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Author
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Topic: Do you miss "the good old days??"
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted October 25, 2006 09:29 AM
C'mon Tim, You live in Arizona. How much friggin public land do you need? What percentage is it that you can't get to? We have a small amount land locked on this place also. Too bad. You can't expect anyone to give up private property rights just due to you. You don't shoot windmills. Great. I like you Tim, and believe that you are a good guy and respectful. But would you want someone JB welding the locks to your house and vehicles? C'mon, private is private. I have seen gates and signs shot to hell, Homestead cabins cut up for firewood, cattle shot, and all kinds of travesties, but I sure don't think you did it. Surely you don't allow public access to your backyard? Do you want someone you don't know hanging out in your yard? Think of it like Alaska, if you want in that bad, charter a helicopter. Buy a paraplane. Nothing is impossible. I know there are good hunters out there, but as a whole our public lands here are a mess. Garbage, junk cars, on and on. But beyond that there is tons of public land in Wyoming and all over the west. I hunt alot of it personally. I don't hunt for myself where I guide. Conflict of interest. So I hunt public and find other places. I'm not rich, but I have no problem finding places to hunt. I offer a service, and access. If a certain amount of the hunting public is willing to pay for it then so be it. If they weren't willing and able to pay then the market for it would fail. We offer some hunts for what a rifle and scope costs. If you can't save that much in a year, maybe you need a better job. But I still don't have any effect on the thousands that choose to hunt public land. I have even told a good many guys that didn't want to pay some really good places to hunt public. And the public in the areas that I manage have better deer and antelope due to the spillover from properly managed land. Leonard, the gate deal sucks. Here, there are two kinds of roads. Private and public. Public is posted as such and won't be locked. Private roads here are like private land and it is the hunters responsibility to know where he is and if he has enough gas to be there. If a guy is in a jam, I have no problem with him cutting a gate lock, using a cow camp or anything else. But most of the cut locks here is to get to a deer or antelope.
Edit: By the way Tim, the rancher (my cousin) I was refering to drives a 96 Dodge with over 200,000 miles on it. He has a couple of ranch trucks that are 70 and 80's models also. He did buy a fairly new tractor a few years ago, the one and only. Don't confuse subsidised eastern farmers with western family ranchers.
[ October 25, 2006, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 25, 2006 10:25 AM
You express yourself well, Cal.
To clarify, I was not talking about private roads, strictly BLM, strictly public roads.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
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posted October 25, 2006 04:47 PM
I can think of only one gate imperticular that gives us a problem each and every year. The road is public and it runs thru private property. The sign states private for the next mile. Every darn year the knuckle head rancher locks the gate. There is a heck of a lot of great BLM hunting on the other side of the rancher's land but he closes off all access.
I heard Tyler Higgins has a key for those kind of locks! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 25, 2006 04:52 PM
Danny, you are going to get us into trouble. The fact is that sometimes ranchers with graze leases and hunters that want keep other hunters out of their hunt area will illegally lock gates to state trust land , BLM, and National forest land.
Tyler and I use our 6mm keys on those locks.
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted October 25, 2006 05:08 PM
If somebody drives a newer pickup and has some land does not make them rich. You know and I know that the extra cash helps pay the bills. Not only does that guy have all the same expenses that you have but he also has all the extra expenses of owning that land. I know that leases make it lots harder for the average guy but it seems if you want something real bad you will figure out a way of getting it, either by finding some public ground or saving those extra pennies. I also know that the thing that we love to do most is one of the easier things to find permission for. I guess that makes us lucky for the obsession we chose.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 25, 2006 07:15 PM
quote:
C'mon Tim, You live in Arizona. How much friggin public land do you need?
All of it.
It's public land, I'm a member of the public, why should I be denied access to lands that my ancestors fought for, and my taxes pay to maintain?
Arizona is one of the fastest growing States in the Nation. It is also made up of over 70% public lands. That means that all of the growth is taking place on less than 30% of the land.
People buy up land that adjoins public land, with a traditional access road crossing it, Many of these roads were built years ago and have been maintained ever since with public funding. So all they do is put up a locked gate, and they now have sole access to millions of acres of public land. I don't have a problem with people denying access to private lands, but I feel that before they should be allowed to close off a traditional access point, they should be required to sit down with the State or Federal agents and work out a reasonable alternative route.
Case in point, just to the west of me is the North end of the Mule Mountains. A wonderful place to hunt both Mule and Coues deer. Access used to be a thirty minute drive down a two track. Then someone locked the gate, because the road crossed less than a quarter mile of private land. There was an alternative road available, so State policy prohibited them from fighting it. Unfortunately, the "Alternative" road takes over 3 hours to traverse, you must have four wheel drive, and you will damage your vehicle.
The Valley to the East of me contains over 60 square mile sections of nearly all State Trust lands. With one road passing from North to South. On the south end, several years ago, the rancher moved a section of road about 15 yards. From the public side of the fence, to the private. No one said anything to him, because access hadn't been denied. Now that the old section of road was ripped up and has over grown, he locked the gate on the private land. AZ Fish and Game, have offered to pay to move the road back, but the State Trust board ( Made up of mostly cattle ranchers ) is sticking hard to Clinton's no new road policy, and refuses to allow them to move it back.
On the North end is a county public road that goes to the Historical Surrender site of Geronimo, before joining the road to the South. The rancher there went to the county and asked them to abandon that road. Because there were only a few ranchers who lived on it, and they were willing to maintain the road themselves, the County abandoned it to save on maintenance costs.
Guess what? The first thing they did, was put up a gate and lock it.
They will still let you hunt that public land, provided you pay them a trespass fee and hire an "Approved Guide"
Let's say you have 100 hunters who want to hunt on 100 sections of land. 70 Sections are Public land, 30 sections are on Private. Access has traditionally been open for all to enter, but then a rancher owning 15 sections, locks the gates denying access not only to his land, but 35 sections of public land. Now you still have 100 hunters, but they can only hunt on 50 sections, decimating the herds. Do you really think that it is right for that Rancher to sell Access to the public land? If he doesn't want people hunting on his 15 sections, that is fine, post it and we will gladly stay off, but don't try to sell me access to land that already belongs to me as a US Citizen. That's BS, plain and simple.
You are a good guy Cal, and I have a lot of respect for you. But I can't help but believe that if you were in a similar situation as I am, and depended on access to public lands in order to hunt, then you would have the same or similar opinion. Unfortunately, part of your families livelihood depends on your Cousin selling access to public lands and public owned wildlife. In my mind, that should be illegal in all States.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 25, 2006 07:15 PM
After hunting with Rich H. and Randy S. for five hours and calling in 11 coyotes, i could of sworn we where hunting in the good old days.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted October 25, 2006 08:32 PM
Tim, I moved to Az in early 83. I encountered other callers only twice in those "Good ole days". Dry stands were a rarity, and dry days were unheard of. Set up most anywhere, blow a call and coyotes would come, often in multiples. I didn't appreciate it because that was just the way things were, like shooting a hundred jacks in a day or five hundred prairie dogs in a morning. I really didn't study coyotes back then because it wasn't neccessary. I shot more coyotes with a bow than I did with a gun. Blow a call and they came.
Frankly, I like it better today. We are chasing a different animal now in different habitat. I have to know and understand it in order to consistantly call them in. It can be work, and it is far more rewarding than it was in the "good ole days".
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted October 25, 2006 09:43 PM
Eventually they'll put up gates you can't shoot your way through.
The gate I walked around today, you'd blow your hand off if you tried to shoot the lock.
It is blocking motorized access to the National Forest.
To the original question, unfortunately for me, these are the good ol days. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted November 20, 2006 10:26 AM
I'm adding a set of bolt cutters to my kit and a few old locks and rusty chain links.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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The Outdoor Tripp
Knows what it's all about
Member # 619
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posted December 01, 2006 03:46 PM
Good points on both sides, but sorry guys, I can't appreciate the bitching on either side.
Be glad you live in states where you HAVE public lands.
[ December 01, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: The Outdoor Tripp ]
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The Outdoor Tripp
www.theoutdoortripp.com
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
Posts: 805 | From: Texas | Registered: Mar 2005
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted December 01, 2006 05:19 PM
The public land is very close to being controlled by the greenies and their lawyers.
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted December 05, 2006 08:23 PM
There seems to be a general trend in loosing more of our freedoms as the population increses. China has mandatory and forcible birth control. Seems we're not too far behing with the population growth in this country. The more people there are the more laws and restrictions on you behavior and activities. Thats why I hate liberals....they refuse to curtail immigration, especially illegal immigration. It puts pressure on all our cherished natural resources and freedoms. Ever been to Europe? Almost no public land whatsoever. Everything is owned by somebody. Almost no freedom there......no wonder their governments are close to socialist.
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dsmith7136
Knows what it's all about
Member # 732
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posted December 07, 2006 12:27 AM
I'm gonna jump into this one with both feet, Fellas.
I agree that a landowner has the right to do what he likes with his land, but the WILDLIFE on his land does NOT belong to him, nor does the right to "sell" it.
They are NOT "his" deer (or elk, or ducks, or pheasants, or whatever) regardless of what he may think: Wildlife - all wildlife - belongs to the state, to the taxpaying citizens of this country and to all of us who buy hunting licenses.
Selling "rights" to shoot deer, elk, coyotes, etc. for profit is tantamount to trafficking in wild game in my opinion, and the state needs to bring this blatant privatization, exploitation, commercialization and industrialization of hunting to a halt soon, or the entire concept of wildlife management by hunting will self destruct.
Hunting recruitment is down 14% in the last 8 years, 22% over the last 24 years and dropping steadily. Us old guys are going to the happy hunting ground, and our children aren't replacing us because unless they can pay some waterfowl outfitter 250 bucks a day to whack geese, or a rancher $500 bucks to hunt "his" deer, they can't go.
And don't think for a minute the PETA freaks and other greenie groups don't see the commercialization of hunting as a golden opportunity to launch a billion lawsuits discrediting our sacred wildlife management tool (hunting) as the great social farce it's quickly becoming. Sadly, they'll be right.
Hunting is no longer about culling wildlife herds, or affordable outdoor family recreation; it's about gouging clients ($10,000 for an elk? C'mon...) and generating cash flow. It's about money and blood greed. And in the end it will be the death of our blood sports.
Surely you've noticed the only people "hunting" on the cable TV outdoor-porn-shows are bank presidents, CEOs, coprporate execs, rock stars and other celebrity types, most of whom couldn't find their ass in the dark with both hands let alone a whitetail deer in a 12-acre woodlot. Or a rabbit in a woodpile.
You don't see any blue-collar, down-home, Johnny Redneck working slobs in those productions because, although we're the "real deal", we don't photograph well. And we don't have the cash to hunt the legendary Buckhorn Ranch (who, by the way, is sponsoring this week's episode). So what we get is not a real hunt; it's a Hollyweird facsimile thereof, a steaming pile of advertorial BS. And sadly, it's becoming perceived as the norm. Canned hunts with famous guides are the stauts quo.
The day I'm forced to pay a "guide" to lead me around by the nose to shoot a damn duck, deer or prairie dog is the day I'll hang up my guns - because I'll no longer be a hunter; I'll just be another gullible client with a fat wallet and no where else to go.
Before long, you won't have to know how to scout, track, play the wind, read sign, pick a stand or any thing else about woodsmanship to be a hunter; you'll just have to show up with your Weatherby, a box of ammo and your checkbook.
Guided prairie dog hunts??? Have we really come to this? Apparently. We should be ashamed.
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Beware the man who shoots just one gun...
Posts: 44 | From: Loveland, CO | Registered: Nov 2005
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tawnoper
Knows what it's all about
Member # 497
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posted December 07, 2006 07:50 AM
Well said Dsmith7136
Posts: 53 | From: socal | Registered: Jan 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 07, 2006 08:03 AM
VERY WELL SAID
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 07, 2006 08:40 AM
Dsmith7136,
I couldn't agree more.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 07, 2006 10:59 AM
Dsmith, You are correct in the fact that supposidly the game belongs to the state. Next time you hit one with your car, try to collect from the state on the damage to your car. You can collect from a rancher (at least in Wyoming) if his cow gets on the road and you hit it.
But on to more of your subject, since the rancher or farmer feeds the states animals all year is he then entitled to charge the state for grazing? Since he doesn't sell the deer, what he and the outfitter are really selling is access to private land then, correct? If you don't want to access his land, then don't pay. If you don't need a guide, then don't hire one. I don't get you guys at all. It's not that big of deal. That landowner paid for that land or is trying to somehow, so isn't it his. Aren't private rights as important as public ones? Isn't that also part of the American way. No socialism and individual rights. You have the right to buy a house, should the government then be able to tell you that you have to share that house at no cost to some bum thats to cheap to pay a little rent? If you don't like the crap on TV, change the channel.
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted December 07, 2006 11:08 AM
Cal, VERY WELL SAID.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 07, 2006 12:21 PM
I sure like Cal. He's a good guy. Duly noted, he is on one side of the fence; easy access.
Truthfully, his arguments faze me not a bit.
I have seen many unethical business deal type of actions from landowners, and while the gun slob is still with us, bottom line; the hunting traditions of this Country are spiraling down the toilet.
Take for instance. A landowner leaves his gates open all season for forage, water, etc. Then the animals that belong to the Public come in, find it easy living and hang around.
Come August and September, the Rancher closes and locks all those gates and charges considerable money to trespass onto his land.
Would those gates be opened and then closed, if there was no hunting season on these particular animals?
I have (personally) seen/watched a landowner, who observed hunters trespass his unposted, and unfenced land; wait for them to kill three mule deer and then drive up with the Sheriff. I had sent those hunters to that location and advised them to stay on one side of the road....which they didn't do.
What this has to do with anything, I'm not sure?
But, boy. It sure seems like me and my offspring could be priced out of the market, judging by what happens every year at Bighorn Sheep auctions and the like.
Maybe it is just American Enterprise in all it's glory, but it could (eventually) leave a bunch of us little people on the outside with our noses pressed to the glass.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted December 07, 2006 12:28 PM
I see two sides to this roller coaster and think both sides are right.I agree the rancher who owns private ground has every right to charge access or post his land.I don't agree he owns the wildlife that roams his land.If he fences off or plant food plots to entice wildlife and then charges access to his land,thats where i have a problem with the whole deal.I think there should be laws against it.He is exploiting free roaming animals that belongs to the state and the hunters who pay for license to hunt them.Because he owns the land,i think it's wrong to say he owns the wildlife.If there going to charge a tresspass fee,then let it be just that, and reasonable.Not an out of this world rediculous price for knowingly charging to hunt wildlife he doesn't own.I think there should be a regulation on the amount of tress pass fee they can charge.If a guy wants to hire a guide,thats fine,it has nothing to do with the above.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 07, 2006 01:01 PM
One thing I have seen here in this state that burns me up is when ranchers/farmers will post there property for hand picked hunters, charge the big bucks to hunt them,then come winter when they(Elk and Deer) get into his hay or knock down some fences he calls Mr.fish and game officer to come deal with these problem animals,and wants the fish and game( us taxpayers) to remburse him for his losses.lol
[ December 07, 2006, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted December 07, 2006 01:22 PM
Ut, what you are talking about is wrong, and I agree with you. My opinion is that if a farmer/rancher does not allow public access and makes money off of his hunting then he is no longer entitled to state help with deer and elk in his haystacks or hayfields. The ranchers that I deal with have seen the light and will gladly lose a little hay in return for what they make back from hunting. So it is a win/win situation. The game and fish has less expense in trying to keep stuff out of haystacks, and the rancher makes it up on hunting. I see the need for guided hunts for a couple of reasons. I have two kinds of hunters, some are very capable and really don't need much of a guide, but they prefer not to deal with the masses when hunting and want something where they don't have to deal with several people chasing the same animal. The other type is the guy that has little actual feild experience and he needs a guide both to find the game and take it. There are alot of great guys that are pretty lacking in the hunting department. Either they didn't have someone to teach them when they were kids, or whoever did teach them knew very little. There are more and more of these type hunters. Mostly from the east, they didn't grow up hunting like most of us did. Where are they to turn if not to an outfitter? How do they get any practical hunting knowledge? These are also the guys that are driving the hunting industry right now as far as I can see. They have a decent income and they buy alot of stuff, and alot of licenses. I look at it alot like myself personally. If I were going to Africa or Alaska where I know little or nothing about the hunting there, I would damn sure hire the best guide I could afford.
And for Leonard.... when we leave our gates open, animals get out, they don't move in.
[ December 07, 2006, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 07, 2006 02:53 PM
Thus far, the argument, in Cal's world, has centered around open rangeland, hay fields and put up hay. Unfortunately, that's only the beginning of the problem for the rest of the country.
How would you guys feel if your tax dollars were spent to fund the planting of grass for Conservation Reserve Program acreage, buffer strips and the like? Then, the landowners turns around and takes the ground upon which is found the habitat your tax dollars went to develop and leases it to out of state bankers and businessmen? Locks the gate and tells you to stay the hell out? Now, not only are you restricted from hunting deer and other animals that are as much yours as they are any other taxpayers, but the one thing that made that land even worthy enough of anyone's attention was the fact that there was gras planted on it. Before then, it was waste ground.
To throw salt into the wound even more, these are the same landowners that then years ago were pissing and moaning to the state legislature that we had too many deer!!! Then, a couple years later, some greedy rat bastard in the legislature (in our case, their names were Robin Jennison and Mike Hayden) planted the idea in their heads that nimrods from "back east" would pay them good money to shoot those deer. Now, they don't have so much of a problem. They still bitch about too many deer but their arguments get shut down pretty damned fast when they're reminded that the reason they have so many deer now is because they now let three people on that leased ground that could afford a third each of the asking price rather than the 10-20 guys that same ground has supported for hunting since their dads and granddads owned that ground.
All in all, it's my decidedly strong opinion that the arguments about feeding those deer are bullshit. The cost of doing business! It's their ag welfare CRP program around here that created the habitat the deer needed to explode in numbers in the first place. No one in the state of Kansas implemented a deer breeding program. It happened on the heels of the Farm Bill. They won't give up the welfare check for NOT FARMING, but they'll sure bitch about the supposed damage the deer their welfare program encourages does to their crops. On top of that, CRP has created a huge water shortage around here. Only now are the state water people realizing that in Kansas, CRP has led to such a profound reduction in run off that all the farm ponds are going dry. The rivers are way down and haven't been up to normal levels in seven years. One city actually nearly ran out of water this year in Kansas because of the lack of runoff. All because of CRP and "modern farming practices". Not my opinion; their studies and data have clearly demonstrated that. And yet, these are the same famers that now bitch because they have to haul water to cattle. Damn! When do they have to choose between their cake and eating it.
If you limit your consideration of this issue to what Cal describes, you're missing the majority of the issue. His is nothing compared to the problems faced back east a bit. the good news? The guides are getting so greedy that they'll probably be killing each other off before it's all said and done. Last year, greedy poachers spurred by the big money/ big deer phenomenon attacked a farmer near here, disembowled him, tried to cut his throat and left him lying in the road for dead. This past weekend, two guides delivering clients to adjacent tracts of ground got into a verbal altercation culminating in one discharging a 12 gauge shotgun at the other. Fact is, I dislike both those sumbitches and will be happy to see the one go to jail and lose his right to own firearms.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted December 07, 2006 03:33 PM
Damn straight Lance!!! I`m of the opinion that anyone owning land that recieves one freakin` penny in Govt. money (tax dollars) should automatically have his land put on a register of land that is open to public hunting. I`m so sick of listening to farmers/ranchers piss & moan about how they can`t survive on what they make & NEED help from the govt.......bullshit!!!! You know what happens when I, as a contractor cant make ends meet....I either work harder, find another source of income or loose EVERYTHING, I`ve never heard of any govt. programs to help the rest of us small business owners pay for 45,000 dollar pickups that we drive to the coffee shop all winter so we can bitch about how ******* broke we are.
I do agree with Cal, there is a need for outfitters & I suppose it`s like any business, you have good ones & you have those that are a pimple on the ass of society.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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