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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 01, 2014, 10:16 AM:
Looking at the used market for a tougher hunting 4x4. I seriously doubt that I will be doing the Moab trails.
I see Dave has a Rubicon, and a few trucks. Been looking at the 2007+ Wrangle Unlimiteds w/hardtops because I like the extra room of a 4 door, and I believe the 07's or slightly larger than the older models. I haven't drove jeeps since the 80's in a few owned by Uncle Sam, and a few CJ's back then.
Are there any serious issues with these as compared to a pickup truck? Can you actually lock up the Wranglers with things in it or is that like trying to pick up a turd from the clean end?
Wondering if I would come out ahead with a short wheelbase Pickup with a small lift, good tires, and a few added skid plates?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 01, 2014, 11:11 AM:
Apples and Oranges. The JK's lock up just fine, same as any other SUV. Unless of course you are running a soft top. I run mine with no top at all about 7 months out of the year. Half the time without doors.
Trucks are just different animals. And if you need a truck, a Jeep just won't do. That's why I have both.
If I could only have one, it would have to be the truck. Absolutely love my Jeep. Have way more fun in it than any truck. But there are things I need a truck for that the Jeep just can't do. But even it if were just for hunting, if I could only have one, the truck is just too much more versatile.
The JK's are pretty solid. A few known weaknesses, but what vehicle doesn't have some? As long as you buy one that isn't lifted too high, been shod with too much tire, or been used too hard, there's nothing out of the ordinary to look for.
If buying one that's already been lifted and used a bit. Look for a bent front axle - make sure it isn't smiling at you. Look at the inner C's too, they are another weak spot - if the tires seem even a little bit leaned in at the top, beware. For how I personally use a Jeep, I'd plan on sleeving the tubes and gusseting the C's after purchase. Or a new aftermarket housing.
I think all the four doors came with 44's front and rear, although I'm not positive about that. Something to double check I guess, if any of them didn't, avoid those. And except for the weak axle tubes and inner C's on the front, they are stronger 44's than the TJ's or CJ's came with. Shouldn't even be called 44's, really, bigger ring and pinion, different bigger bearings, bigger stronger u-joints, more splines stronger shafts, much beefier brakes, all that good stuff.
I may someday put a pair of JK 44's under my LJ - I consider them that much better. They are wider too though - which is basically good, but something I'll need to address if I transplant a pair under my LJ.
Pretty easy to find super clean 4 doors around here. One's that have never left pavement. They are super popular with the soccer moms. So tons of gently used ones to be found. They hold their value though, finding really good deals on them takes some patience.
I'm so deep into my LJ there is just no way I'm ever getting out of it. Likely the last Jeep I'll ever own and I treat it that way. But if I had the funds, I'd take a built 4 door JK over it in a heartbeat. They are better in almost every way. Only thing for me though, is I'd have to have a '12 or newer. Just not a fan of the mini van 3.8 V6 in the '07-'11 models. I mean, it's okay, but nothing to love about it. The 3.6 Pentastar in the '12 and newer is MUCH mo betta. The auto trans that comes with them is even much better still, compared to the one bolted to the 3.8's. The Pentastar package has it all - lighter weight, more power, significantly better MPG. I've climbed out of a 3.8 JKU and straight into a 3.6 JKU and the difference is startling. The 3.6 is just so much nicer.
Like I said, it's just talk, for me, because it ain't gonna happen. But I don't think I could settle for the 3.8, with the 3.6's out there. Easy to say when I'm not actually doing it and spending the money though!
- DAA
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 11:17 AM:
Dan, I have been pondering the same decision. I'm leaning towards a new Ford 4x4 w/5.0 V8 MAINLY(!) because of the factory warranty. GM has finally put the 6.2 400+ hp engine in their 1/2 ton P/U's but if I made my decision today, it would be the F-150. Family members in the business have cautioned me to stay away from Chrysler, including the Jeeps unless new. This isn't my first hand info tho, alleged wiring/computer issues can put you in the poor house which puts me full circle, back to looking for "any" new truck w/ factory warranty.
I kinda feel like a floater in the toilet bowl, everyone comes by and try's to flush me but for what ever reason I'm left bobbing in the water, praying for relief.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2014, 11:20 AM:
I'm not the one to ask, but the CJ's have such a rough short wheel base ride that if I had one, I would trailer it on the highway and only roll it off for negotiating the really bad trails.
I think a pickup has a lot more utility than a Suburban or whatever the call that 4 door Jeep? Danny Batistini had one, I guess it suited him because really he was too sick to do anything but drive black top.
Having an integrated roof with everything inside is a plus, no denying that. Jeeps are not particularly cheap. I rented one, one time I think it was a Grand Cherokee, but the SUV.
This is absolutely a true story. I was driving a wide graded road with the intention of pulling off and making a stand, somewhere west of Phoenix. I pulled off and over the berm and immediately got stuck and high centered. Unbelievable! I had to crawl under the vehicle with a meat clever and scoop dirt. Slow and tedious, i didn't want to get any deeper by trying to power out of there. Embarrassed when a car went by, I was only about ten feet off the road.
Long story short. I would never own one based on that event.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 01, 2014, 12:20 PM:
Prune, I hope you don't mind my asking - it's just idle curiosity, but why the 5.0 and not the EcoBoost?
I think the F150 is the best selling vehicle in the state of Utah. Seems like just about everyone I know who has bought a new anything the last couple of years, it has been an F150. But they have all been EcoBoost and they all seem to love them.
- DAA
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 12:46 PM:
Dave, the Eco Boost maybe the best choice, I'm not qualified to debate it tho. If Ford was still pushing the 5.4 & 6.2 spark plug mobile launching systems I would go with the Eco w/o question. The 5.0 is "suppose to be" internally the same engine being used in the Mustang GT. The advertised horsepower & torque rating have been reduced in the 5.0 for "?" reason. But the thought of a 4/or V6 pulling 2.5 tons scares the crap outta me. and like you, my next purchase will probably be my last 4x4 P/U. If I can get one equipped with what I want (extended cab or plain old 2 doors with leather) for less than 40k I will probably dig up my piggy bank and buy one. And for whatever reason the 2014's are still absent here locally. Ford is offering some tempting deals on the 2013, 4 door 4x4's with a pile of chromed plastic trail markers, but I'm staying firm on what I want! "So far"
Edited to add: Ford will add a 4 cyl Eco Boost engine to the 2015 F series P/U line according to the local dealer. Horse Power rating will be in the 320 h.p. range to take advantage of the appx. 800 lb. reduction in advertised weight of the standard P/U. (Aluminum Body Parts)
[ February 01, 2014, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 01, 2014, 02:08 PM:
Makes sense enough to me.
It wasn't really a big reason, only a small one, but the newness of the EcoBoost was a small part of why I shied away from it too. That, and I've owned several turbo'd engines in the past and experienced the joys of expensive repair when a turbo has an "out of warranty experience".
- DAA
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 02:47 PM:
After thinking a bit, maybe the allure of the Eco Boost in your area is due to the elevation there? The increased torque of a turbo'd engine cannot be ignored. And for what it's worth, I honestly think if I lived in The Rocky Mountains, I would be driving a turbo diesel. Now that Chrysler & Nissan are putting diesels in their 1/2 tons who knows what lies in our future quest of the ideal 4x4.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 01, 2014, 02:51 PM:
For sure, the guys that have them like to tell me about towing at 10,000' with them and it does sound impressive.
My last two trucks were 3/4 ton turbo diesels and they were great. But my spine just can't hack the covered wagon ride of a 3/4 ton anymore. And I can live without the towing ability too, I don't drag around anything anymore that a 1/2 ton can't handle.
It for sure is going to be interesting to see how the 1/2 ton diesels work out. Prolly end up doing real well.
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 01, 2014, 03:03 PM:
How do the diesels work out in really cold weather? Like trying to fire them up after being turned off all night? Any gelling problems with the fuel? I've never had one so I am curious.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 03:06 PM:
I am headed to town, snow headed this way. Our local Dodge dealer changed ownership recently and I am intending to stop by and check out what they have on the lot, maybe the new guys will deal for a change? I would like to drive the new 1/2 diesel 4x4, if nothing more than saying I did.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 08:05 PM:
Dan, my experience with Diesel P/Up's was limited to warm weather climates. My tractor has never given me any trouble, but I do use the glo plugs in cold weather. Around here (south central okla) my neighbors will plug their diesel P/U block heaters in during extreme cold. I have a Nephew who works on the North Slope in Alaska. In the winter they do not shut the engines off unless parked indoors for service. According to him they have switched around, using Dodge/Cummins, Chevy/Duramax & presently Ford/"what ever they call their new failure".
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 01, 2014, 08:35 PM:
I stopped by the local Dodge-Jeep dealer. I didn't see any of the new 1/2 ton diesel p/up's. So I looked around in the dark! No nite lights, saw a 2014 Jeep Wrangler w/3.6, 4 door that appeared loaded for 31k sticker. Also looked at 2 Cherokees,V8's etc for just south of 50K (WOW!)but they were easy on the eyes and appear to be larger/wider than just a few years ago. A nephew of mine who works in auto industry recently said that if Dodge would ditch the car line and concentrate on full size P/Up's & Jeeps, they could corner the market, but he also added that it will probably never happen.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 02, 2014, 06:27 AM:
Dan, it doesn't get that cold here. Never had any problem starting any of my diesels or any fuel gelling or any of that. Never even bothered to plugin the block heater on any of mine.
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 02, 2014, 06:58 AM:
Well, I decided to look at some used 4x4 pickups.
Got my eye on a very clean looking Chev 06 Z71 5.3L v8 shortbed with 80K miles. May go look at it tomorrow.
I am kind of curious, and since you all are unbiased, what are your opinions on these trucks? Good/bad
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 02, 2014, 08:36 AM:
That's low miles for an '06, should have much life left in it.
The 5.3 is a GREAT little motor. And the 4L60E that is probably bolted on behind it is a good automatic trans too. I've actually been thinking for along time that is the combo that will eventually end up in my Jeep.
Probably a 10 bolt rear, which is fine for the application. Should give long life if you don't get stupid with big tires and horsepower. Lots of aftermarket support should you want to put a locker in it or something.
Likely an NVG246 transfer case. One of the earlier electronic models. I'm kind of meh on them, but that's coming from a slightly hard core offroad perspective. For "normal" use they are just fine, will last forever etc. and the auto 4whd mode is actually quite useful for slipper highway use. I can't remember for sure, but I think that is one that you have to be careful what kind of fluid you use in it, because of the clutches for the auto 4wd mode. Not like most transfer cases for which pretty much anything oily is fine. Not sure about that though - just something to check on when it's time to change the fluid.
The IFS has a lot of wear items. If left stock - no lift, stockish sized tires, then at 80K it is probably not quite ready for a bunch of new parts, but it won't be too much longer either. Those parts have gotten to be pretty cheap though and a complete refresh of the front end can be done in the driveway on a Saturday. Did it on a buddies Chev not too long ago, tie rods, idler, pitman arm and all four ball joints and we were done by early afternoon. Ask me if you ever get to doing the ball joints - they are kind of a bitch no matter what but there are less difficult ways to get them off.
Those trucks need a lot of lift to clear big tires. Too much lift. I would not go there. The taller lifts depend on drop brackets but still result in greatly accelerated front end and driveshaft wear and tear. Plus, they look stupid being ten feet tall and only having 35" tires.
It doesn't sound like you plan on any of that nonsense though, so a non-issue. I'd be leery of the truck if it has already suffered such treatment though.
Used appropriately and not put on a 6" lift and 35's, those trucks are solid. Dependable, long lasting, easy to maintain and repair. With such low miles, if the price is right, you just might have a gem there.
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 02, 2014, 09:12 AM:
Good grief Dave, Auto's and 4x4 must be one of your passions just like Hunting and photography! I am tempted to just turn you loose and ask you to find me something nice, then send a check to pay for it. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'm obviously not a hard core off road person. I may add a couple inches of lift and perhaps something like the stock 265/70R/17's which are about 31.5" or slightly taller, doubt I'd ever go bigger than 33's.
I tend to shop and shop before I pull the trigger. Been burnt too many times rushing into a sale. I'll look at the truck tomorrow, and take my checkbook just in case.
[ February 02, 2014, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 02, 2014, 10:12 AM:
It sounds like you've found yourself a nice pickup there, Dan.
Like Dave mentioned there's no flies on that 5.3 IMO. I'm probably going to be looking for something like that next year myself.
Although, might go Ford just for something different, all my pickups in my life have been Chevys.
Good luck !
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 02, 2014, 02:03 PM:
I drive an 06 Z71 4 door and I can honestly say it's the best p/u I've ever owned. 06 is the last year the engine remains an 8 cyl, which is a big plus to me. 07 on they cut down to 4 cyl to conserve fuel and most have engine trouble about 130k.
I've used the truck from running through mud and snow to hauling 3000 +lbs of cores down the highway. Wash it up and it serves as a decent car to go to the city in. Used to pull a 27' travel trailer with it too. No mountains but it did alright around here.
I think the 06 is about as good as a Chevy can get.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on February 02, 2014, 02:59 PM:
Tom,
What kind of gas mileage are you getting with yours? Is it pretty stock still?
This one, from the pics and what I heard from talking to the seller is all stock, except a tool box in the bed. Only plans I have if nothing is needed like tires and such, is putting some kind of camper top on the bed.
[ February 02, 2014, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 02, 2014, 05:52 PM:
I get 18 on the highway running 70-75, about 14 in town.
I put a K&N filter on it, Monroe overload shocks on the rear and magnums on the front. Other than that it's stock. I've put front brakes, a positioning sensor in the transfer case, an a/c belt and tensioner, a battery and while under warranty (25000 miles) a fuel rail probably due to bad gas. That's all I've done to it.
I've always had a toolbox in the back of my work trucks but I didn't want one in this short bed. The back seat folds up and the back pulls forward allowing me plenty of storage, something the 07's and on don't do.
If I had to buy a new one now I don't know what I'd buy now.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 03, 2014, 06:38 AM:
Dan, you might wanna snoop around for a 2006 Tundra, if ya can get over the Jap label. Never bothered me and just about to turn 190K on my '03 Tundra. Not a hiccup from the drivetrain in 10 yrs, the 4.7L v8 still purrs like a kitten. Did the timing belt, water pump & all pulleys @ 110K, as recommended service. Other than that, completely trouble free. Synthetic oil changes and 93octane gas its whole life seems to be paying off in old age, LOL The 4.7L don't bleed or burn a drop of oil, provides good power and decent highway mileage. 17-18mpg @ 72mph
Did re-build the whole front end @ 150K, (UCAs LCAs coilovers, rack, tie rods, etc), due to wear & tear, to be expected. For me, its been a phenomenal truck and have no inclination of replacing it for quite a few more years!
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 11, 2014, 05:16 AM:
Being a retired auto mechanic, I don't have a preference. They all have issues. Ford are built tough but are also generally tougher to fix. Funny thing with Fords are the front ball joints because they look real strong but usually wear out at 100k. Chevy's ball joints don't look as tough but I've never change any under 150k. Dodge parts are usually more expensive than either ford or chevy. Toyota and Nissan make some really good trucks that are very dependable. One thing, if you buy anything that has an overhead cam, you should use a synthetic oil IMHO and never let it overheat. If it starts getting hot, call a tow truck. Overhead cam engines are more expensive to fix if you breakem.
As far as a prefernce between a SUV or Truck 4x4, I'll take a truck any day. I believe a short bed toyota could go just about anywhere a jeep could go.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 11, 2014, 05:26 AM:
One more thing I would like to add is I've never been a fan of Jeeps. I don't like the fact that they hide relays and power transitors all over the place. If they would put such items in a Power Distribution Center like most manufacturers, I probably wouldn't be adding this comment. The power transitor is used to have variable speed cooling fans by pulse width modulating the 12vdc to the cooling fans. Why bother doing it this way. This power transitor has to handle a lot of power and I've changed way to many that are hidden from easy access?
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on February 11, 2014, 07:40 AM:
Double ditto on the Tundra.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2014, 09:39 AM:
Yeah, and ditto on the Ford hard to fix. Geezus, I had to do a small job on my mom's little car one time and before I was finished, I had practically everything out from under the hood except what I needed to fix. Oh, and replacing the fuel pump on my Suburban, one time? Forget it, I took it to the dealer. Did I mention the fucking filter inside the fuel tank?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 11, 2014, 04:52 PM:
Leonard, a lot of cars have the fuel filter inside the tank. Dodge started that in the mid 90s. There are a lot of things I don't like about newer cars. No automatic transmission dipstick. Too much chit we don'e need like Zone Air Conditioning. Doors without key tumblers, SUV hatches that work off electric latches. Try and fix a SUV latch when it doesn't work. It is a mother F^&%$r to even get the trim panel off from the inside let alone get it unlatched. To much dependency on electronics to do everything like control our braking, traction, and stability. How did any of us live to get this old riding in cars when we were young without a baby/toddler safety seat for our mothers to put us in. Most of us have driven cars with a single master cylinder system. You lose the master cylinder and you have no brakes. In 1967 they went to split systems that seldom caused a complete brake failure. We drove with no seat belts let alone a three point harness system with air bags. My first two trucks had the gas tank inside the cab right behind the seat. The big boot between the cab and the filler neck rotted out and I would get a gas smell in the cab whenever r I spilled a little gas while filling the tank. I guess we are lucky to still be alive. My concern is all this automatic crap is making a bunch of very stupid drivers IMHO. Example: The passenger door lock actuator was out on my truck and a friend of my grandson was in the passenger seat and could not figure out how to unlock the door. I kept telling him to pull the latch up. He just kept hitting the unlock button.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on February 11, 2014, 05:09 PM:
AZ-I'm with ya. When, I was a parts guy in the auto business, it was funny how many folks, not to pick on women, but yeah...
They would call and say their keyless remote wasn't working, and they couldn't get into their car. I would very politely say, just stick the key in the door lock and turn.
They would usually laugh..Good times ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 11, 2014, 05:34 PM:
AZ, thanks for clarification on the Jeeps. Tom & I have mulled over buying used Jeeps. My Nephew is who put the doubt in me over wiring/computer issues on things like turn signals, electric hatch releases etc. he says too this day... only buy a new one with a factory warranty and don't do anything to get the warranty voided. But heck! that pretty much sums up all the new suv's & trucks. I freely admit to being apprehensive in selecting a new vehicle of any brand much less something that I will use to go off road in, but a new F150 will probably get the nod when I'm able to get an acceptable deal on one equipped how I want it.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 11, 2014, 08:35 PM:
PruneDude;
I had a Jeep CJ7 Laredo.
Bought it new and sold it at 13,000 miles.
It was in the shop more than it was in my driveway.
Then the warranty ran out............. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on February 11, 2014, 11:15 PM:
KoKo, when you sold the CJ7, did that qualify you for a "Pay It Forward" good deed?
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 12, 2014, 06:16 AM:
Prune Picker: Fords are really tough. I mean that. I wouldn't be afraid to drive a ford 150k. Their water pumps, fuel pumps and other normal parts last a really long time. I just wish they would use normal a spark plug system. It is their goal to think outside the box. The tritons had built in spark plug ejection systems that would blow the plug out because one engine plant (some engine plants didn't install this feature) would put only three threads in the spark plug hole and that is in an aluminum head. Well the tool companies developed a tool to fix that. Around 2005 they fixed the ejection problem and went to a 3 piece spark plug which requires this little tool: http://www.amazon.com/OTC-6918-Spark-Plug-Remover/dp/B00C6R1P6I
This spark plug was three pieces and you may only get one part out, or maybe two pieces out or maybe the whole plug if you were lucky. I purchased this tool but never used it. I was always lucky. The problem is the time studies are based on new engines which never have sticky parts. I charged double the time because I always took my time. I would unscrew the plug as much as possible without turning it abnormally hard. Once it got hard, usually after 1/2 turn, I would put an ounce of penetrating oil down in the plug well. Let it soak for an hour, then turn it back in and then back it out again without using excessive pressure. Let it soak some more and then work it in and out until again and again until you can remove it. It is normal to get some creaking sounds during removal. Don't use too much oil or you may cause hydro-static lock up. What a bunch of BS IMHO. Just be prepared to pay more in labor. I have a friend who was born and raised in Dearborn Michigan. He has a friend who is an engineer with ford. His buddy told him ford use to pay supervisors based upon how may people they were responsible for. Sounds reasonable. NOT. The engineering supervisors always pushed the engineers to use the Rube Goldberg rule of design so that they could request more engineers and thus get a raise. Example: They had this one engine that used cam phasing on the exhaust cam to eliminate the EGR Valve. They put in an $800 add on to eliminate a $150 part. At least this is what the parts cost from the dealer if they went out.
If you keep it long enough to replace the hoses, pay the money and go factory. I don't care for aftermarket. The hoses usually last at least 100k. Read the service schedule in the owners manual and don't do anything within the owners manual until required: EXCEPT the cooling system. I would have it pressured tested at least once a year when summer is close and change the coolant every two years. Overheating is the number one reason for catastrophic engine failure, at least it is in this part of the world. I say read the service schedule because many dealers and private repair shops attempt to sell stuff that isn't required. Many of the flushes they sell are designed to flush your wallet even if you don't need it.
edited in: Use a good synthetic oil with these new engines.
[ February 12, 2014, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 12, 2014, 07:56 AM:
Prune;
The good deed was the Toyota p/u I bought and put just under 350,000 miles on.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 12, 2014, 08:31 AM:
Prune Picker: also I worked on older jeeps. I never saw anything newer than a 2002 so they might have changed. I heard when chrysler bought jeep there was a restrictive covenant that required them to not change the design on certain models for specified amount of time. I don't know if it is true however.
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