squeak. How do you explain that? Do you honestly think that many coyotes would all react the same way if they were listening to a recorded lip squeak? I don't.
Fire away electronic defenders. Hehe!
Keep in mind one other important factor. I have hunted my whole life in the open plains of the Dakota's where we get to observe a lot more coyote reactions than those who call in heavier cover. Those who call in heavy cover only see the coyotes they kill, not the ones who refused what they had to offer.
~SH~
[ December 24, 2010, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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