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Author
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Topic: How much more effective is calling at night?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 15, 2007 06:38 PM
I need you creatures of the night to help me out here, guys.
I'm currently in the early stages of undertaking a project to seek regulatory and statutory changes in how coyotes can be hunted in Kansas by asking for a new rule that allows coyotes to be called at night with the use of artificial light. At present, we cannot use fake light of any kind.
Under our current proposal, we're hoping that we can get our state wildlife agency's commission, or the state legislature, to create a provision that would allow us a season for hunting coyotes at night, from 1-1 to 3-31 each year, with artificial light as long as the hunter, caller and light are all separated from the vehicle.
We've established these dates and the vehicle separation points as a means of getting around the concerns we expect about poaching our beloved deer. (I know... Texas doesn't worry about poaching and gets along fine.)
Anyway, here's where I need input from respected, objective callers with a lot of experience. I'm trying to enlist the support of our furbearer biologist and he's somewhat on board, but seriously questions whether or not coyotes will be that much easier to call once they've survived a night hunt.
In short, are coyotes in areas where night hunting has been done for years still easier to call at night than they are in the daytime? Are there significant differences in calling success at night compared to day where night hunting is allowed?
Please know that I will be forwarding a link to this thread to our biologist and your comments may be used in support of this effort.
Thanks.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 15, 2007 06:49 PM
In short; Yes
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted October 15, 2007 07:56 PM
My only experience in night hunting is in Indiana each and every year, and I have been doing so for over 40 years. I can honestly say that I can call 5-7 coyotes at night to every one I call in the daytime.
Indiana's laws are very similar to what you are trying to use there in Kansas. As long as the light is not attached to the vehicle and we can use any caliber we want.
FWIW
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted October 15, 2007 08:59 PM
Lance, I certainly don`t consider myself an expert at it but I do actually go out with the lights several times throughout the year. Not being able to spot or shoot from a vehicle creates enough challenges in & of itself that you`ll find only the die hards out calling coyotes in the middle of the night, it typically(not always) takes two callers that have their poop in a group & work well together to pull it off when you`re forced to be portable but that will be a whole other discussion.
From my experience it has been easier to call more coyotes at night, especially in areas that seem to be "tough" in daylight hours, of course on the flip side of that if I have good daytime areas I`ll almost always go that route just to avoid the extra effort needed to set a stand "away" from the vehicle at night.
It is productive from my viewpoint & I don`t have all the fancy equipment like LB & some of these guys from Texas.
Personally I don`t think the "poaching deer" argument holds any water at all, poachers are poachers & typically ANY law one way or the other has no bearing with them at all.
If I may ask, why the dates? is it to do with deer season? again...I don`t think poachers care much about seasons & the like....who knows though maybe this new generation of poachers are somewhat ethical in their criminal activities.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Best of luck to ya, although I`d try for year round & from a vehicle.......gotta think positive.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted October 16, 2007 01:46 AM
I have very little experience calling at night, but do have one thought on the subject.
If you allow law abiding hunters into the field at night don't you increase the number of eyes, ears, & cell phones to report poachers??
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8236 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 16, 2007 04:31 AM
JD,
The dates is because we anticipate a lot of resistance from the Law Enforcement Division of KDWP. During this period, or one approximating that time period, most of our deer should have shed already, thus eliminating the concern of poaching for racks. KDWP has pretty good numbers on actual mean shed dates to allow them to manage a late antlerless only season in Kansas and we figure we'd use that information to determine a start point. This period also coincides with the breeding and pre-denning period which would support arguments for this season as a means of helping to preventatively manage coyote numbers in high-number areas, but still allow callers in the field when the fur is somewhat salvageable.
Kokopelli,
Excellent point. Thanks.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted October 16, 2007 06:12 AM
Lance,
That's a pretty open ended pair of questions that you raised.
Numbers will vary from place to place and year to year. That makes it hard to give anyone real hard numbers. The best thing that you can do, is to get out and call various stands in the daylight. Then go back and make those same stands at night with a light and no gun, just counting eyeballs. Have other hunters in various parts of the State do the same thing, then go in with written numbers to support your claims.
Be prepared for arguments against it from both deer hunting organizations and Game Wardens. Who will claim that it will not only increase the number of deer poached, but upset the deer and change their habits and make it harder for the Wardens to capture the true poachers. Kokopelli just gave you a good statement that will help when confronted in meetings by those opposed to it due to poaching concerns. You might also check with the Game Departments in States like Texas, Nevada and New Mexico who all allow night hunting, ask them how many square miles their average Warden covers and compare that for your State. Kansas more than likely has a much higher density of Wardens. If those States don't have problems with less density of law enforcement, why would Kansas?
I wouldn't start out asking for just a small season, hit them at first for night hunting during all of the open season, that way you can have a "Concession" to make later to the deer hunting groups who might be opposed. If you hit them right, they may go from opposition to support.
One of the best things that you can do is to hire a well known and liked outdoor lobbyist. They are expensive, but worth every penny.
quote:
but seriously questions whether or not coyotes will be that much easier to call once they've survived a night hunt.
Hell yes! Coyotes get almost Bobcat stupid at night. They don't know that their eyes are little reflectors and seem to believe that since it is dark, they are invisible. If you educate one, just hit him from a new angle with a different sound.
[ October 16, 2007, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted October 16, 2007 01:35 PM
Excellent post Tim!
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 16, 2007 02:54 PM
Well Lance,
As you might expect, I have a few opinions related to the issue.
In a bit.
In the meantime, I am very interested in learning what the membership believes.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted October 16, 2007 03:49 PM
I would have to do some research, but I don't think you can spotlight any animals in Kansas at night, with the exception of a treed raccoon. The state views that as harassment of game animals.
I work part time for KDWP (not as a warden) at Cheney Lake, I know several of the Rangers hunt coyotes, and would enjoy nighthunting themselves. I've even talked to them about it. Most of the Rangers around here don't go out at night looking for poachers unless there is a complaint from a specific area.
Lance, I like the idea of night hunting with artificial light. I have a friend who happens to be our local State Senator, I could talk to him to see if he could help. I also know alot of the top people from this area involved in KDWP. If you want help from this direction, get me some information I'll see what I can do.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 16, 2007 04:58 PM
Thanks Big O. I'll yell if we need it.
Tim, good insight, but the question he posed to me was not so much how coyotes here would react, but rather, how the existence of night hunting in areas has impacted the success rates for hunters over time. I would guess that success rates are very dynamic in all areas where night calling is allowed, even from day to day, month to month, year to year. But, they don't want or need that much detail. His statement was very general and I suspect a reply of the same type would serve the purposes here as well. As far as deer groups complaining, I've listened to these guys complain for the past five years about the number of coyotes they encounter when hunting. In much of the state, shoot a deer in the evening and fail to recover it and you'll have nothing but bones when you get there next morning. I've even seen guys post personal accounts of shooting their deer, waiting a half-hour to track it down and when they do, they have to run a pack of coyotes off of it already.
They are slated to have a discussion in the near future with the commissioners, and night hunting for coyotes is one topic that was already scheduled to be addressed. What information I gather here and elsewhere will only be supporting evidence behind providing a season for us.
Another question - in those areas where night hunting is allowed, does anyone know the impact on deer poaching?
Thanks for the input, guys. Keep it coming.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted October 16, 2007 06:45 PM
Contact the NE. game & parks commission, lots of coon hunters with spot lights around here, a hell of a lot more than coyote hunters, they ought to be able to tell you something with a little scientific credibility concerning any increase in poaching.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 17, 2007 10:39 AM
quote:
I need you creatures of the night to help me out here, guys.
I'm currently in the early stages of undertaking a project to seek regulatory and statutory changes in how coyotes can be hunted in Kansas by asking for a new rule that allows coyotes to be called at night with the use of artificial light. At present, we cannot use fake light of any kind.
Under our current proposal, we're hoping that we can get our state wildlife agency's commission, or the state legislature, to create a provision that would allow us a season for hunting coyotes at night, from 1-1 to 3-31 each year, with artificial light as long as the hunter, caller and light are all separated from the vehicle.
We've established these dates and the vehicle separation points as a means of getting around the concerns we expect about poaching our beloved deer. (I know... Texas doesn't worry about poaching and gets along fine.)
Anyway, here's where I need input from respected, objective callers with a lot of experience. I'm trying to enlist the support of our furbearer biologist and he's somewhat on board, but seriously questions whether or not coyotes will be that much easier to call once they've survived a night hunt.
In short, are coyotes in areas where night hunting has been done for years still easier to call at night than they are in the daytime? Are there significant differences in calling success at night compared to day where night hunting is allowed?
Please know that I will be forwarding a link to this thread to our biologist and your comments may be used in support of this effort.
Thanks
Okay, first of all, the regulation wonks will come up with their half baked reasons for seasons, and provisions without guidance or logical input from people that are versed on the subject. So, good luck, Lance. It is always easier, (and safer) to just say NO.
I would not limit your proposal to the first three months of the year, nor would I suggest that the lights used be unattached to a vehicle, of a low voltage, or not be attached to the firearm. The issue is hunting predators at night, NOT doing it with one hand tied behind your back as an intelectual exercise. Why fall into the trap? There are no valid reasons for the rules, if we understand that these animals are not large game and not small game, but (in fact) NON game. If some states choose to clasify them as furbearers and therefore regulate them, you have lost half of your battle right there.
So, in my opinion, decriminalizing predator hunting at night is not a license to poach deer, no more than selling a 300 horsepower vehicle is a license to drive 100 miles per hour. Law should not "allow" certain activities. Law should restrict certain specific activities, and should be supported by facts.
Hunting at night is much safer than hunting during daylight hours. You can take my word for it or not, but I can see houses and vehicles and roads and many things with the aid of a light, that I might not notice, during daylight. Some people are going to question that opinion without knowledge, which means that they are more comfortable with their ignorance than the considered opinion of a long time practioner; without an axe to grind, in this case.
Lance, this is where your question gets a little stupid!
"....seriously questions whether or not coyotes will be that much easier to call once they've survived a night hunt."
First of all, you know that you can call a coyote from a different location an hour after he is shot at. All it takes is a different set of circumstances, and (of course) you will not ever have a guarantee. There are smart coyotes and stupid coyotes, and that's the way it is.
I can tell you this much, having hunted coyotes at night since 1968, or so? I can hunt the same area at night and come back in the morning and it's a whole new world. In fact, where coyotes are hammered by dog hunters or road hunters during the day, they can be successfully hunted at night, in those same areas. The reverse is true.
Hunting coyotes at night is not going to "ruin" day hunting. I could take a cheap shot and suggest that you kill the animal, rather than educate them, but, I won't. Hunting them at night should not affect day hunting, unless and until you kill every last one in the county.
What will cause a problem is road hunters waving a light around. But, that is specific to night hunting. I do not believe that distress sounds associated with that sorry activity will make a coyote uncallable, on a day stand. Again, I have proved it to my own satisfaction by watching Utah road hunters drive by (on the pavement) with their spotlights, and maxed volume; and still called a coyote or two after they went on down the road.
The short answer is, it is not a valid concern. It's pure speculation without any data to back it up.
On to the next question. Coyotes are never easy, but I can say this: if you know what you are doing, you will kill probably twice as many animals at night than on daylight stands....but not with all the phoney regulations that some authority can dream up to hog tie the hunter. And, remember, this is not a "resource" animal. It's vermin with some potential for economic value, which is the other side of the coin as opposed to pure sport.
I do not know if night hunting will subtract the success rate of daylight stands? It seems logical, that if you kill a few animals at night, there will be a few less to call in the daytime? That should be obvious, and amounts to a circular argument. Are we protecting the resource, or are we controlling the species they affect? What's the policy? Do we kill coyotes and protect livestock and game bird populations? Or, do we regulate coyotes as a game animal? That's a controversial subject, and the answer seems to be, in most of the western United States; we want to control them. So, we need to put this in the proper perspective.
Night hunting is extremely specialized. It takes special equipment. It will never be as popular as day hunting. In my opinin, it is very exciting. Consider this. Just calling a coyote in the daytime is a wonder. Calling a coyote, at night using a light, is twice the wonder. Is it so easy that anybody can do it? Hardly. Should it be legal? I can't see a good reason that it shouldn't be? It has been legal in other states for many years, and (as mentioned) it does not seem to cause an increase in poaching.
Poachers probably come in two sizes. The professional, and the much more common, amatuer. So, what is the motivation? They are meat or trophy hunters. Will a law that allows night hunting of coyotes cause an increase in illegal killing of stock or game animals? There is no evidence to suggest that assumption, that I am aware of? I have hunted in many western states for many years. I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen evidence of poaching, while night hunting. And, believe me, this amounts to a lot more time in the field than the average game warden.
Night hunters conduct themselves in a professional manor. The one's I know. They are not Yahoos or cowboys and not criminals, either. I say, give them a chance. If they need regulation, finetune it to suit the circumstances, but provide justification. The laws should not be arbitrary, or they may not be respected.
And, that's the way I feel about it. Hope you find some value.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 17, 2007 04:46 PM
Value? Hell yes. I'm sitting here laughing like a fool thinking how nice it would be to be able to sit you down in front of our Commissioners when this subject is debated and introduce you as, "my curmudgeony friend, Leonard B from California, who is here to enlighten you about a few things.
For the record, the part of my post that you attributed to me as getting stupid came from the following paragraph from our furbearer biologist in response to my initial correspondence with him (bear in mind that we've never allowed night hunting here, have been a victim of all the same misguided misinformation you cite, and are all forging our way in somewhat uncharted territory. I'm just glad that he's willing to walk this walk with me.)...
As for the effectiveness, often new techniques are effective, but then once coyotes have survived a night hunt, there's no reason to believe they won't be more wary at night as well. (robo duck is an example of something that was very effective at first, and while it remains effective, many ducks have now seen it and survived, and its not as effective as it once was.) Is night calling that much more effective in states that have had it for a while? I know its effective, but is it really more effective?
Understand that his knowledge is of a general nature and he has been a very good ally of trappers and furharvesters in Kansas. He's a good listener and I'm pretty certain that he'll read your comments with interest and gladly offer them as the words of a sage old grandmaster of the night calling fraternity.
I appreciate your comments, Leonard, and do believe that you pretty much summed it up.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted October 17, 2007 05:42 PM
Lance, see if your state's dept. can contact the IL. Conservation Dept. They have recent experience with changing the rules to allow night hunting and may have some input on its' outcome. The rules changed there in 1999. Temper their answer with a bit of prudence, they are not exactly a top-notch dept.
My take:
1.) Do not over-estimate the impact of night hunting. Very few hunters have the "gumption" to take advantage of it. Cold hard fact.
2.) It is a cop-out to lean on the increased poaching opportunities line. If people wanna illegally eat deer they're gonna illegally eat deer. Period. Same-same for stealing a rack. Legalized nighttime predator hunting is not relevant.
3.) As far as effectiveness goes I think calling at night is way more effective, particularly when it comes to killing seasoned adult animals. Just my opinion, I hunt for entertainment so I have no numbers to back that thought, keeping a book is not my idea of fun.
4.) Forget self-imposing the season and methods limits. I suspect that current deer laws have already imposed restrictions on rifles and coyotes during the deer season in your state. As Tim mentioned above, give yourself some bargaining room.
Good luck and I certainly hope you get it legalized. I suspect that there will be a small group of serious hunters that will benefit and take advantage of the rules. For the rest, this will sail right over their heads.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted October 17, 2007 05:49 PM
We have some of the most screwed up laws, for night hunting, anywhere.
I can tell you that it makes night hunting less appealing, to have to run unattached, and away from your vehicle.
We have night hunting that runs concurrent with some big game seasons (bear and cougar), but is closed during other big game seasons (modern firearm deer and elk), and it is only legal during established bobcat and raccoon seasons.
When the orange army is in the woods, trying to pick their way to and from their stands in the dark, is not a good time for night hunting.
I don't know why they differentiate the modern rifle guys from the rest of the orange army, if safety is the issue. It would be just as unsafe to night hunt with the orange wearing muzzle loaders, and is even more unsafe with the camo-clad bow hunters.
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted October 17, 2007 06:14 PM
Tim B - are you sure you can night hunt in New Mexico??
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 17, 2007 07:02 PM
Kelly,
NM does allow some night hunting, but there are restrictions I'm not certain about.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted October 18, 2007 09:37 AM
" coyotes easier or more effective at night"
In Ca. we can't shoot from or upon a motor vehicle and you can't shine from a roadway. The shoulder is the roadway. Dirt two track or paved or graded dirt, same-same. So now we have to pull off the shoulder but we can't break the brush or we are breaking federal laws. This in itself cut's out high powered spotlights plugged into the truck. What good is it to shine frome the truck if you can't shoot from it. In Texas or similar it is more effective to hunt predators at night but with constraints like we have here no way is it more productive than daytime. Allows the avg. working Joe more hunting time and adds a tool for harvesting fur and or doing control work.
Point is go for everything you can get and work down from there. It is safe and more effective to shoot from a solid platform with the aid of a strong plug in light. I have never been to Ks but am guessing it does not lend itself to remote nighttime stands. Brush, trees, agriculture, flat in places.
Open night hunting puts wardons in the hills at night and increases the odds of a deer poacher getting caught. Deer poachers will know this and may curtail their activities.
Be prepared for an argument from your wildlife dept. on the fiscal impacts of adding a season to their plate.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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Lungbuster
Knows what it's all about
Member # 630
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posted October 19, 2007 08:04 AM
I have never hunted out of a truck at night so my opinion doesn't have alot of merit, but I have hunted at night detached from a vehicle for 15 years. It seems to me that walking into an area instead of driveing in would increase your success, less noise,etc.
Maybe someone who has done both can comment?
CDog, dont mean to rob your thread, just wondering.... And I agree with everyone else, more effective at night.
Posts: 225 | From: Idaho | Registered: Mar 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 19, 2007 09:40 AM
Well, that part isn't true, Lungbuster. Driving on any sort of two track road in a vehicle is a lot less obtrusive than walking around in the woods, at night. Then you wait a few minutes for things to settle down and it is not TOO uncommon to see an animal right away, fairly close, that has not been disturbed.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted October 19, 2007 12:54 PM
Deer, coyotes and others are less scared of a vehicle than someone on foot in most cases at least in my experience.
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted October 19, 2007 02:49 PM
Even in Kansas? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Buker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 134
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posted October 23, 2007 08:22 AM
I know I'm not real welcome here but...
Lance, give me a call later this week at 218-338-HUNT (4868).
I lead the charge here in Minnesota to get the light law changed. I have some materials you could use and I know what worked for me to make the change.
Randy
(back to lurker status.)
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Hunting the Red Fox
www.geocities.com/foxhunter_56308
Posts: 158 | From: Parkers Prairie, MN | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 23, 2007 10:56 AM
Wrong, Randy.
I'd like to see you participate as much as it suits you. Nothing worse than reading something and being hesitant with a germaine comment, or two. Some of us are just not made, to lurk.
At one time, seventeen caliber stories used to drive me nuts; now I just smile.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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