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Author
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Topic: Bounty system
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 29, 2004 11:22 AM
Here's a situation about coyote control for you guys to ponder and give your thoughts on. Some county programs in Wyoming hire individual trappers and denners like myself and some counties institute a bounty program open to about everyone. Most of the money for these programs come from a state intstituted livestock head tax, but a small amount comes from game and fish (for wildlife damage) and also a small amount of federal funding. Anyway, which system do you think is better? Which is more effective, and why? I have my opinion, but whats yours?
[ August 29, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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brad h
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Member # 57
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posted August 29, 2004 11:48 AM
Individual trappers or control specialists are more effecitve IMO. They're able to spend all of they're time on the task and are more likely to get rid of the problem. Open bounties attract a lot of the part time and weekenders. Part time callers and trappers may get a bunch, but if the money is more apealing than the job itself, the individuals will go where ever they have to go to get the numbers, including other states or anywhere outside the designated area. That's just how I see it.
Brad
Posts: 346 | From: Glendive MT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tyler H
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Member # 383
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posted August 29, 2004 11:48 AM
Cal, I believe that Charles Cadieux said that no bounty system was effective and that it was generally rife with fraud. ADC men are more target specific, at least within a given area, and would certainly be more effective especially during denning season.
Posts: 25 | From: arizona | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 29, 2004 12:06 PM
Anything involving money will bring out the dishonest element.
As mentioned, and as I know for a fact, by talking to some of the guys that milked Sweetwater County for all it was worth, even to the point of trapping and releasing females, after cutting the ears; turning in Arizona and Utah coyotes, etc.
But, does it work, is a bounty effective? Is it perfect?
Depends. Sure put the wolves on the run, in the lower 48, a while back.
Professional assistance is also problematic, depending on the individual involved. Talent and ambition help a lot.
My unvarnished opinion is that a bounty system is/can be effective, if administered properly. And, that's the problem. Make it worthwhile, and at the same time, not overly tempting, for the crooks among us.
Can two systems co-exist effectively? ADC and Bounties? It gets complicated.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted August 29, 2004 12:40 PM
I think both systems can co-exist;
In regard to control, there is no question, the professional trapper / denner is the best method.
My preference on a bounty system would be that you have to bring in a streched fur at which time the ears would be knotched and a bounty paid.
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 29, 2004 12:55 PM
I don't think bounties work at all. Period. Utah has been paying them for a few years now, on a county-by-county basis. The fraud aspects aside (which are rampant), it simply does not have any real impact on coyote populations, that I've ever seen. Here, the typical bounty is $20 a head. The last year I paid enough attention to know for sure (several years ago), the bounty program for the state had a budget of $100,000, to be used as matching funds for counties what wished to participate. When it was gone, it was gone. In the one county I happened to be paying close attention, the budget was used up in less than a month. Figure that in one of the more prolific bounty paying counties, there are thousands of coyotes. No way are they going to have the budget to pay out enough, to ever have a meaningful impact. No way.
The thrust here in Utah has been towards preserving fawn crops, more than anything else. Much as I personally don't like to see it, because it has had a tremendous impact on some of my old "honey holes", it is far, FAR more effective to spend the money on M44's, av gas and 10 guage shells for the pro's than it is to pay out bounties. And I mean by orders of magnitude, infinitely more effective. I should point out, that I've really not paid much attention to any of this the last few years, but back when it all got rolling, I was paying REAL close attention. Since it all got going from lobbying efforts of a sportsmans group, and was as already mentioned intended to increase fawn survival, a lot of the pro work was taking place during fur season. Never forget the first time I had a plane actually come slow-chugging over the sage brush out in front of me on stand and not really knowing what in the heck was happening until the shotgun started to go blurp, blurp-blurp. I got ahold of a friend, who lived by the gov't trapper for that county, found out that they took 65 coyotes out of that valley that weekend. Compare that to even GOOD recreational callers, out for bounties.
But the bounties are policitcally popular, especially among the constituents of the smaller counties that tend to take part in the program. Air gunning, M44's, professional denning and trapping are not.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 29, 2004 01:31 PM
You guys surprise me. Most of you think along the same lines as I do. I'm pretty sure that if I made this same post on another particular board that is frequented by hoards of newbies, the answers would be quite different.
My only question so far is to Norm, why should a coyote have to be skinned and stretched to be bountied? I have actually done alot of both, I have bountied alot of coyotes in a county that requires the ears. In times when a good pale coyote here was worth 7 to 15 dollars, I saw no reason to put forth the effort to put up a coyote for that meager amount. And to rationalize it another way, I figure that a lack of coyotes will drive the market up, but I would sure bounty those same coyotes for 25 to 50 dollars each. Now with our better coyotes bringing 30 to 40 dollars, it is worth the time and effort to put them up, plus if they are taken in that county you can still bounty that same coyote. Anyway, I'm wondering your reasoning for requiring that coyotes be put up to collect the bounty. The most effective time to do big numbers is when the fur isn't any good anyway. And in most places where they have bounty systems pups bounty also. usually for a lesser amount, which I don't understand, because they are still coyotes, pups or not.
edit: I was going to ask Leonards opinion of how to design his bounty program and make it work.
[ August 29, 2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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brent Saxton
unknown comic
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posted August 29, 2004 05:33 PM
I will haft to agree with the fact that it should be left up to the guys that do it for a living. Here in Ohio they are looking at the bounty system for some countys now. I feel like this will hurt us more than it will help. For one thing there problem seems to be more of the erban coyote, taking pets off the front porch of the local subdivision.
The main thing is that it brings all the worst types of people out of the wood work! Am only makes it harder for any of us to kill coyotes.
Leave the bountys out, and let the ADC guys do there job.
Only thing is, what about the states that dont have goverment ADC guys? Or enough to go around.
Ohio is just to the point were they are starting to have trouble....Here and there. Not enough to suport a full time ADC people.
Sould they hire part time ADC help or what is the answer?
Kee
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WhiteMtnCur
Knows what it's all about
Member # 5
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posted August 29, 2004 07:19 PM
In my opinion the bounty system is ripe with fraud no matter where or how it's conducted. I've yet to see it be of any help anywhere.
If ranchers sponsor a bounty, than while they're having sheep/calves killed by coyotes, every idiot is out in the hayfields or a long way from the sheep killing coyotes that are of no value to the sheepmen.
I know the only good coyote is a dead coyote, but a coyote killing rabbits or mice ten miles from the nearest sheep is of little value to the rancher who needs specific coyotes killed.
I can't think of many guys who are going to put in the time to kill a pair or trio of coyotes that are killing livestock, which may take 2 weeks or more, to collect two or three $20-$25 bounties. I know I sure wouldn't. There's no financial justification for it. You need someone who's getting a regular salary so they can focus their attention on ending the livestock loss.
Utah's played with bounties a lot, but I haven't seen the slightest bit of help in any way as far as benefitting livestock or big game species. Sportsman for Fish & Wildlife has pressured Utah's Wildlife Services into a lot of emphasis on killing coyotes to benefit big game, and I do believe that has helped, but that's another story, and I'm getting off topic.
I personally believe bounties are a joke and a waste of money. Ranching groups/woolgrower associations would be better off to fund a knowledgeable, hard-working predator control agent to protect livestock than they would to fund a bounty.
Edit to address Leonard's question about predator control programs and bounties simultaneously.
This past year while working privately for a ranching group in Wyoming, a bounty of $25 was put on all coyotes in the area I was working. It lead to a whole lot more headaches than it did help.
While I was calling/trapping/snaring/M44ing coyotes around livestock, no callers/trappers anywhere to be found. Yet they were still turning in coyotes for the bounty? Most of these coyotes were coming from areas with no livestock, down at lower elevations where the hunting was easier.
The added pressure on coyotes from all the people who decided they'd go call coyotes for the first time to make easy money didn't help things either.
I had two instances of hunters shooting at my coyote dogs (wearing visiblee blaze orange collars). Many local hunters disliked me killing coyotes they felt entitled to and I have no reason to believe the shots at my dogs were accidents.
I ran into numerous problems with coyotes and equipment being stolen on public land since everyone now saw a coyote as an easy $25, and the trap on it's foot was a nice souvenier.
I'll hunt down the percentages, but while the bounty was paid, the ranchers lost more livestock and money than during the times it wasn't paid.
[ August 29, 2004, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: WhiteMtnCur ]
Posts: 97 | From: Nevada | Registered: Jan 2003
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted August 30, 2004 05:58 AM
Let the pros do their job and leave the bounties out of it. In Nevada the planes get more coyotes in one week than all the callers, and there are a lot of them, get in a year here. That is effctive predator control if you ask me. And there is no fraud involved. NVWalt
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 638 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted August 30, 2004 06:14 AM
Cal, My reasoning for bounty only on a skinned coyote is to minimize the fraud aspects... how many road killed coyotes are bountied?
I grew up as a trapper and hunter... was always taught that if it was meant to be skinned, skin it... if you shot it to eat, eat it... if you weren't after the fur or the meat... don't shoot it....
So I have the personal opinion that if you are going to call a coyote to shoot, you should skin it, period.. I know that isnt the opinion of everyone and creates great controversy... but that is the foundation for my comment... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted August 30, 2004 06:43 AM
Norm, I have no problem with a personal self imposed fur or meat only hunting. I don't shoot bobcats in the summertime because they are too valuable in the winter. But due to the huge numbers of coyotes in most areas and the depredation they cause, I don't have a problem with summertime coyote hunting (personally). But as far as road kill, they do get bountied, and in the winter alot of them get skinned. Back when coyotes were bringing near a $100 here, a road kill wouldn't lay next to the road long unless it was already pizza.
The fraud aspect in general is part of the reason a bounty system doesn't work well.
[ August 30, 2004, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted August 30, 2004 06:46 AM
Cal Taylor,
The qualified professional with traps, snares and denning dogs will always be most effective when we are talking about controlling the livestock killers. I believe that the livestock killers are usually one or two coyotes working a specific area. I don't see either method doing much to control total numbers of coyotes, but the professional coyote man does much better at stopping the calf eaters.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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varmit hunter
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Member # 37
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posted August 30, 2004 09:56 AM
It makes me quiver to think what would happen if they started a bounty down here in Bubba land.
Out would come the cheapest E caller from Wall Mart. Ar 15 with thirty round mags, And Q beams stuck out of every truck window. I forgot two cases of Miller Light per trip.
Let the pros do there job. Isn't that why they call them pros?.
Ronnie
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Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 30, 2004 11:16 AM
As usual, the issue has several facets.
Let me tell you a story about something that happened in California, some years ago. You may relate.
It was determined, by the State Department of Fish and Game, and the US Park Service, that Yosemite Valley had way too many deer. Simple expedient was to create a special hunt, put in an application, and have a drawing. Lots of easy venison.
Then, the animal rights retards grabbed onto the issue. Many hysterical reasons why such a thing was foolhardy and dangerous.
The Governmental Agencies did the chickenshit, didn't support their facts and figures, tested the political wind and bailed out. No special hunt.
What happened was that a half a dozen Park Rangers shot seven hundred surplus deer, left to rot. PETA was happy, the bureaucrats were off the hook, and a lot of people were all dressed up with no place to go.
I think there is a lesson there, someplace. Sure, aerial gunning is effective, solves problems. Sure, bounties involve some fraud and create problems. But. One size does not fit all.
I don't know the answers, but I am a little aprehensive of the professional solution, in every case.
Again, I don't have the answers, but leaning too far in one direction is of concern.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 30, 2004 11:41 AM
Generally, in anything in life, leaning too far towards one direction isn't the best way. And I've had my personal beefs with the professional eradication effort in some of the areas I used to hunt. But, I really believe that the bounty system, specifically, simply has no value. It just does not work, at all, to reduce coyote numbers or protect livestock.
Trevor touched on one of the fundamental reasons why it doesn't work, in my opinion. At it's core, the purpose of a bounty is to reduce coyote numbers, and the way it is supposed to do that is by motivating people to get out there and kill more of them. Now, I do know some very, very good callers that collect on bounties when it suits them. But, I do not know of one single instance, not once, of a "good" caller being motivated to go out and kill more coyotes by a bounty. The ONLY people I have seen motivated by the bounty, are the most clueless of the clueless. Those that believe $20 a coyote is "easy money". Ask any of my fellow Utahn's here about it, they've seen 'em, by the boat load. I don't mind newbie callers, that take it serious and are out there learning and getting better like we all do. But those bounty-hunting "easy money" jack asses... They can take a big stretch of perfectly good desert and just ruin it for a day. But they aren't making even the slightest measurable dent in the coyote population. Which is supposed to the the whole point of the thing.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted August 30, 2004 04:19 PM
I hear ya Cal, I never said it would work...
I agree with the other comments... it would be hard to make a bounty system work as a population control mechansim.
To actually create a resonable program, one probably has to step back and define what does population control mean? Does it have harvest targets?, then look at the avenues that may address the harvest; normal hunting, trapping, roadkill, professional and government denners/trappers, etc. Put a percentage to each discipline and determine if the percentage is equal to the desired target... if not, what incentive is required to reach the target... better pay for professionals? bounty for the hunters and trappers?
Like many issues... it is like a pendulum. It swings back and forth... and there is really never a right answer as every year the population of any animal is different for various reasons...
Great question though.
[ August 30, 2004, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Norm ]
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Carpe Diem
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John/Alaska
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Member # 25
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posted September 02, 2004 11:39 AM
A while back we had way too many wolves (still do). The state was quivering from the animal rights complaints about the state hired trappers and how inhumane they were to those poor little wolves. The state gave in and the ADC work ceased. The Alaska Trappers Asociation stepped in with a "bounty". As fur prices were down and were based on fur condition the ATA guaranteed a pay of $400 per wolf regardless of condition. They just created an market subsidy system open to anyone. You had your choice, sell it for $400 or put some work in to it and maybe get a bunch more $$.
The ATA funded the program via donations and proceeds off the sale of the fur. Program ran for a couple of years. Did well too. The state finally returned to the game but instead of shooting the wolves they sterilized the pack leaders. Since wolves have a pretty strict mating hiarchy it took a couple of years before a pack would have any young. The program sure helped the caribou herd that was targeted for protection recover.
Now the state is back into airel hunting of wolves in selected units but are are using the private sector to do it. You, pilot & gunner, apply. Only so many permits are provided at a time. You keep the wolves that you shoot.
Anyway just a different take on the question at hand.
Posts: 62 | From: Tok Alaska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted September 03, 2004 02:53 PM
I know exactly what DAA is talking about.
The problem is they are paying a bounty on YOY coyotes now. To me that is a gift to the guy that brought that animal in. In the areas that I hunt it is highly likely that that same animal was destined to come to someone’s call to be shot, or end up in someone’s trap with no cost to the organization paying the bounty.
Maybe if they started paying the bounty after the coyotes started to rub, they could get some of the more serious guys that usually shut it down then to stay out in the field after the not so serious guys have become discouraged and given up.
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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