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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on August 04, 2012, 05:17 AM:
Here's one I came across that ought to fit this group to a "T".
How to stop a robbery (PG-13 edition with improved sound effects) - YouTube
www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4&feature=yout.be
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on August 04, 2012, 06:39 AM:
Grandpa wasn't a very good shot IMHO but he had True Grit. That first shot should have connected and also should have used the counter for cover, but who thinks in these types of situations.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 04, 2012, 07:10 AM:
Yeah, we can hind-sight the old boy to death but the fact remains.........he got up in the face of armed turds and did what needed to be done.
The man is a hero; plain & simple.
Now......can anybody tell what kind of gun he was carrying?? Have the news people said anything about the caliber he was shooting??
And with no disrespect toward the law enforcement types that hang out here, I have to say that I've seen videos of trained police officers in shoot-outs that didn't do any better.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 04, 2012, 08:33 AM:
Seen that vid. before. The old guy handled himself pretty well..
Looks like he was shooting a 32 cal. semi-auto..
A couple questions come to mind though.
Wounder were the bullets went from all the missed shots, lucky no-one was hit..
I see he was protecting himself and others at one point, but once he started chaseing the robbers out the door he is no longer doing that but becomeing a bad guy or killer himself...
Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on August 04, 2012, 10:11 AM:
i wouldnt care where the stray bullets went, i would rather be shot by him trying to protect the people in there then by the turd with the sawed off shotgun, and tim what says if he stopped shooting before they are out the door that they wouldnt just turn around and start stooting back? shoot till the threat is gone
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 04, 2012, 10:31 AM:
I have no problem with that, but the courts may look at it a little differently and the parents of some kid that may get hit by a stray bullet...
Oh! Tech. the threat ended the minute the bad guys went out the door anything after that the defender is playing jury, judge and executioner which kinda goes against the same rights that allow you to carry a firearm for defense... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ August 04, 2012, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2012, 11:55 AM:
Yeah, look how a simple self defense when a poor innocent black boy after a month and a half of agitation can convince the authorities to take another look with a different point of view provided by rabble rousing "leaders" (you know who they are) Obama! "could have been his own son, the one he never had". He did the same thing with the NWA professor that got himself arrested, said the police overreacted when it was obvious to everybody else that Obama overreacted.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 04, 2012, 12:56 PM:
Tim;
I can understand your comments, somewhat.
Three things to remember if you ever need to use a weapon in self-defense. (This came from a friend who was pretty far up the food chain in LAPD)
(1) I was scared.
(2) I don't remember.
(3) Is the guy gonna be ok?
It doesn't matter if you just cut some dirt-bag in half with a shotgun filled with coyote loads. You establish that you feared for your life. After that, you don't remember. Yes, you fired your weapon but it must have jammed 'cause it doesn't shoot anymore. {It doesn't shoot because you emptied the clip} No, I don't remember how many times I shot. And last, show concern and compassion for 'the guy'. Is he gonna be ok?? Why did he........?? No bragging. No macho shit. And NO GLORY PHOTOS!!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2012, 02:04 PM:
Man, I'm going to have that advice laminated for my wallet!
And, it don't matter if he's a shrimp or a girl?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2012, 02:22 PM:
By the way....what were you doing in that Internet Cafe, Al? Long ways from home.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on August 04, 2012, 02:45 PM:
No, Leonard, I wasn't a long way from home at all. A friend sent that one some time ago. Now, if you are insinuating I was the old geezer doing the shooting, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on August 04, 2012, 03:27 PM:
Since we are being technical Tim, the fact is that in most states injuries/deaths occuring during the commission of a felony are the responsibility of those committing the felony. So, don't hang out your law 'shingle' yet; stick to teaching the 'how to be a helpless victim' classes.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 04, 2012, 03:29 PM:
Yeah Koko I some what agree.. The thing is you may have to prove the threat was great enough to a jury and also convince them it was justifyable..
It seems everyone has the just shoot down pat but have'nt thought about what can and will happen for there actions..
If I'm protecting myself then yep I'm going to bang away at the bad guy but on the same note if others are envolved then I may take a step back..
Alot of variables on where and when its takeing place.. You also have to keep in mind even criminals have rights and I don't agree that they should but they do...
I go by the rules of engagement given to me when in the service: Prevention of rape, fear for my life or a family member. If the bad guy flees the scene engagement will cease and law enforcement shall be called...
Here is some of Mn.laws on the matter.
S.F. No. 893, as introduced - 86th Legislative Session (2009-2010) [09-1054]
A bill for an act
relating to public safety; clarifying law on use of force in defense of home and
person; codifying and extending Minnesota's self-defense and defense of home
laws; eliminating the common law duty to retreat in cases of self defense outside
the home; expanding the boundaries of dwelling; creating a presumption in the
case of a person entering a dwelling or occupied vehicle by force; extending the
rights available to a person in his or her dwelling to a person defending against
entry of his or her occupied vehicle; amending Minnesota Statutes 2008, section
609.065.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF MINNESOTA:
Section 1. Minnesota Statutes 2008, section 609.065, is amended to read:
609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE USE OF DEADLY FORCE IN
SELF DEFENSE.
Subdivision 1. Definitions. The intentional taking of the life of another is not
authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense
which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or
death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode. (a) For
purposes of this section, the following terms have the meanings given them.
(b) "Substantial bodily harm" and "great bodily harm" have the meanings given
them in section 609.02, subdivisions 7a and 8, respectively.
(c) "Court order" means an order for protection or no contact order issued under
section 518B.01, or a restraining order or no contact order issued under section 609.748,
or a substantively similar order issued by any court in any state.
(d) "Deadly force" means force used by an individual with the purpose of causing,
or which the individual should reasonably know creates a substantial risk of causing,
great bodily harm or death. The intentional discharge of a firearm by an individual at
another person, or at a vehicle in which another person is believed 2.1 to be, constitutes
deadly force. A threat to cause great bodily harm or death, by the production of a weapon
or otherwise, constitutes reasonable force and not deadly force, so long as the individual's
objective is limited to creating an expectation that the individual will use deadly force if
authorized by law.
(e) "Dwelling" means a building or a conveyance of any kind, designed to be
occupied by one or more persons lodging therein, including its curtilage and any attached
deck, porch, appurtenance, or connected structure, whether the building or conveyance is
used temporarily or permanently, is mobile or immobile, or is a tent.
(f) "Felony" has the meaning given in section 609.02, subdivision 2.
(g) "Vehicle" means "motor vehicle" as defined in section 168.002, subdivision 18.
Subd. 2. Circumstances when authorized. The use of deadly force by an
individual in self defense is authorized by this section when the act is undertaken:
(1) to resist or prevent an offense or attempted offense by an assailant, which the
individual reasonably believes constitutes an imminent threat that exposes the individual
or another person to substantial or great bodily harm or death; or
(2) to resist or prevent the commission, in the individual's dwelling or occupied
vehicle, of an offense or attempted offense that the individual reasonably believes is
a felony.
Subd. 3. Degree of force; retreat. An individual using defensive action under
circumstances described in subdivision 2 may stand the individual's ground in any place
where the individual has a legal right to be, and may use all force and means, including
deadly force, that the individual believes is required to succeed in defense. The individual
may meet force with superior force, so long as the individual's objective is defense.
The individual is not required to retreat, and may continue defensive actions against an
assailant until the assailant is no longer an imminent threat.
Subd. 4. Presumptions. (a) A person who enters or attempts to enter by force or by
stealth the dwelling or occupied vehicle of another person is presumed to do so with the
intent to commit an unlawful act involving a life-threatening level of force.
(b) An individual using deadly force is presumed to possess a reasonable belief
that there exists an imminent threat of substantial or great bodily harm or death to the
individual or another person, if the individual knows or has reason to know that:
(1) the person against whom the defensive action is being taken is entering or
attempting to enter by force or by stealth, or has entered by force or by stealth and remains
within, the dwelling or occupied vehicle of the individual or other person; or
(2) the person against whom the defensive action is being 3.1 taken is in the process
of removing or attempting to remove by force the individual or another person from the
dwelling or occupied vehicle of the individual or other person.
(c) The individual is not entitled to the benefit of the presumption set forth in
paragraph (b) if the individual knows that the person against whom the defensive action
is being taken:
(1) is a lawful resident of the dwelling or a lawful possessor of the vehicle, or is
otherwise lawfully permitted to enter the dwelling or vehicle; or
(2) is the parent, grandparent, or guardian, or another person who has lawful custody
of the person being removed or being sought to be removed from the dwelling or vehicle.
A person who is prohibited by a court order from contacting another individual or
from entering a dwelling or possessing a vehicle of another individual is not a lawful
resident of that individual's dwelling and is not a lawful possessor of that individual's
vehicle.
Subd. 5. Criminal investigation; immunity from prosecution. (a) An individual
who uses deadly force according to this section is justified in using such force and is
immune from any criminal prosecution for that act.
(b) A law enforcement agency may arrest a person using force under circumstances
described in this section only after considering any claims or circumstances supporting
self-defense.
EFFECTIVE DATE. This section is effective August 1, 2009, and applies to
qualifying uses of deadly force occurring on or after that date.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 04, 2012, 04:09 PM:
All well & good..........except;
"When the bad guy flees the scene, engagement shall cease".
Here's where I have a problem with that; bad guy fleeing the scene....and is still armed, can still turn, and can still fire, and is therefore still a potential deadly threat.
My feeling is the best course of action is to continue firing until;
There are no more threats.
There is no more ammo to shoot.
or
The turd has disarmed himself, surrendered, and assumed a position of submission.
But, hey; I was scared & I don't remember exactly what happened.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2012, 05:04 PM:
I know a guy, Italian (of course) who was dicking somebody's wife when the husband came home unexpectedly. He hid in the bedroom closet, (I think naked) and I guess there was some evidence, car out front, wife naked and nervous so he started looking around. Joe, in the closet grabbed a 22 rifle in the corner and when the dead guy opened the door he shot him once in the chest. This is a true story, I hunted with the guy, once. Before.
So far as I know, nothing ever came of it, self defense and he was scared, etc.?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 04, 2012, 05:27 PM:
I don't know a guy, but I know OF a guy - smallish sized guy - who spent part of a Friday night taking shit from anothe guy - redneck sort - who was pissed because the small guy had been seeing his ex squeeze. The guy threatened to kick his ass and was pretty much set on doing it then and there. A couple other guys intervened, held onto the redneck and very quickly convinced small guy to go home. He did, but not before redneck made the statement for everyone to hear that he knew where the guy lived and was coming to his house to "fuck him up".
Well, turns out that he made good on that promise and got there no more than five minutes after little guy got home. Plenty of time for little guy to arm himself in self defense and when redneck kicked in his front door and let himself in, little guy met him with a single round through center mass from his .30-06 hunting rifle at about 4 paces.
Little guy won. County attorney came to the scene, personally interviewed the little guy and made the decision within the hour that it was self defense and no charges would be filed. And, they weren't.
About a month ago, my son had a dust up with several other guys. At about five in the morning, three of them showed up on my front steps kicking on my front door. All sober. I opened the door and told them they needed to get back into their vehicle and leave. They protested. I advised them that my wife was calling 911 to get a couple ambulance enroute and they said, "we don't need a fucking ambulane!" to whioch I said, "In about three seconds, at least one of you are because I'm fixing to invoke the castle doctrine on your asses. One says, "WTF is that?" to which I said, "I'm gonna make you Treyvon Walker famous, dumbass". They knew what that meant. The next weekend, I find an empty beer can by my back gate of a brand no one I know drinks. My son confirms that one of these guys drinks that brand, so I called PD and they sent a buddy up. I told him to pass it along to these fine young men that there were no second chances. If I find them on my property - they'd already beaten my boy down once and I would consider their presence a threat of violence against me and my family and take appropriate actions. My buddy actually went to their house and told them that I had threatened to use deadly force if I saw them on my property and that he thought it was a good idea for them to stay clear. When they asked him if I can make a threat like that, he said that he just told them that on he was betting that I was much better armed than they are and that he wouldn't press things. The PD hates those bastards as much as I do and hauling one or two off in a leak proof bag wouldn't cause them any grief.
Sadly, I almost agree with Tim. Once the dirtbag is going away, there comes a point where the engagement is over. You can sue anyone for anyone in civil court and all you need is a preponderance of evidence to go with half the jury plus one. Stay in the fight too long and you may end up making his dirt bag family wealthy. I think training would have you manage the threat until it leaves or is dead then take up a defensive position until help arrives. I don't agree with that, but it seems more lawyer proof.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 04, 2012, 09:01 PM:
....which fits nicely with advice I have heard, for a long time; a dead man's story is hard to understand, so make sure your first shot counts.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 04, 2012, 09:06 PM:
Yes, Tim does have a point about when to end an engagement. Take another look at the video clip in the start of this thread. Technically, was the elderly hero guilty of attempted murder when he fired that last shot??? Not to my way of thinking.
Someone would need to give me good reason to fire a weapon at them. But....once that reason has been given, it's going to take an even better reason for me to stop shooting.
When it's finally over and the nice officer asks why I kept shooting........."I was scared 'cause he was gonna kill me and I don't much remember exactly what all happened then".
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on August 04, 2012, 09:36 PM:
My cousin killed a guy one night and the first thing he had to do after the dust settled was call his lawyer.
And he wore a badge at the time...
Yes if you have to shoot someone, you better be legit or there will be consequences but if you hesitate and think the laws over, you might need an undertaker instead of a lawyer.
It's a cruel world, shoot quick and shoot straight.
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on August 06, 2012, 04:05 PM:
Here is another from today.Appears the news media guy doesn't like people defending themselves. Seems to be better to be a helpless victim. Asshats...
65 year old stops robbery
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 06, 2012, 04:52 PM:
I saw that on local news, ( yesterday, I think?)
Garden Grove is almost 100% Asian, Viet Namese and Chinese.
Good hunting. LB
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