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Author
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Topic: Lions killing introduced sheep in AZ
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 18, 2014 04:46 PM
This is another stupid idea, similar to the introduction of wolves to Yellowstone when there is scant evidence that wolves were ever there, in the first place. But, they say so and how do you prove otherwise? Same issue with Mexican and Red Wolves into eastern Arizona. Why do we need this?
But, everybody with a opinion is considered an expert. Read about the guy that brings up the controlled birth of lions, which he must have read somewhere, and HEY, sounds logical.
But, I can talk about Bighorn relocation efforts in the Sierra's and the local San Gabriel and San Bernardino Mountains. Those efforts have proved to everybody except Fish and Game that all they are doing is feeding lazy lions with expensive sheep.
I could go on, such as the reintroduction of California Condors, but in this case to areas where they NEVER HAVE OCCURRED. Such as Baja Mexico and the Grand canyon area, bill footed by California taxpayers. And, these stupid animals have lost the evolution sweepstakes except for massive money and effort. Yet some people seriously think we should modify all high voltage wires so they are further apart and the birds can't touch two conductors with their ten foot wingspan. Oh, did I mention banning lead ammunition in the whole state? Well don't get me started! Read on~
Deaths of bighorn sheep in Arizona spark controversy over conservation effort
By Cristina Corbin
Published March 18, 2014FoxNews.com
The first phase of a three-year plan by Arizona wildlife officials to bolster herds of bighorn sheep has resulted in the death of half the population, after the 31 sheep were transplanted at a cost of $150,000 into the Catalina Mountains where mountain lions killed 15 of the protected species within a few months.
Some animal welfare groups are pushing for an end to the project, but wildlife officials say the conservation effort is not a failure and expect the projected $600,000, three-year plan to result in greater numbers of bighorns in an area where they once co-existed with mountain lions for centuries.
The issue, say Arizona wildlife officials and biologists, is a complex one.
Bighorn sheep, a gregarious, herd-forming species, once thrived in large numbers across the western U.S. until their population dropped dramatically over the past 100 years -- for reasons biologists continue to study, such as disease, fires or loss of water source. Wildlife officials in Arizona estimate the current count to be around 6,000 in the state, and they are working with conservationists to rebuild a herd that disappeared from the Tucson range in the 1990s.
Last November, the Arizona Game and Fish Department implemented the first phase of a three-year plan to transplant the creatures from the Yuma area into the Catalinas, where they once lived. Wildlife officials in the state said they spent $150,000 -- none of which was taxpayer money -- to catch 31 bighorns by helicopter, place satellite transmitter collars on them and transport the herd to the Santa Catalina Mountains just north of Tucson.
Four months later, 15 of the bighorns had been killed by mountain lions that thrive in the area -- leaving some animal welfare advocates to question whether such a plan was prudent on the part of an independent panel formed by state wildlife officials.
The Catalina Bighorn Advisory Committee -- comprised of groups such as the Arizona Desert Bighorn Sheep Society, the Wilderness Society and the Center for Biological Diversity — had recommended that officials not kill any mountain lions prior to the transplant of bighorns.
After nearly half the bighorn herd was killed, state wildlife officials in turn killed two mountain lions -- leading to protests by individuals who claimed the big cats should not be targeted for acting as natural predators in the wild.
An editorial published last December in the Arizona Republic posed a question at the heart of the controversy: "Re-creating a bighorn population in the Catalina Mountains is a good goal that may result in the loss of some individual animals. How many are too many? When does the project cross the line from ambitious and worthy to sacrificial and cruel?"
The Arizona Game and Fish Department and its supporters stand by the transplant decision, although Jim Paxon, special assistant to director Larry Voyles, said "in hindsight, we should have taken out some mountain lions."
"Conservation of wildlife is never easy, never quick and is often what biology professors call messy," Paxon told FoxNews.com. He said the plan moving forward is to assess areas in the Catalinas where the bighorns have the greatest chance of survival and place additional sheep there in the fall. He said the hope is that the remaining bighorn transplants and their lambs will move toward the new herd. Paxon also said some mountain lions near the determined location will be killed, but stressed that officials are not planning a "wholesale removal of mountain lions across the Catalinas."
"All we’re doing is removing mountain lions that prey on bighorn sheep in the best habitat area for those sheep," he said, adding that the mountain lion population is "not only healthy, it's thriving and expanding."
Critics, however, say the current plan should be stopped immediately.
"I don’t think that they really thought this out," said Ricardo Small, of the group Friends of Wild Animals, adding that, "this decision was pushed by hunters."
"The response to mountain lion killings of bighorn sheep has been to kill the mountain lions. That's a mistake," Small said. "When competition among mountain lions is removed, the litter sizes of the females increase and the result is more mountain lions than were there to begin with."
"I think that the Arizona Game and Fish Department should stop this program completely. It's a waste of bighorn sheep and a waste of mountain lion."
But supporters of the group claim it's premature to abandon efforts to rebuild a population that once thrived in the Catalinas.
Kevin Murphy, conservation director of the Wild Sheep Foundation, called the bighorn deaths "frustrating," but said he was fully supportive of the plan in place. He also noted that the transplanted herd successfully birthed lambs and said more are expected in the coming months.
"Wildlife management is not a perfect exact science," Murphy told FoxNews.com. "You can't measure the success yet. It’s designed to be a three-phase release."
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted March 18, 2014 05:44 PM
This topic hits home.. Seriously the Catalina mountains are just 5 minutes away from my house..
The herd got destroyed last time by mountain loins.. Apparently, the lions wait for them to travel a route for water..
Why would they expect a different outcome this time? Dumb asses..
Especially with a lot of mountain lion activity at almost every major hiking trail!
[ March 18, 2014, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 18, 2014 07:35 PM
Yeah, I know the area, myself.
Here's the actual problem. There are way too few locations where the sheep can get water and the lions have them all covered. And, the wildlife people have some kind of ignorant objection to guzzlers, they are artificial. Duh.
A bunch of Einsteins, "in hindsight, we should have killed a few lions". Yeah right, since it has not worked anywhere else! This is established, introduce sheep and the fucking protected lions eat them!
If they would return lions to a predator status, where it belongs, then the balance might return, but too many opportunities to kill a lion are not taken because the human lacks a $150 tag, or in the case of California, they are totally protected! And, that's insane!
Oh well.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted March 19, 2014 04:10 AM
Free buffet!
Come & get it!!!
GOT IT... 
Thanks for dinner, Californistan ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted March 19, 2014 05:53 AM
Probably some "save the lion" group down there that is just tickled pink, knowing that fresh food sources are being hauled in to, well, ....feed the starving lions. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Been many years ago, but the whackos here in Colo. did an expensive lynx re-introduction and a high percentage of the lynx died in the first year because,..... wait for it..........do to starvation because of lack of food sources in the area where they were relocated.
It was also found that some nut job that had claimed to have found lynx fur in Colo. before the relocation program was put in place, had actually planted the fur. More proof that there are no lack of nut jobs in the "save the animals" community, that will break all kind of laws and do their best to deceive, in order to push an agenda.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted March 19, 2014 02:53 PM
Teach me some techniques and I'll take one for the team. ;-)
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted March 19, 2014 03:00 PM
AZ resident lion tag: $15. And without looking it up, I'm betting that area is a multiple bag unit/s, which means that a filled tag can be replaced for another $15 until a quota is met. Since those lions are all lounging around the water sources waiting for an unsuspecting thirsty sheep, seems like some Tucson callers would get out there and fix this debacle before G&F spends money on pros to take care of it.
We could ask CA callers to help out, but IIRC, it's illegal to possess any part of a lion there. Where's the fun if all you get to keep is a photo or two?
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 19, 2014 03:24 PM
Somebody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we go thru this same cluster fuk a decade or two ago in the KOFA Mts ????
Seems like I remember Gerry Blair writing something about a $100,000 lion or something to that effect.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 19, 2014 03:35 PM
Jimanez, I was speaking of the non-res. tag. I am not advocating this, but have heard through the grapevine that game wardens suggest shooting any lion you have a chance to kill and then go get the tag. They are concerned about the population explosion in The People's Republik of Kalifornia due to total protection, and it could happen in AZ just as easily.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted March 19, 2014 04:31 PM
LOL, don't worry, plenty of lions here meet their demise just like that, grapevine or not. Not enough, mind you.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted March 21, 2014 06:18 AM
LOL!!!
What is the definition of insanity?
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result!
KOKO,
Yes they did this over in the Harcuvar Mtns several years ago. Same result and actually the same comment from G&F.
"Should have taken out a few lions first I guess"!
They lost ALL their sheep on that one.
Same thing will happen here too. Just a matter of time.
Too many lions.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 21, 2014 07:03 AM
Too many lions isn't the problem though. It's introducing sheep to a hostile environment full of hungry lions. It's funny and almost tragic. Too many people in a position to make policy have a distorted DISNEY WORLD VIEW ! "Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had sheep on all those mountains?"
Spend taxpayers dollars on introductions that have no chance of success! Where do they get these people? That's the herd that needs thinning! Too many "Preservationists" and not enough CONSERVATIONISTS ! They're all Liberals and therefore mentally ill, will never learn, unfortunately. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I remember when AZ had a friggin' BOUNTY on lions, funded by the Cattlemen's and Wool Growers Association. Actually, that's when the situation began to change.
[ March 21, 2014, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted March 21, 2014 07:54 AM
I think I read that an AZ non resident lion tag is $75 over the counter.
Doesn't seem too bad.
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Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
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Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 21, 2014 08:48 AM
No, not too bad? Either my memory has gone to shit or maybe they have changed the fee for a non res tag? I clearly remember it being $150 which is why I didn't buy it when I clearly needed one. (just kidding)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: you can't bring any parts back into CA anyway.
[ March 21, 2014, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 21, 2014 02:20 PM
Steve;
Thank you,
It's good to know that my Mark 1 Memory Unit in the Brain Housing Group still somewhat functions. I have my doubts, sometimes.
Those who forget history............yadda, yadda.
It never ceases to amaze that Biologists / Scientists opinions are Omnipotent, yet any country boy that has enough common sense to fart downwind isn't `bona-fide` even though he can clearly see the problem and the solution.
Maybe the Cattleman's Assoc. could offer to reimburse the cost of filled lion tags. Help drive PETA nuts, too. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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