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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on August 19, 2012, 11:30 AM:
Not to offend anyone here. After watching the video in the link I would be interested to hear your thoughts.
http://gothamist.com/2012/08/14/graphic_video_dog_shot_in_east_vill.php
[ August 19, 2012, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 19, 2012, 02:12 PM:
From what i saw the dog was doing what dogs do and protect its owner. Sure the guy needed help but I think the trigger happy cops could of handled it differently.. Most big cities have some type of animal control that could of been called and they could of caught the dog with a catch pole or just throw a jacket over it...
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 19, 2012, 04:25 PM:
...............and if the guy had died while the cops were waiting for animal control to show up, the cops would have taken much grief for not yadda yadda...
It's a no win for the cops. Even more so with it being filmed.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 19, 2012, 05:38 PM:
That dog was dangerous and shouldn't have been allowed in the city, in the first place. Yeah, I would have shot it, if I had a gun, but a kick in the teeth would probably stop the aggression.
All the bleeding hearts standing around were worried about the dog but how are you supposed to give aid to the unconscious man laying on the street if the dog is willing and eager to bite anybody that approaches the man?
I don't like aggressive dogs, period. Cull them.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 19, 2012, 06:50 PM:
This might suprise some because i am a "good dog" lover. But i can't see where the cops did anything wrong. They tried to assist the guy on the ground who was in obvious danger from an unknown health issue, who had a dog WITHOUT a muzzle in public??????. And the cops are getting cussed by bystanders for shooting "something" that posed a danger to EVERYONE there. Sometimes even a cop(s) deserve a break.
Had i been involved (as a bystander) i would have left before i got bit.
I have an appx 130+ lb Rott, that prettymuch has free rein here at home. Enter unannounced you will regret coming here. Give me a headsup and you might hear him bark, but leave him alone and alls fine. About 75% of the time when i'm gone, ole Junior is in the house "doing his thing". If someone has bad on their mind go ahead, kick the door in or break a window .....
The dogs OWNER's piss poor judgement got mans best friend shot, because the owner was a dumbass.
BLAME THE IDIOT OWNER for getting the dog shot.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 19, 2012, 08:13 PM:
Better look at the vid. again.. I watched 4 minutes of it and the cops did nothing to assist the guy.. They shot the dog then watched over it for a minute and then just walked around while the dead dog and its owner just layed there..
Think they could of least checked to see if he was breathing...Don't cops have to at least take a basic first aid course..Geesh!!
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 19, 2012, 08:48 PM:
Correct Tim but..... they were prob afraid of what would ooooze out of the legs and beltlines of their pants. What is also amazing is after the shot not any of the bystanders offered the guy any help either. Maybe 4949 can offer info about "when a shot has been fired", and what the followup is? He (dogs owner) will prob face charges for endangerment & ????
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on August 19, 2012, 08:52 PM:
The dog went after the lady and than the cop. The cops did what they had to do to stop the problem. That was a no win situation either way, but shooting the dog was the best choice.
Good grief, by the sounds of that screaming lady in the background you would have thought they shot an innocent person.
As a side note, in our quiet little city here, there have been three pitbulls shot over the past 2 months because they attacked people. In two cases cops shot pits when called to a scene of a pit attacking people. In the latest case a guy walking with his wife was attacked and he had a concealed carry permit and used his pistol to kill the attacking dog.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on August 20, 2012, 01:37 AM:
lots of big city Liberal emotions in that clip.
buy that cop some doughnuts... good shot!
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 20, 2012, 05:03 AM:
Ok,............ I just carefully watched that clip again and here are my thoughts.
(1) I own a pit bull. If she had or ever does exhibit that behaviour in public I would shoot her myself. It's the unpleasant part of being a responsible grown-up dog owner. (Note; Someone coming into my gated backyard when I'm not around......different circumstances)
(2) Nice shot. Fast moving close shots ain't as easy as they look.
(3) Terminal ballistics; WTF?? The dog went down but for that being the weapon/ammo the cops use to defend themselves against drug crazed wackos they might want to look up the term `double tap`.
(4) At 4:20 in the clip, I believe that was Stan Lee of Marvel Comics who walked by. Probably wasn't, but it sure looked like him.
(5) Listening to the comments in the background. People are stupid. Not much doubt if it's a red or a blue voting area. If obama had a dog it would look like..........
(6) And last but not least; `IF` that dog had gotten into the officer and bit him up; How much would that have cost me the taxpayer??? Medical bills, rehab, time off work, overtime for another officer to replace him, paperwork, etc. etc.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on August 20, 2012, 05:56 AM:
Why is this about the fu----g dog what a bout the poor bastard laying in the street!
I love dogs , good dogs. I love people better.
Most people.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 20, 2012, 11:00 AM:
well...
if that were me having a seizure on the ground, my dog p[rolly woulda been shot too. He is waaaaay protective of me and I FRIGGIN' LOVE THAT ABOUT HIM. But since he isn't a "pitbull", maybe they'd have only maced him??? Can't help but think that...
Obvously, the dog 'bluff charged' the lady on the sidewalk & didn't bite, so why did the cops feel threatened?
What woulda happened if that lady pulled out a .380 and dusted the dog? Would THAT be OK?
Of the dogs I've been around that will bite a human, there ain't much barking when they come for real. Barking is a threat, same as a bluff charge to maintain distance...
What if that unfortunate man's dog were a loyal & protective collie/lab / or crossbred mutt?
Would the cops still have shot first & asked questions later?
What would you have done, Nick?
supposin' if you had a medicial issue & dropped to the dirt, do you think your dobie would stand guard over you?
How bout you, Leonard?
Would that poodle you had as a kid stand up to protect you from what that dog deemed a "threat"?
I ask, keeping within the context of the video. IE, it's pretty obvious that the dog can sense that something is wrong with daddy and its protective instincts are in hyperdrive.
IMHO, that is not an "attack" scenario at all.
If that were my dog, I'd be PROUD OF HIM.
To you guys who think that the dog behavior displayed in the video is bad, or vicious, you need to get rid of them cats cuz they makin' you silly...
[ August 20, 2012, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2012, 11:47 AM:
Fred, my parents owned a poodle long after I moved out and joined the Army, I never had a poodle, as a kid. Their fucking poodle used to nip my kids regularly.
Where were we? Okay, a "bluff charge" results in a Mexican Standoff? How is EMT or anybody supposed to help the guy passed out if his fucking dog is bluff charging everybody that wants to help?
I don't see the overly protective actions of the dog to be a positive thing. I mean, really? If you were having a seizure on the sidewalk, swallowed your tongue or something, would you be "loving that about him"?
In the first place, I absolutely do not agree with a dog on city streets, out in the public that is going to bluff charge everybody or threaten or growl at people. People don't like that shit in a dog. Man's best friend is supposed to be (if not friendly) at least not aggressive in casual contact with humans on a sidewalk. If somebody trains their dog to be aggressive and threaten people, there is something wrong with the owner...IN MY OPINION.
Yeah, if the dog prevents people from approaching and giving aid to someone unconscious on a public sidewalk, then deal with the dog any way you have to because it is an obstruction and hardly doing an admirable job of protecting the owner.
(and I am a dog lover)
Good hunting. LB
[ August 20, 2012, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 20, 2012, 01:20 PM:
Sorry for the confusion about the poodle in your past, Leonard. That was my mistake...
I'm sure you can see that the point I was trying to make was that the "pitbull" that caught a bullet wasn't necessarily acting out in an overly aggressive manner. Lots & lots of dogs would prolly respond very similarly in that freak & unfortunate situation...
As for a "mexican standoff" scenario? Easy...MACE THE DOG. Heck, tee off with the baton if ya hafta!!! But the cops escalated right to gunfire, and on a busy city street, no less?
I will submit that IF the dog was going completely apeshit & had already latched onto someone, then I could see grounds for gunfire ot subdue a dog gone looney. But, c'mon...really? The dog is maintaining a barrier of protection from its master...GOOD DOG!
Watch the video again. As Tim accurately pointed out (GULP), nobody was rushing to the aid of the downed human afterward. And its not like the paramedics were on scene waiting to attend to the victim, with the dog keeping them at bay. Several minutes go by and the poor guy is still unattended to.
That said, the dog was doomed from the get-go, and especially so for being a blocky headed "pitbull" type dog. Caught in that position, any dog worth its salt would do the very same for its master. Or, at least many would like to think so?
Very sad deal for all involved...the seizure victim, the dog, the cops & everyone else. So goes Life. Shit happens...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2012, 02:37 PM:
I will grant you the baton option could have been employed.
I have no tolerance for aggressive dogs and if they look like a pit bull, even less tolerance. I could maybe see the dog holding his ground and growling but not that bluff charge bullshit.
I'm like Lance, forbid those dogs within the city limits. If somebody wants to train their pit bull to rip the throat out of anybody that wanders near their castle and is okay with the law suit, then fine. As long as the dog is destroyed without a bunch of lame excuses.
The world would be a better place if we could exterminate all pit bulls.
Good hunting. LB
[ August 20, 2012, 02:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on August 20, 2012, 03:31 PM:
quote:
Ok,............ I just carefully watched that clip again and here are my thoughts.
(1) I own a pit bull. If she had or ever does exhibit that behaviour in public I would shoot her myself. It's the unpleasant part of being a responsible grown-up dog owner. (Note; Someone coming into my gated backyard when I'm not around......different circumstances)
(2) Nice shot. Fast moving close shots ain't as easy as they look.
(3) Terminal ballistics; WTF?? The dog went down but for that being the weapon/ammo the cops use to defend themselves against drug crazed wackos they might want to look up the term `double tap`.
(4) At 4:20 in the clip, I believe that was Stan Lee of Marvel Comics who walked by. Probably wasn't, but it sure looked like him.
(5) Listening to the comments in the background. People are stupid. Not much doubt if it's a red or a blue voting area. If obama had a dog it would look like..........
(6) And last but not least; `IF` that dog had gotten into the officer and bit him up; How much would that have cost me the taxpayer??? Medical bills, rehab, time off work, overtime for another officer to replace him, paperwork, etc. etc.
Damn good post Kokopelli
I think people forget it's an animal with an 8-10 year average life span.
BTW what are you guys thoughts on shooting neighboring dogs that cross into your deer hunting lease.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 20, 2012, 03:53 PM:
The shooting of that dog was justified. While reading some of the above responses, I was reminded that the Police often must make a decision in a split second. Those who judge the Officer get to have all of the time they want to decide if that Officer did the right thing or not.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 20, 2012, 04:13 PM:
Right.
Skip over the two non lethal options at the ready, neither of which endanger innocents on a busy city street, and bust a cap in that useless mutt.
Good Police work there ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
And before you go spewing that "you don't walk in their shoes" crap, I'd bet a dollar to a donut that darn near every cop walkin' a beat in NYC already has his mind made up about how to deal with a "pitbull" encounter.
In fact, I've heard from more than a few cops about how they'd react to such an encounter, and you just saw it play out on video.
Not that I blame them, they have a dangerous job. But pulleeezzzzz don't try to pass some shit off that those two cops didn't have other options at their disposal to exhaust before opening fire on a small, barely threatening animal on a crowded city street.
What if the cop missed the dog & skipped a 9mm into the crowd of people? What if someone struck by the bullet was a friend, or loved one?Would you be scrutinizing this situation differently, perhaps???
Obviously, the cop had the training to make a good shot on a difficult target. My question is...should the shot have even been taken? It's not like you die immediatetly from a dog bite, so did the dog even reflect an imminent, life threatening situation to the officers? Methinks: NO.
And BTW, my feelings would be the same if the dog were a mt. cur, cocker spaniel, GSD, or any breed...
[ August 20, 2012, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 20, 2012, 05:01 PM:
"Skip over the two non lethal options at the ready, neither of which endanger innocents on a busy city street, and bust a cap in that useless mutt.
Good Police work there [Frown]"
-----------------------------------
And you sir are exactly the type that I am talking about. Your mind was made up from the very start. Dang cops shot a poor unarmed dog. Shame on them.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 20, 2012, 05:24 PM:
I gotta agree with Fred for the most part...
Had they rushed in and attended to the guy, at least then their "reason" would have had some merit.
Didn't pay attention to what city this was in...but,
What if...it had just been a CCW carrying citizen trying to help?
Think he'd have been charged with reckless dishcharge (or something similar)?...I do.
It WAS a good shot, but wreckless nonetheless...
You know, it wasn't like they had to make a "split second" decision, (the way I see it). They came on the scene pretty well knowing what they were going to be up against.
Isn't that why they were there? Didn't someone call them or something concerned about the guy AND the dog?
Seems to me they could have come up with a better plan than,..."we'll walk up there and if the dog comes at us we'll just shoot 'em!!"
So,...what I'm saying is...poor police work.
If that was my family member laying there, and I needed to get in there,...I'd have shot it quicker than him!!
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on August 20, 2012, 06:01 PM:
quote:
Correct Tim but..... they were prob afraid of what would ooooze out of the legs and beltlines of their pants. What is also amazing is after the shot not any of the bystanders offered the guy any help either. Maybe 4949 can offer info about "when a shot has been fired", and what the followup is? He (dogs owner) will prob face charges for endangerment & ????
I don't think the owner will be charged with anything, even in NY City.
As Rich indicated, the police officers' primary responsibility is to make the scene safe for the public, and more importantly in this case, the responding medical personnel. As Leonard mentioned, you can't have a dog running around making charges, bluff or not, when a victim is being attended to. Speaking of bluff charges Fred, we have to remember that these cops most probably aren't dog experts like yourself. These guys couldn't tell the difference between a bluff charge and a real one. And I don't think they were willing to take the chance, nor could I blame them if I were in their shoes. To be honest, when I looked at the tape, I kind of thought the same as you, in that the dog wasn't serious about an attack. However...I hate to second guess when I am not present to take full advantage of all the indicators, sights, sounds, expressions, etc. I can't fault the officer for shooting. His job was to make the scene safe and that's what he accomplished, albeit with a risky but skillful shot.
So...what would I do Fred? I can't say. I may have had a little more dog experience than these two guys, thus I may have reacted differently. I think I told my cop and dog stories here before, but one time on a call I was approached by a couple nasty dogs. I gave one of them a flashlight to the face, and they left me but headed for one of my squadmates who was holding a Benelli. My squadmate could not react well enough and got bit. And I really don't think he wanted to start blasting that cannon with me being so close.
My Dobie Fred? I think maybe you were reading my mind. My dobie follows me all around the yard when I cut the lawn. He follows in my path when I clear the snow with the snowthrower. There is a very good chance that if I go down for some reason, this same situation could happen, and he could have to be shot in order to let the medics get to me. I agree with you, he would be a good dog and I would be proud of him for wanting to protect me. On the other hand, I would have to realize the responding officers might have to do the deed if they couldn't get close to me. My dog would cry just like the dog in the video if he were shot. It's heart breaking to dog lovers for sure.
As far as the officers not attending to the guy, most city cops aren't EMT trained. They call EMS and wait. In NYC EMS is usually not too far away. I do think they could have made an effort to check on the guy, though I think they were both a pushed into the next level of alarm from the shooting. They reacted tactically, like they were expecting fire from another direction. I am sure they have heard their fair share of gun fire in the city.
A tough situation to be in.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2012, 07:42 PM:
Here I am, defending cops! They dispatched the ridiculous threat and that's a good thing. For the life of me, I don't know what they were supposed to do, offer a treat? Okay, maybe smack the dog or mace the dog....if they had it?
But, they get a gold star for taking out the friggin' dog, even if it was a bit rude. The status and well being of the animal was not of the slightest concern. I do admit that after the dog was down, they might have approached the victim and did an assessment of some kind. I would question that part.
But, this hand wringing over a stupid, aggressive dog I can't understand? If I was the cop on the street, I would have killed it twice, not a second thought, a good deed. I think cops dispatch aggressive dogs more than we might realize? I would not discourage them from doing whatever needed doing.
In the grand scheme of things, that dog had no worth and if they decided that shooting it was not safe, they should have beat it to death. Hey, I wonder how many people have been bitten by that bluff charge dog, in the past?
Good hunting.....and, I love dogs! El Bee
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on August 20, 2012, 08:09 PM:
I like Dogs.
I would have shot that dog.
I like dogs.
I would have gave it a mercy shot to stop the yelping.
I like dogs.
I would then turn and double tap the broad doing all the screaming.
Did I mention I like dogs.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 20, 2012, 09:34 PM:
Thanks for putting my thoughts in a brief concise statement, Randy. I really like dogs, but it offends me to see a dog display aggression towards humans. And, I like dogs but this one was asking for it, in my opinion.
Good hunting. (I love dogs) El Bee
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on August 20, 2012, 10:50 PM:
Why Thank you Leonard.
BTW, Did I mention I don't like Screaming Broads.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 20, 2012, 11:30 PM:
I think the guy was just drunk or stoned or maybe just fell unconsious after laughing at some of tims posts.....who cares......the dog attacked and they killed it, with a great amount of accuracy I might add, but I won't let the cops off that easy........if they were to do their job correctly and actually protect the public they would've turned around and shot that bleeding heart screaming liberal bitch too!! Just saying.....
I guess Randy already said that.....well, shoot her again, loud mouth liberal freaks piss me off.
[ August 20, 2012, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 21, 2012, 05:59 AM:
Firstly, I thought Walter Matthau was dead?
Bad deal all the way around. The dog needed to be dealt with, but I think the use of lethal force in that situation was extremely negligent. Far too many innocents standing around in every direction. How somebody didn't catch a ricochet is amazing. Do pitbulls cause cops to think shoot first and ask questions later? I think so. Would I fault the cop if the circumstances were different and the bystanders weren't put at risk? Not so much. The price you pay for having an aggressive dog, regardless of breed. How many forms of non-lethal force do you figure NYC cops pack around every day? Shoulda used one of them.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 21, 2012, 06:13 AM:
Yeah, I love dogs too. But that wouldn't stop me from shooting my own if I had to.
Nick, thanks for the reply. I'm certainly not a dog expert and don't think it takes an expert to see the dog was merely protecting its owner. Like I said, shitty deal all around and not the best decision making on the cop's part. Yes, that is easy for me to say...
But...watch the video again. Look at the cop on the right, HE MACES THE DOG AFTER IT WAS SHOT! Although his timing sucked, HE displayed better situational awareness for properly dealing with the perceived threat from the dog than did the cop who opened fire, in my opinion.
Randy, I know you are proud of your Akita dog & they tend to be very protective. If it was you having the seizure, do you think your dog would act any different to the one in the video?
And to take it a step further...does ANYONE here own a dog that would NOT protect them from a perceived threat?
Remember, the dog can't comprehend what a seizure is. All the dog knows is that something is wrong with daddy. Therefore, dog's protective instincts kick in & it stands guard to protect daddy from any further harm.
Is that behavior really so difficult to grasp & separate from outright aggression???
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 21, 2012, 07:03 AM:
We can sit here in our comfy homes and review the video 'til `we're picking the fly shit out of the pepper`. The fact is that the cop only had a couple of seconds to decide what to do. I'm guessing that he made the decision to fire when the animal first `bluff charged` the woman. When the animal came after him, that just confirmed his decision.
But, here's the important part; He made a decision to act and then did. He didn't panic & he didn't freeze up. Right or wrong, he did good in my opinion.
And as far as Mace goes;
I ride a bicycle for exercise & such. Naturally, I get chased by dogs now and then. Some time ago, I mixed up a vile concoction of Windex and skunk juice & put it in a squeeze bottle that let it out in a pretty healthy stream. The two dogs that I've used it on, {arm's length distance, full in the face} showed very little effect.
I should have known better.
A couple of years ago I watched a Deputy Sheriff Mace my neighbor's dog with little effect. We just thought it was because there was a bit of breeze that day. Unless we're talking a canister of bear spray, I'm not too impressed with the chemical defense route. (He ended up Tasering the dog)
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 21, 2012, 09:31 AM:
". The fact is that the cop only had a couple of seconds to decide what to do..."
This is the part I take issue with. If they had a call regarding the dog, they had a pretty good idea what they were getting into before they walked up.
I'm just going by the story that went along with the video.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 21, 2012, 10:56 AM:
What would any of YOU do if you were standing a few feet from an attacking pit bull? I would've emptied all my rounds into that dog except the one I saved for the screaming fruitcake in the background, then I would clean my shorts.
That dog attacking him is no different than an aggressive man running at him with a big knife.......what would you do?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 21, 2012, 11:16 AM:
I think koko has a very good point about the value and merits of a chemical spray. Don't they say that mace has no effect on about one out of every ten people?
I'll tell you one thing, a charging dog get's your attention real quick and responding with a bullet is okay with me. I don't care how delayed the reaction was of the other cop. I don't care that they didn't immediately check on the passed out vicim. I don't care that the dog was only protecting his master; the dog has to go.
quote:
BTW, Did I mention I don't like Screaming Broads.
And, this reminds me. That bitch needs to shut the fuck up! That's all we need in this type of situation, is a hysterical female. The goddamned dog needed to be killed. The problem is we have a bloodless society. They don't see the thousands of animals destroyed on a weekly basis. There is always a home for one more poor homeless puppy. But there ain't. One more or less friggin pit bull will not upset the balance of nature. A tear should not be shed and the mouthy bitch should be served a knuckle sandwich.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ August 21, 2012, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 21, 2012, 11:35 AM:
Hey JD, here's your post from the other "pitbull thread"
quote:
My terriers will make short work of small animals, unfortunately some peoples pets fall into that catagory, be careful. I'm a little more tolerant on the "people aggression" issue.....if you come to my house when I'm gone and you survive you WILL need stitches, if you come to my house when I'm home you will need a towel to get all the slobbers off your face, terriers are very smart and loving but they also love to kill things.....don't forget that. They also have more character than a lot of other dog breeds......you'll either love it or hate it, Terriers are not for wussies or people with no time.
In light of your post in this thread supportive of shooting a dog that was protecting it's owner, how would you feel about a cop smoking your dog in your yard for barking at him???
Say, nobody was home, your dog went to work that would "require stitches" and got dusted for it.
Please explain how one behavior is acceptable and the other not??
From one side of your mouth you brag about owning a dog will bite to protect YOU & YOURS, then turn around & speak out against this dog acting in the same fashion???
Please explain to me how you are NOT a fuggin' hypocrite!?!
[ August 21, 2012, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 21, 2012, 12:15 PM:
I thought we already established the difference between home and hearth and a public street?
Even so, if L.E. needs to investigate your castle, like to find out where the rotting smell is coming from, then your loyal protective dog is going down if it won't listen to reason.
Seems to me that owners understand that the protective shit needs to be dealt with, by mail man, FedEx, meter reader, and the guy hanging a shut off notice on your door knob. Dog owners get off on that shit, and it's something I will never understand?
Good hunting. Lima Brav 0
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 21, 2012, 12:51 PM:
Protecting its home or protecting its master is a manifestation of the same basic instinctual behavior from the dog.
Dogs are protective, or they aren't. Thats how their little pea brains work. That behavior can be encouraged, or discouraged to one's wants & desires. But any dog possessing that trait will likely revert back to its instinctual protective behavior and PROTECT his master when it deems necessary. Dogs aren't intelligent, but they are adept at 'reading' people's moods, body language, etc. So when daddy hits the sideways & starts bouncing around from a seizure, ol' Fido knows that something is wrong!
That dog in the video was showing the same protective behavior as any dog barking at a knock at the door of their home, or a tresspasser in their yard. Unless the dog is highly trained to perceive the difference, then there is no difference. They are protective by nature, or they ain't.
Can't blame a dog for trying to protect daddy on the ground...
And I agree with you about guys getting off on the protective instincts of their dogs.
I happen to like it in my dog, and I feel it is an essential characteristic for my dog to have. Do I get off on it, not really. But I will repeat again that if it were me who had the seizure, my dog woulda been shot at, too. Doubt they'd have hit him though, he'd be too quick to get hit... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
[ August 21, 2012, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 21, 2012, 01:04 PM:
Fredward, now your playing the devils advocate but I'll play along, it really is just common sense but let me defend myself against this charge of hypocrisy.......
quote:
In light of your post in this thread supportive of shooting a dog that was protecting it's owner, how would you feel about a cop smoking your dog in your yard for barking at him???
I would be pissed but a better question to answer before assuming anything is "why is a cop in my yard?" That answer will determine my answer.
quote:
Say, nobody was home, your dog went to work that would "require stitches" and got dusted for it.
I assume we are talking about the cop in my yard.....see above
quote:
Please explain how one behavior is acceptable and the other not??
From one side of your mouth you brag about owning a dog will bite to protect YOU & YOURS, then turn around & speak out against this dog acting in the same fashion???
First, I didn't brag about anything
The reason one behavior is acceptable and the other is not is simple common sense based on personal convictions......every circumstance in life is different from another, they stand alone and should be judged as such, to do any different is just laziness in my opinion. You have not nor will you ever see my dog running loose and attacking a cop or bystanders in a metro area or anywhere else for that matter.
Even if that was me laying there I can assure you my dog would not act like that, that is not a one time deal, a dog that acts that way has done it before and the owner either allowed it or encouraged it.
My dog doesn't show any aggressive behavior except when a STRANGER enters my home when I'm gone, or the dog pen......to be honest don't we all act that same way only I'll shoot someone dead instead of bite them, wouldn't you?.....maybe you're the hypocrite.....just sayin.... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Let it be known that if my dog attacked like that I would shoot it myself, there's a big damn difference between a dog protecting it's home against intruders and attacking anything that is close to it.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 21, 2012, 01:41 PM:
Your right, skip the hypotheticals.
But, that "they WILL need stiches" was braggin...just a little
As for circumstances in life being different, THEY ABSOLUTELY ARE! To human beings, but not to dogs.
Dogs brains don't work like ours.
They are instinct driven & respond to stimuli. Some behavior is learned, but the most basic canine drives are either present in the dog, or they aren't.
Dogs will have prey drive & chase game, or they won't
Dogs will have dominance drive & fight, or they won't
Dogs will protect their pack/home, or they won't.
However, dogs simply do not retain the cognitive ability that most of us humans have with regard to reacting to certain stimuli. Whatver they do 'decide', it is from learned behavior or specialized training.
That was my point.
Your's, (or anyone's) dog barking at/biting someone in their yard would be displaying the same exact response as seen by the dog in the video.
SO, unless you've gone through a massive amount of training hours teaching your dog what, who where & when to allow it's natural protection drive to surface, they you are mistaken about what a dog it is capable of.
And this is the exact reason why NO dog should EVER be fully trusted.
If your dog will go so far as to BITE a human on it's own turf, as you so eloquently and non-braggingly stated previously , then I'd bet the farm that it'd cover your azz and get protective if you stroked out & hit the canvas during a walk.
May as well dig that hole & load up the .22, cuz you're dog ain't NO DIFFERENT than that lowsy pitbull in the video. YOu know, the one you'd empty your pistola at, after soiling your britches.
Sorry to break it to ya, but that's how dogs roll. Even yours...
[ August 21, 2012, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 21, 2012, 02:37 PM:
Fred, you're kind of a Crusader, huh? I'm having a little trouble following along, but you, (apparently) love dogs, right? Unconditionally. Because they are not as smart as humans. Except poodles, which you (apparently) do not like?
Do you think the cop was justified in killing the dog, or no? Wait, wait! But, did I hear the dog recovered? So, then it was non lethal, right? haha
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
edit: quote:
Star is still alive and remains in the care of the Animal Care & Control facility on East 110th Street. Attempts to locate Star's owner have been unsuccessful so far. The Local East Village spoke to friends of the dog's owner, who police identify as Lech Stankiewicz, and they said that Star has a history of being overprotective of Stankiewicz.
[ August 21, 2012, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 21, 2012, 02:47 PM:
quote:
However, dogs simply do not retain the cognitive ability that most of us humans have with regard to reacting to certain stimuli. Whatver they do 'decide', it is from learned behavior or specialized training.
I disagree, I've had complete strangers make nice and even play with my dog in my presence but yet my father in law, who is well aquainted with my dog, will tell you that entering my house when we aren't there is a near impossibility......dogs DO understand different stimuli, maybe not to the same extent as a college graduate but certainly as much as a child.
As far as specialized training goes..... does a swift and merciless knot on the head qualify?
Seriously, if it were my dog and it attacked people in public like that I would be sad that it got shot but I would not question as to why it was shot, I have a good grasp on reality and where animals fall in the food chain, I love dogs but they are not more important than a human, even the screaming bleeding heart liberal woman in the background........now if they break into my house then all bets are off..... dial 911 bitch!!!
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 21, 2012, 02:53 PM:
quote:
NO dog should EVER be fully trusted.
I totally agree with this part of your statement, I have drilled that into the heads of my children concerning our own dogs but most certainly other peoples dogs, no matter how cute they are you should be cautious, they are animals. Of course I say the same thing about liberals.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on August 21, 2012, 03:29 PM:
Double post...carry on.
[ August 21, 2012, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Duckdog ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 21, 2012, 05:32 PM:
That's kinda profound, JD! Had not considered that, before. Liberals and dogs both possess limited intelligence and look at the world in black and white. Once they latch on to something, a leg or a flimsy concept, they just won't let go; "Bush lied, people died." "I inherited this mess" "We created 4.5 million jobs." and other ridiculous lies that only people with limited intellect would believe. And Boy! Do they believe it!
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on August 21, 2012, 06:34 PM:
and I hear they can lick their own balls...
PS - I would have shot the dog.
kj
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 21, 2012, 07:06 PM:
quote:
PS - I would have shot the dog.
Seriously Kelly? Under the circumstances portrayed in the video, or in a different scenario?
After reviewing the video, if I'm that cop's boss, his name henceforth is Barney and he better keep his 1 bullet in his shirt pocket. Add that footage to the training file and label it what not to do on a crowded street. I don't think "To protect and serve" pertains to a cop's own self at the risk of the public...screaming or not.
I would have been screaming too had I been one of those bystanders. Not for shooting the dog so much as for the lack of consideration for collateral damage. Good shot, bad idea.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on August 21, 2012, 08:05 PM:
Jim, I would have tazed the dog. Would have had it out and ready before I walked up and would expect my partner to have my back with more than some bullshit spray.
As much as I hate to be dog bit there's....
Way to many people on the street to fire a pistol round unless life was in danger.
Just last night in Lawton OK a cop took a shot at some clown and it bounced off several things before hittin a bystander.
All this kind of stuff is why I live in the country and can piss off my back porch in the mornings...
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 21, 2012, 10:32 PM:
Whew, thank goodness!
I knew even a country bumpkin from Okieland had more sense than that highly trained, big city peace officer.
If the guy loses his cool like that at the possibility of taking a bite from a 50 pound land shark, imagine how weak his knees would get when faced with a real threat. Pathetic.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 21, 2012, 11:16 PM:
I agree with the above sentiment as far as how smart it was to shoot the damned dog. They probably could have waited for somebody with a catch pole and just monitored the situation.
However, once they shot the damned dog, I'm not going to second guess it any further since the dog represents no great loss. Okay, maybe we HAVE been second guessing.
But, the dog charges and gets shot, end of problem. Now, when they sit down back at the club house and evaluate, that's when they might reflect on it and consider that they could have done it differently.
It's over folks, move on, nothing to see here.
When you use a weapon, or consider using a weapon, thinking about it too long could be a problem. I think it's okay to make a decision and do it. Some things call for action rather than debate. That's what we're here for.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 22, 2012, 12:00 AM:
quote:
I think it's okay to make a decision and do it.
Sure, as long as it's a sound decision. That wasn't. Not really much to debate. Either that cop really, really wanted to shoot his gun or he's a pussy who's so terrified of "the damned dog", he's got no business being on the job.
You wouldn't have done it and I'd be willing to bet most of the people reading this wouldn't have either. But then maybe we all have a little more experience with weapons than that douche.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 22, 2012, 05:54 AM:
Leonard, I think you may not have me as pegged as you think.
Sure, I love dogs. I don't trust anyone who doesn't like dogs.
And I've already stated, I'd shoot my own damn dog if I deemed it necessary. I do not hold the life of my dog, or any other animal over the life of a human being, nor have I ever equated the two. So please refrain from lumping me in together with many of the liberal, bleeding heart ingnoramuses with whom I happen to share a state of residence with. I'm more more redneck than most of the country bumpkin rednecks I hang out with upstate and they'll tell ya the same...
Here's my final thoughts on the video
1. The dog was protecting it's master. Whatever 'aggression' the dog in the video exhibited toward the onlookers & cops was fueled by a drive to protect it's master. Pretty simple concept to grasp.
2. I do not consider a dog protecting its master, home, or otherwise to be in the same category as a dog outright attacking a human. The former I think is an admirable trait in any dog, the latter is grounds for a lead supplement.
3. I feel that the cop opening fire was not the way to handle the situation with the dog. Because:
___A. this was a crowded city street, full of people. The direction of fire was TOWARD those people! That was a hotshot, dimwitted cowboy maneuver if I ever saw one.
___B. the dog did not represent a lethal threat to the officer that shot it. Handling a non-lethal threat with lethal force is not my idea of fine police work.
___C. the excuse for shooting the dog in order to make way for EMS to tend to the downed man is FUCKING BULLSHIT. Dog gets kilt, and guy remains on the concrete unattended for damn near 5 full minutes after his dog gets shot.
4. IF the dog were ANY different breed, I sincerely doubt the cop would have panicked (my opinion) and resorted to gunfire to handle the situation.
5. For all you cowboys who said you'd have shot the dog under those same circumstances on a crowded city street full of human beings (liberal or otherwise), I must take into question your judgement skills with regard to firearms handling. For Crissake, the cop shot TOWARD a sidewalk full of people!!! At a barking dog???
THAT WAS A GOOD IDEA?
Skip the mace, skip the baton & OPEN FIRE on a fukkin' DOG?
Seriously???
If you guys think that opening fire under those SPECIFIC circumstances was a good idea, I think you might have a bright, yet brief career ahead of you as a target puller on a live fire gun range. Cuz you sure put alot of trust in somebody else wielding and firing friggin' gun in the direction of human beings...
I"m out.
___
[ August 22, 2012, 06:00 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 22, 2012, 08:10 AM:
There have been some good points made on both sides of this fence. I think that the cop was screwed from the git-go no matter what he did.
Does anybody know what the official police ruling on the shooting was????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 22, 2012, 08:13 AM:
Star didn't make it. Fred will host the memorial service the day after tomorrow at 1:00, bring a small baggie of kibble to symbolically throw in the grave, Jimanez and the Rev Al will eulogize. That's all I got.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 22, 2012, 10:47 AM:
This is a case where something was avoided and now we have to decide whether a tragedy was avoided or a cop was irresponsible......I say a little of both.
What if someone had shot the killer in Aurora Co. before he even had time to shoot one of his victims........wouldn't the liberals absolutely crucify the person with a gun who shot him, after all there would be no proof that a tragedy would've happened.
I garee with LB, I'm sure there was a pow wow and protocols discussed over this deal. I would also add that being attacked by a pitbull is worthy of a little more concern than just any old mutt that snaps at you.
Tazing a dog may make things worse yet, they seem to shake it off rather quickly.
http://youtu.be/zBQ7qIJGhQs
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 22, 2012, 02:59 PM:
All I know is that when the Deputy tased my (former) neighbor's dog it hit the ground instantly and learned to spell `docile` in three languages. Even after the sparks quit flying all that dog wanted was to be invisible.
The problem with the taser is that you're betting a whole lot that both leads will hit and stick.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on August 22, 2012, 03:56 PM:
quote:
Does anybody know what the official police ruling on the shooting was????
I don't think there will be an official ruling Koko. The officer destroyed an animal that was showing aggressive tendencies at a scene. End of story. The officer may take some backlash for unleashing a round on a crowded city street, but that's probably about it.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 22, 2012, 07:46 PM:
See Leonerd, I knew it would happen sooner or later.
A lame attempt at belittling Fred and I for not accepting that the dog should have been gunned down on a street full of onlookers is not how the big boys do it. Strictly my opinion you understand. If that was all you had, you shoulda saved it.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 22, 2012, 08:51 PM:
Whatever? Belittling is in your own mind. The fucking dog isn't worth the argument. Beyond that, I don't get your point. Do you think I had 49 post that clip so I could belittle the two pit bull fan boys? Thanks a lot.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 22, 2012, 09:23 PM:
Lot's of things I don't understand here.
As a dog lover who lost my dog of 2 weeks shy of 15 years back in May and cried like a baby, I would have shot any dog who charged me. Fred it quit being a bluff charge when he bit the ladies pants, he bit and even though he was barking, he was gonna bite again.
I am responsible for my shots. If that wasn't a protective pit bull and instead was a knife wielding druggy, would you still hold your shot because there were bystanders that might be hit by ricochet? The cop reacted to a direct threat, his partner showed delayed reaction, even though he wasn't the intended target. The officer did more right than wrong and did it under stress.
I'm a runner and was talking to prune picker the other night, I'm looking for a light pistol to carry mainly for dogs. I've been chased by 3 dogs that I was able to stand off. I had a stray follow me but he was no threat, just needed a friend. I had a guy almost lose his german shepard's leash when the dog saw me, I would have shot him rather than being bitten. Who wouldn't?
Having a dog that will protect you, endangers the dogs life. It's a fact that you must deal with, especially if you plan on taking him out in public. No fault of the dog, just a poor choice of the owner.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 22, 2012, 09:26 PM:
And 49, quit baiting me, I'm trying to be nice to cops.
CCP; "BTW what are you guys thoughts on shooting neighboring dogs that cross into your deer hunting lease."
We shoot em here if they have been running cattle or show any signs of aggression. If they are just making the rounds, no problem with them.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on August 23, 2012, 08:14 AM:
I was done, but just wanted to address your post, Tom.
For one, getting a carry permit for Queens borough of NYC where I work isn't going to happen, thaks to our dickweed mayor. So, having a dog that will protect me & our shop is a valid, sensible & legal alternative. Lots of unsavories around our commercial area, so having a dog walking 'on point' and present at the shop is 100% worth the risk of him ever biting someone who may need biting. I fully accept responsibility for my dog and, for the 3rd time, will pop a cap in his brainpan if I think he's gone full retard without provocation...
Secondly, your premise about comparing a knife wielding criminal to a dog is flawed. Simply not a valid comparison and frankly not even within the same realm of engagement. Not only is a human with a knife more potentially dangerous & lethal, he'd also pose a much larger target to catch a bullet. So yes, I'd fukkin' drop a knife wielding looney waay before I'd shoot ANY breed of dog.
Lethal threat = deadly force.
Non lethal threat = non lethal alternatives...
BTW, NYC cops just did shoot a knife wielding guy couple weeks back. But they actually followed him & kept distance for several blocks before taking him down with a bullet. Gunfire was a last resort, not the primary knee-jerk reaction, as seen against the dog in the video. But again, the two scenarios & how to deal with them are completely different, in my opinion...
And Leonard, yep I do love pitbull dogs. Love 'em so much I won't own one anymore! Cuz seemingly every other person on the planet has been friggin' brainwashed into reacting toward one like a housewife does a mouse running across the kitchen floor...EEEKKK!
They're just dogs, for pete's sake. I didn't see that one in the video shake off a bullet, so that pretty much dispells the nonsense about their invincibility, no?
In closing, my shared thoughts on the video would not have changed if it were any other breed of dog, even a poodle . The siituation did not warrant gunfire. Not on a city street, it didn't...
OK, now I'm really done
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 23, 2012, 10:21 AM:
Yes, PIT BULL EEK! Guilty!
(atten: Jim/Fred, PLEASE GORE MY OX) Thank you
I may have said before, I'd be okay with a complete extermination. We don't need that breed, totally ruined by owners that get off on viscous dogs, enhancing their reputation and dropping questionable elements into the gene pool.
We have WAY more pit bulls than needed. The shelters are full of them and they will never be placed. People didn't want them in the first place and nobody is nuts enough to take on the responsibility of adopting.
It's a shame, really. I know there are decent dogs that wouldn't hurt a flea, under normal circumstances. But, there are numerous accounts where loving family members revert and kill a child, as a way of protecting it.. As far as I'm concerned, it's like letting the child play with a loaded gun.
If we could replace every fucking pit bull with a yellow lab or Golden Retriever, the world would be a better place.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 23, 2012, 11:30 AM:
Awwwwwww.....................Now you gone and hurt Kay-Nine's itty bitty feelings.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 23, 2012, 12:10 PM:
On my last trip to Alaska i went fishing with my family of displaced Okies. On a "secret" beach on the Kenai i got my first taste of a Pit Bull. On the first night, i went to bed early (in a tent), the others stayed up late. At appx 4am i feel something scratching the hell out of me from outside of the tent. I got up really quick!, reaching for a pistol only to hear a dog whine. It's pouring down rain and 36*. While unzipping the tent door i was face to face with ole' Dude, we had a stare down for a couple of seconds, then he bolted straight for me and my sleeping bag! After said incident with ole'Dude i couldn't do anything without him tailing my every move. He slept on my pillow, guarded my fishing pole, wouldn't eat unless i fed him etc.
For the next 2 weeks no one crowded me.
After i left, i was told he carried my pillow everywhere until it feel apart.
Not all dogs are bad, but ignorant people who don't properly care for them should be beaten on a regular schedule for being stupid.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 23, 2012, 12:34 PM:
Fred, I would gladly take on two knife wielding druggies than prune pickers last rotty. That dog was lethal and even though he knew me and I liked him, I always had a pistol on me when I would visit.
Most pit bulls are not the evil they are portrayed but I've seen a few who's owners needed to be shot. One belonged to a neighbor 25 years ago and maybe he's why I don't trust them. His owner was happy to tell me I'd have to shoot him to stop the attack. After I told him I would and then would shoot him right after that, he no longer felt the need to show how mean the dog was. Maybe he believed me, he should have.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 23, 2012, 03:16 PM:
quote:
His owner was happy to tell me I'd have to shoot him to stop the attack. After I told him I would and then would shoot him right after that, he no longer felt the need to show how mean the dog was. Maybe he believed me, he should have.
This is the essence of the whole enchilada. It's people and their fucking macho dogs. They get off on owning a viscous dog. I think it's sick.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
edit: come on Fred! Don't let me down, we can go three more pages.
[ August 23, 2012, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 23, 2012, 04:07 PM:
I need to add that the Pit Bull i spoke of in Alaska (Dude) had been Tattoo'd (kill list) in one ear when my intro to him happened. I didn't know that at that time, but when a Game Warden drove by his (dogs) owner freeked, yelling "put him on a leash". Granted we were in a bear area and i'm glad he was there, but i'm really glad the dog liked me!
Moving on to my dogs, i live in the country. IF i lived in town i prob never would have allowed a big dog in my home. And i know for a fact that my rott has stopped 2 break in's, because the would be robbers had to jump the fence to get in. When they did the deed, they got the shit bit out of them. The Sheriff (a friend) did get called to protect me from a lawsuit by charging the idiots with felonous breaking and entering.
And neither my step son nor my wife ever worried about being alone here when the dog (Monk) was alive.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 23, 2012, 07:05 PM:
This reminds me about the joke.. mean pit bull versus an ugly yellow dog. Ugly yellow dog chomps the pit bull and end of contest. When the pit bull's owner says Dang! What kind of dog is that? The other guy says, Well, I'm not sure? But before we cut off his tail and painted him yellow, he was an alligator. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
[ August 23, 2012, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 23, 2012, 07:33 PM:
3 more pages huh? We need to get back to bashing the ignorant Liberals and let the poor misunderstood Pit Bulls fade into the sunset.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 23, 2012, 08:05 PM:
Cocker Spaniels should be shot too, noisy bastards are always barking and if you give them the stink eye they roll over and piss themselves.......worthless noisy little PIAs
On another note.....the black lab down the street likes to chase my motorcycle, which is really a pain because its a rural area and there is a block of gravel so I kinda have to go slow. Anyways I discovered that if you smash second gear on a 106 cubic inch V twin it will turn gravel into projectiles capable of injuring a dog and sending him yelping for a half a block......he don't chase me on the bobber no more.
Forget dogs......what about cats.....I would love to see a video of cops unloading on a cat in downtown NY.....how cool would that be?
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on August 23, 2012, 08:56 PM:
That is some funny stuff Jason !
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on August 24, 2012, 02:35 AM:
why was that dog off a leash??.
JD. you spelled agreed wrong
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on August 24, 2012, 12:25 PM:
Apparently that training video I mentioned before hasn't made the rounds yet. Biggest joke is that Bloomberg is praising his boys in blue for their quick and heroic action despite the innocents who "may" have been hit by popo boolits.
Totally different situation, but c'mon with the blazing away in crowds. I've heard that the guy was fleeing, so it's not like he was engaging the cops. Who knows, maybe the info I've heard is wrong.
So much for strict gun control stopping this kind of lunacy. Speak up Mr. Mayor, we can't hear you.
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